Stone Glacier Terminus Review

[B_Reynolds_AK]

I had same experience in extended rain, setting bag down in wet areas, etc - bottom of bag had some water pooled in it. A lot more than I was expecting honestly.

There are drain holes in the bottom in order for the internal load cell to drain blood. However the lighter weight Ultra fabric that the load cell is made of is actually not waterproof as intended. The first time I carried sheep meat in game bags in there, and there wasnt a lot of bood draining from them anyhow, blood soaked through the fabric onto gear that was inside the bag. You really need to put game bags into a trash or dry bag before putting it into the load cell. Point being, water could thus get in through the bottom of the bag and then into the main bag.

 

[AK Troutbum]

There are drain holes in the bottom in order for the internal load cell to drain blood. However the lighter weight Ultra fabric that the load cell is made of is actually not waterproof as intended. The first time I carried sheep meat in game bags in there, and there wasnt a lot of bood draining from them anyhow, blood soaked through the fabric onto gear that was inside the bag. You really need to put game bags into a trash or dry bag before putting it into the load cell. Point being, water could thus get in through the bottom of the bag and then into the main bag.

Damn, that’s a design flaw IMO. I had the day off today, and nothing better to do, so I stuffed my bag full of pillows (almost to where the bag was bursting at the seams), and painted every seam on it with Seam Grip Sil. I don’t expect it to function as a dry bag, but if it takes in water with just normal hiking around in wet conditions, I’m going to be a little disappointed. As far as blood leaching through the inner load cell, that’s bullshit IMO. What’s the point of a dedicated internal load cell, if it’s not going to keep blood off of everything else that’s in the pack? I’m really having a hard time understanding why they would put a material in there that isn’t water proof. Again, I haven’t had a chance to field test this bag out yet, but when l blow into the material that separates the load cell from the inner part of the bag, I’m not able to push air through it, so it appears that it should also be waterproof. I have several SG bags and a couple frames, that work very well for me and I’m very happy with, but I liked the idea of the WP material on the new Terminus, along with it being lighter weight, so figured I’d give it a go. I’m really hoping that it doesn’t disappoint.

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[ljalberta]

I also had a sheep stuffed in some TAG bags and then in the sleeve. I mistakenly thought it was waterproof. My gear had quite the blood soak to it and I had some pools of blood in the bottom of the main bag. It was a bit of an issue as it was a 3 day pack out.

Overall absolutely love the bag, but if the internal sleeve was fully water proof, that would be the cherry on top.

 

[slick]

Man, I hate being a company's guinea pig. SG is usually good about not subjecting its customers to that.

@Kurt or any Stone Glacier Rep have anything to add?

 

[AK Troutbum]

I just spoke with a guy at SG and he stated that the material for the load cell is 100% waterproof, but that the seams are not sealed. So, according to him, the only leaking of blood would occur along the two side seams, bottom seam, and two bottom grommets (that are there to drain blood). I think I'll go ahead and seam seal the inside of the load cell seams, in the hopes of eliminating any chance of blood inside the pack.

 

[slick]

Wild. You'd think that would have been a priority for them.

 

[B_Reynolds_AK]

I just spoke with a guy at SG and he stated that the material for the load cell is 100% waterproof, but that the seams are not sealed. So, according to him, the only leaking of blood would occur along the two side seams, bottom seam, and two bottom grommets (that are there to drain blood). I think I'll go ahead and seam seal the inside of the load cell seams, in the hopes of eliminating any chance of blood inside the pack.

Interesting. I'm not 100% convinced, but I'll do the same as you and try it out. Headed to Kodiak on monday for archery goat and deer, so most likely will get to try it out.

 

[ljalberta]

Interesting indeed. I had a decent amount of blood soak into my gear and pool in the bottom. I suspect it might be difficult to completely seam seal some of those seams, but please let us know how it turns out for you.

I will say that I am a big fan of the grommet drain holes and at least had a good experience with those compared to you B Reynolds. Although I got blood in my bag, a bunch dripped right out those drain holes. I don’t think I would have noticed except for the fact my butt and pants were stained red by it.

 

[thinhorn_AK]

What a bunch of bullshit. How much is that weight savings worth?

 

[sr80]

one would think they would of seemed sealed that inner meat compartment. Regardless if they did or not I would still line my bag with a trash bag before putting COOL meat inside my pack. Always have and always will just to be safe.

 

[Kurt]

@ Slick,

Yes, I have a lot to add to this conversation.

