Stock vs Chassis for Field Shooting

[Justin Crossley]

I don't have nearly the shooting experience that @Formidilosus does, but I do like to hunt with a bipod and a chassis. For me, it works very well. I also agree with most of the things Form doesn't like about a chassis.

I'll also comment on the PRS/NRL topic. I think a person can learn just as many bad habits/techniques shooting PRS as they will good as it relates to shooting in backcountry hunting situations.

The NRL Hunter comps are not perfect either, but I learn a lot more that applies to killing animals at those matches than I do shooting PRS.

 

[Formidilosus]

I don't have nearly the shooting experience that @Formidilosus does, but I do like to hunt with a bipod and a chassis. For me, it works very well. I also agree with most of the things Form doesn't like about a chassis.

Come on now. You shoot and hunt way more than most. No doubt there are people that hunt in a way that maximizes metal chassis use. Just that it’s not most people or uses. That’s all.

I'll also comment on the PRS/NRL topic. I think a person can learn just as many bad habits/techniques shooting PRS as they will good as it relates to shooting in backcountry hunting situations.

The NRL Hunter comps are not perfect either, but I learn a lot more that applies to killing animals at those matches than I do shooting PRS.

Hopefully NRL Hunters continues to grow.

 

[Dman86]

It almost always ends up with them buying a KRG Bravo to replace the chassis or buying a new rifle.

I see the KRG Bravo mentioned a lot. Have you had any experience with the MDT XRS for field shooting/hunting? It seems like it could be a great hunting chassis option with the vertical grip.


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[Dobermann]

I see the KRG Bravo mentioned a lot. Have you had any experience with the MDT XRS for field shooting/hunting? It seems like it could be a great hunting chassis option with the vertical grip.

Except that the MDT XRS's 'starting weight' is an entire pound heavier than the Bravo ...

 

[zrodwyo]

I would love to hear more specifics on what guys are disliking about chassis rifles in field shooting scenarios. If for nothing else to try it myself to see if I feel the same way.

I take a chassis rifle on antelope and sagebrush mule deer hunts. I haven’t found a better way to shoot in sagebrush than off a tripod.

 

[Formidilosus]

I see the KRG Bravo mentioned a lot. Have you had any experience with the MDT XRS for field shooting/hunting? It seems like it could be a great hunting chassis option with the vertical grip.

Yes, but it’s heavy.

 

[DiabeticKripple]

I shoot almost exclusively off a tripod on my hunts.

For WT i sit in a camping chair with a tripod and wait for them to cross a cut line. I have killed 6 bucks on the same cut line within 300yds of each other.

For MD and Elk we have a bunch of open prairie where shots are easily 400-600yds. It just makes sense to run a tripod out there and a chassis with a ARCA rail for stability.

Cold is a negligible point IMO because if its too cold to carry in my hands, I'm going to have gloves on anyways. I hunt all the way down to -40C and it doesnt really matter what your stock is made of at that point, its damn cold.

So it really boils down to how you hunt. What works for someone else may not work best for you.

 

[ZAR EC]

On my 338 I went from a KRG bravo to an AICS AT chassis. The AT was a downgrade for me in terms of recoil control and was a poor setup overall for hunting. A chassis is just an uncomfortable to carry boat anchor after a full day of hunting. I dont control recoil and torque nearly as well using a chassis pistol grip in comparison to a vertical style grip either. Spotting impacts is significantly easier with the Bravo vs the AT.

 

[JohnJohnson]

On my 338 I went from a KRG bravo to an AICS AT chassis. The AT was a downgrade for me in terms of recoil control and was a poor setup overall for hunting. A chassis is just an uncomfortable to carry boat anchor after a full day of hunting. I dont control recoil and torque nearly as well using a chassis pistol grip in comparison to a vertical style grip either. Spotting impacts is significantly easier with the Bravo vs the AT.

I went from a KRG X-Ray to an MPA and just couldn't deal with the pistol grip either. From there I went to Manners stocks for years but finally made my way back to KRG and now my two main guns have X-Ray and Bravo chassis on them. It was a cautionary tale of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". I just wanted to try new stuff and a lot of money later I'm just now reassembling what I had in the first place because nothing was better for me personally.