As mentioned before in this thread, the Terminus is not intended to be waterproof, which is why we do not advertise or suggest that it be used without a rain cover. The fabric choice was not based on building a waterproof pack, it was based off wear resistance in comparison to weight. Our customer base is very technically educated, so seeing that Ultra is laminate, the next question is if the fabric is waterproof. Ultra fabric is waterproof as tested per ASTM testing.

Also as mentioned, the seams are not seam taped. This is because technology and seam tape options are not available to seam tape these fabrics with these seams. There are some tapes that can be used on a standard flat seam that are not heavy load bearing, but not complex seam construction under stress. This was not a choice, it came down to there is no option that is durable enough to use in load carrying backpack. There are many technical specs about the seams that are unique to tape over, like taping multiple layers of webbing, matching multiple fabrics with one seam tape, and tight radiuses that cause tape bunch and delaminate. This is simply a technology that has not been developed for this type of construction. There are several options that could work on a lighter duty piece of gear with simple top stitch seams, but nothing that I would trust to sell to our customers with expectation it will be waterproof and remain waterproof for the life of the pack. You can add a sealant from the outside, however it is not as durable, on the exterior face, very susceptible to wear, will eventually leak, and will likely need to be applied several times over the life of the pack. Ultimately the best option when dealing with rain is use a 3.5 oz rain cover and solve the issue.

There are questions if the Internal Load Cell fabric is waterproof. The fabric is a 250 denier coated fabric, per ASTM waterproof testing and achieves a rating of 150 psi/ 10.3 bar. Many of us are very familiar with mmH20 measurement in in regards to raingear specs. Most upper level raingear specs will hover in the 25,000 – 35,000 mmH2O rating. If we convert 150 psi to mmH2O, we get a rating of 105,400 mmH2O, 3 to 4 times that of quality raingear. So yes, by all quantified industry standards, the internal load cell is waterproof and performs at the upper level of waterproof fabrics.

In regards to AKTroutbum comment, you should be happy to know the fabric is rated as waterproof per ASTM standards, I would be happy to forward along further technical information if needed. In regard to blood being on the gear inside the pack, I would welcome a conversation to discuss details on the situation. Without knowing all circumstances, I cannot assume to know what was going on.

Once again, we are having the same discussion of seam tape sealing seams of the load cell. The load cell is sewn to the frame, the load cell is also made from one continuous piece of fabric so the only seam is directly to the frame. I took every precaution possible to reduce any leakage including drain holes. However, without a proven and available seam sealing process/technology, no seam on the Terminus can be 100% waterproof. This is no different from our other packs, there are seams on the Xpac back panel of all packs, these are not waterproof.


@ Slick – I wanted to give a little background information about my design and testing process of the Terminus that may help. I did all the design work, patterning, fabric testing, sewing prototypes, and a majority of the infield testing of the Terminus until I was at the final design, then got prototypes to others for testing. This process took just over 2 years, I have almost as much time into the Terminus as I did my first pack 10 years ago. This time was not only in the design room and behind the sewing machine, but also an enormous amount sweat equity carrying the pack under load. So in reference to your comment about “using SG customers as guinea pig”, this comment does not accurately describe the design process for the Terminus.


@thinhorn_AK – Unfortunately there is not an acceptable seam sealing process per fabric manufacturers, therefore it was not a decision of whether to add seam sealing or save weight. What would be a mistake in my opinion is it to use a sub-par seam sealing process that is not designed to hold up to abuse hunters will put it through, then sell it to customers with an expectation it will perform. This is not to say I will not continue to look for and develop a sealing process, however it will need to be adequately tested before I will trust it for our customers.


I understand that there may be questions on design, however sometimes the true design features and path to the design are quite complex and not as simple as face value might suggest. I am always available to discuss these points, so please feel free to reach out if I can help.

Best

Kurt


[email protected]

 

[Marbles]

@ Slick,

Yes, I have a lot to add to this conversation.

As mentioned before in this thread, the Terminus is not intended to be waterproof, nor do we advertise or suggest that it be used without a rain cover. The fabric choice was not based on building a waterproof pack, it was based off wear resistance in comparison to weight. Our customer base is very technically educated, so seeing that Ultra is laminate, the next question is if the fabric is waterproof. Ultra fabric is waterproof as tested per ASTM testing.

Also as mentioned, the seams are not seam taped. Why? Because technology and seam tape options are not available to seam tape these fabrics with these seams. There are some tapes that can be used on a standard flat seam that are not heavy load bearing, but not complex seam construction under stress. This was not a choice, it came down to there is no option that is durable enough to use in load carrying backpack. There are many technical specs about the seams that are unique to tape over, like taping multiple layers of webbing, matching multiple fabrics with one seam tape, and tight radiuses that cause tape bunch and delaminate. This is simply a technology that has not been developed for this type of construction. There are several options that could work on a lighter duty piece of gear with simple top stitch seams, but nothing that I would trust to sell to our customers with expectation it will be waterproof and remain waterproof for the life of the pack. You can add a sealant from the outside, however it is not as durable, on the exterior face, very susceptible to wear, will eventually leak, and will likely need to be applied several times over the life of the pack. Ultimately the best option when dealing with rain is the same as when we released the pack, use a 3.5 oz rain cover and solve the issue.

There are questions if the Internal Load Cell fabric is waterproof. The fabric is a 250 denier coated fabric, per ASTM waterproof testing and achieves a rating of 150 psi/ 10.3 bar. Many of us are very familiar with mmH20 measurement in in regards to raingear specs. Most upper level raingear specs will hover in the 25,000 – 35,000 mmH2O rating. If we convert 150 psi to mmH2O, we get a rating of 105,400 mmH2O, 3 to 4 times that of quality raingear. So yes, by all quantified industry standards, the internal load cell is waterproof and performs at the upper level of waterproof fabrics.

In regards to AKTroutbum comment of not using a waterproof fabric on the load cell being “bullshit”, you should be happy to know the fabric is rated as waterproof per ASTM standards, I would be happy to forward along further technical information if needed. In regard to blood being on the gear inside the pack, I would welcome a conversation to discuss details on the situation. Without knowing all circumstances, I cannot assume to know what was going on.

Once again, we are having the same discussion of seam tape sealing seams of the load cell. The load cell is sewn to the frame, the load cell is also made from one continuous piece of fabric so the only seam is directly to the frame. I took every precaution possible to reduce any leakage including drain holes. However, without a proven and available seam sealing process/technology, no seam on the Terminus can be 100% waterproof. This is no different from our other packs, there are seams on the Xpac back panel of all packs, these are not waterproof.


@ Slick – I understand that sometimes comments are made without adequate information, however I prefer comments/opinions that are based on factual information. Some factual information about my design and testing process of the Terminus that may help. I did all the design work, patterning, fabric testing, sewing prototypes, and a majority of the infield testing of the Terminus until I was at the final design, then got prototypes to others for testing. This process took just over 2 years, I have almost as much time into the Terminus as I did my first pack 10 years ago. This time was not only in the design room and behind the sewing machine, but also an enormous amount sweat equity carrying the pack under load. So in reference to your comment about “using SG customers as guinea pig”, this is not correct and far from accurately describes the design process for the Terminus, or any of our other products for that matter. It is disappointing to hear someone jump to that conclusion, I am not sure what would lead you to believe that, but I hope this background helps.


@thinhorn_AK – Again, there is not an acceptable seam sealing process per fabric manufacturers, therefore it was not a decision of whether to add seam sealing or save weight. What would be “bullshit” (as you stated) in my opinion is it to use a sub-par seam sealing process that is not designed to hold up to abuse hunters will put it through, then sell it to customers with an expectation it will perform. This is not to say I will not continue to look for and develop a sealing process, however it will need to be adequately tested before I will trust it for our customers.


I hope this helps for those who have questions. I understand that sometimes it is easy to make assumptions based of design, however sometimes the true design features and path to the design are quite complex and not as simple as face value might suggest. I am always available to discuss these points, so please feel free to reach out if I can help.

Best

Kurt


[email protected]

Great information. You clearly take justified pride in your work.

If I was in the position you are in, the tone you have taken could be call very polite compared to my internal reaction. So, please do not take this as me wagging a finger. There was also nothing inappropriate about what you said, but the tone of it risks triggering pushback and on line that can turn into a shit show and make people less likely to take in the facts your present.

Thank you for your detailed reply.

 

[Kurt]

@Marbles , thank you for the feedback, I edited my response in hope of more focus on the design points that guys have questions on.

 

[AK Troutbum]

@ Slick,

Yes, I have a lot to add to this conversation.

As mentioned before in this thread, the Terminus is not intended to be waterproof, nor do we advertise or suggest that it be used without a rain cover. The fabric choice was not based on building a waterproof pack, it was based off wear resistance in comparison to weight. Our customer base is very technically educated, so seeing that Ultra is laminate, the next question is if the fabric is waterproof. Ultra fabric is waterproof as tested per ASTM testing.

Also as mentioned, the seams are not seam taped. Why? Because technology and seam tape options are not available to seam tape these fabrics with these seams. There are some tapes that can be used on a standard flat seam that are not heavy load bearing, but not complex seam construction under stress. This was not a choice, it came down to there is no option that is durable enough to use in load carrying backpack. There are many technical specs about the seams that are unique to tape over, like taping multiple layers of webbing, matching multiple fabrics with one seam tape, and tight radiuses that cause tape bunch and delaminate. This is simply a technology that has not been developed for this type of construction. There are several options that could work on a lighter duty piece of gear with simple top stitch seams, but nothing that I would trust to sell to our customers with expectation it will be waterproof and remain waterproof for the life of the pack. You can add a sealant from the outside, however it is not as durable, on the exterior face, very susceptible to wear, will eventually leak, and will likely need to be applied several times over the life of the pack. Ultimately the best option when dealing with rain is the same as when we released the pack, use a 3.5 oz rain cover and solve the issue.

There are questions if the Internal Load Cell fabric is waterproof. The fabric is a 250 denier coated fabric, per ASTM waterproof testing and achieves a rating of 150 psi/ 10.3 bar. Many of us are very familiar with mmH20 measurement in in regards to raingear specs. Most upper level raingear specs will hover in the 25,000 – 35,000 mmH2O rating. If we convert 150 psi to mmH2O, we get a rating of 105,400 mmH2O, 3 to 4 times that of quality raingear. So yes, by all quantified industry standards, the internal load cell is waterproof and performs at the upper level of waterproof fabrics.

In regards to AKTroutbum comment of not using a waterproof fabric on the load cell being “bullshit”, you should be happy to know the fabric is rated as waterproof per ASTM standards, I would be happy to forward along further technical information if needed. In regard to blood being on the gear inside the pack, I would welcome a conversation to discuss details on the situation. Without knowing all circumstances, I cannot assume to know what was going on.

Once again, we are having the same discussion of seam tape sealing seams of the load cell. The load cell is sewn to the frame, the load cell is also made from one continuous piece of fabric so the only seam is directly to the frame. I took every precaution possible to reduce any leakage including drain holes. However, without a proven and available seam sealing process/technology, no seam on the Terminus can be 100% waterproof. This is no different from our other packs, there are seams on the Xpac back panel of all packs, these are not waterproof.


@ Slick – I understand that sometimes comments are made without adequate information, however I prefer comments/opinions that are based on factual information. Some factual information about my design and testing process of the Terminus that may help. I did all the design work, patterning, fabric testing, sewing prototypes, and a majority of the infield testing of the Terminus until I was at the final design, then got prototypes to others for testing. This process took just over 2 years, I have almost as much time into the Terminus as I did my first pack 10 years ago. This time was not only in the design room and behind the sewing machine, but also an enormous amount sweat equity carrying the pack under load. So in reference to your comment about “using SG customers as guinea pig”, this is not correct and far from accurately describes the design process for the Terminus, or any of our other products for that matter. It is disappointing to hear someone jump to that conclusion, I am not sure what would lead you to believe that, but I hope this background helps.


@thinhorn_AK – Again, there is not an acceptable seam sealing process per fabric manufacturers, therefore it was not a decision of whether to add seam sealing or save weight. What would be “bullshit” (as you stated) in my opinion is it to use a sub-par seam sealing process that is not designed to hold up to abuse hunters will put it through, then sell it to customers with an expectation it will perform. This is not to say I will not continue to look for and develop a sealing process, however it will need to be adequately tested before I will trust it for our customers.


I hope this helps for those who have questions. I understand that sometimes it is easy to make assumptions based of design, however sometimes the true design features and path to the design are quite complex and not as simple as face value might suggest. I am always available to discuss these points, so please feel free to reach out if I can help.

Best

Kurt


[email protected]

Hey Kurt, thanks for chiming in and thanks for the detailed response. Like I said earlier, I have no experience yet with this pack as I purchased it a few months ago, but have yet to field test it. My negative comment was in response to the couple of folks that said they had experienced issues with blood soaking through the load cell material. The material feels like it could be waterproof, and I wasn’t able to blow air through it, so I assumed that it probably was waterproof, but after reading about the blood soaking through, I decided to give you guys a call. The gentleman I spoke with confirmed that it is waterproof material, but also stated that the seams weren’t sealed, and suggested that maybe that’s where the blood was getting through. I’m going to attempt to seam seal the load cell, from the inside of the pocket, in the hopes that will alleviate the problem. My biggest concern is having blood getting all over inside my pack, but I also realize that the best solution for dealing with that may be to just line the pocket with a thin plastic garbage bag.


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[ljalberta]

I also appreciate the detailed response Kurt. I was one who experienced a good amount of blood pooling in the bottom of my back and leaching into my gear.

I put the meat in Tag bags, then into the load sling. I then threw my pad and sleeping bag into the bottom of my main compartment and stacked the rest of the gear on top. I don’t typically use stuff sacks, however I normally put a liner bag for all my other gear when carrying meat. I mistakenly thought the inner sleeve wouldn’t leak blood, and didn’t even consider the seams.

I had a 3 day pack out with sheep. After the first day, I pulled out my gear and there was blood across my sleeping bag, pad, rain gear, and some extra clothes I had stuffed in there. There were also some pools at the bottom of the main bag, where the sleeping pad was.

I simply pulled out my gear, wiped and rinsed as well as possible and the next day put my clothes in a spare garbage bag.

If the material is waterproof then I’m assuming the blood just leached through the seams. This makes sense based on the amount of blood in the bottom of the pack. I imagine my other gear was probably packed against the side seams, hence the blood coming through there.

The grommet holes are fantastic though, as mentioned a good amount of blood dropped out the holes on the back.

I suspect that as you mentined, it would be difficult to seam seal the meat pouch seams, and I’ll simply by throwing all my gear in a contractor bag as I have in the past when I’m carrying meat in the bag.

Also as mentioned above, I friggen love this pack, and I have a hard time ever imagining getting rid of it. However, if the technology ever came to properly seal those seams, and it sounds like it doesn’t exist right now, then that would just be an extra win on top.

As a note, for Alberta, where it’s typically a drier climate, the Terminus material kept everything dry during a few different rain storms. But again, this isn’t Alaska or coastal BC moisture.

 

[MT_Wyatt]

Good run down Kurt. I kind of liked the earlier version with more pushback but the design features and thought behind it, time etc is most important.

Can you post how to get the weapons sling for the terminus setup? I got one, but there’s no instructions.

 

[thinhorn_AK]

The idea of blood soaking my gear during a multi-day pack out flat out sketches me out.

 

[Ryan Avery]

I've used this bag on a few hunts this year. Waterproof material or not, I always have a contractor trash bag to put my gear in if meat goes in the main compartment. Seems pretty simple to me and has worked for the last 30 years of backpack hunting.

 

[schmalzy]

I packed meat and cape in argali bags in a regular SG load cell and then put that into the Terminus load cell and didn’t have any significant issues with blood pooling up in the bottom of the pack.

Only did it once so somewhat anecdotal.


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[slick]

@ Slick – I wanted to give a little background information about my design and testing process of the Terminus that may help. I did all the design work, patterning, fabric testing, sewing prototypes, and a majority of the infield testing of the Terminus until I was at the final design, then got prototypes to others for testing. This process took just over 2 years, I have almost as much time into the Terminus as I did my first pack 10 years ago. This time was not only in the design room and behind the sewing machine, but also an enormous amount sweat equity carrying the pack under load. So in reference to your comment about “using SG customers as guinea pig”, this comment does not accurately describe the design process for the Terminus.

I understand that there may be questions on design, however sometimes the true design features and path to the design are quite complex and not as simple as face value might suggest. I am always available to discuss these points, so please feel free to reach out if I can help.

Best

Kurt


[email protected]

Thanks for the detailed response, as always.

I know reading text vs. hearing connotation in spoken language is impossible to decipher especially over the internet. It was a generalized statement. I don't discredit the time, sweat, sore backs and racked brains it took to design, tweak, use, and tweak your products again. Honestly, it was more of a curiosity from my end. I purchased the pack but have not used it on a hunt yet.

I merely said, "when a company". I now realize that probably came across as a backhanded compliment saying, "Usually SG is good about not subjecting their customers to that". My apologies.

Would you mind sharing how you care for deboned meat within the pack ie: SG load cell bag, TAG bags, cotton bags, no game bags? I understand if you're on a soggy mtn goat hunt moisture build up/retention may be different than an interior sheep hunt.