 

[ZAR EC]

I went from a KRG X-Ray to an MPA and just couldn't deal with the pistol grip either. From there I went to Manners stocks for years but finally made my way back to KRG and now my two main guns have X-Ray and Bravo chassis on them. It was a cautionary tale of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". I just wanted to try new stuff and a lot of money later I'm just now reassembling what I had in the first place because nothing was better for me personally.

So true. I'm constantly tinkering. Personal experience trumps all else so I'm happy to pay some school fees to try out different equipment. This sometimes leads to stupid outcomes.... like chasing after very close range Cape Buffalo in the thickets with a chasis setup. Thats a less than ideal "field shooting" setup!

 

[DangerRanger]

Mdt actually just released a field chassis for 700 but it’s still heavier than a bravo

 

[Formidilosus]

Because a couple people either didn’t understand what I was saying or I stated it poorly; and I’m taking it that they don’t just want to argue; let’s go point by point on what I have stated and why.

1). Are 20-40 pound chassis rifles realistic practical hunting setups? Yes or no. If not, then we’re on the same page.

2). Are the same characteristics/designs that work when a rifle is 20-40lbs optimum for a 7-10lbs rifle, or do you think the designs probably needs to be altered to be optimized for that 7-10lb weight? Yes or no? If you believe it does need to altered, then we’re on the same page.

3). Is adding weight to a chassis in the field, a practical thing for hunting? Yes or no. If not, then we’re on the same page.

4). Is metal better in the cold than carbon fiber, Kevlar, polymer, or wood? Yes or no. If metal is not better, then we’re on the same page.

5). Are designs that are optimized to be shot near free recoil with muzzle braked small 6mm’s, with near zero human input, and mainly shot from 10+ pound tripods, a Game Changer bag, or prone bipod; optimized for all around shooting conditions that the vast majority of backcountry hunters experience? Yes or no? If not, then we’re on the same page.

6). Are designs that are optimized around a scenario where no safety on the rifle is utilized ever, a relatively clean range to shoot from, and the bolt is back whenever movement happens- also optimized for general practical hunting for the vast majority of backcountry hunting scenarios? Yes or no. If not, then we’re on the same page.


If you believe that any of those points are a “yes, they’re the same” between a PRS match setup and a true field rifle shot in all conditions- cool. Please explain in detail why. And because it matters specifically to this conversation, please include your experience backcountry hunting that you are drawing your thoughts from.
I am not speaking to the one offs, or the massive outlier- if you specifically and only setup shots on animals as if it’s a match, ok that’s fine- not talking about you. I am speaking about the the practical common spot and stalk hunter. For instance @Justin Crossley and I have spoken about this. Justin shoots and hunts more than most, he has a clue. For his use full on chassis work, no issue.




This isn’t hard. This has nothing to do with PRS as a sport. It has nothing to do with whether PRS has facets that are beneficial to hunters. It’s has nothing to do with personal preference- it has nothing to do with anything but “backcountry hunting using a 7-10lb rifle that does move during recoil, used from muzzle contact distance to long range, that needs to be shot in all positions- often very quickly, unsupported at times; in hot, dusty, sandy, dirty, cold, mountainous, snow and icy conditions. That setting and use generally requires something different than what is optimized for a range setting.


I guarantee you if they started holding matches where 2+ feet of snow and single digit temps were the norm, where the shots were timed from “GO” until the target is hit, from real close to long range and at times in low light, where shooting from true awkward field positions was standard; and where you had to carry the rifle in the pack, a rifle sling, or hand carry all day long and to start each stage in that condition, where you didn’t get to see the targets until the buzzer went off, etc., etc.- all of what I’ve written would make sense… and the rifles wouldn’t look anything like standard PRS setups.

 

[PantherCity]

Has anyone put a bravo in a mill and seen how much weight could be taken out? Seems like you could remove quite a bit.

There was talk from KRG awhile back about a new lighter bravo style stock.

I have a bravo, XLR mag element 4.0 and an alterra Carbon and there are elements of all that I like and I’ve made changes to them to make them suit my purposes better. None are perfect.


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[ID_Matt]

Has anyone put a bravo in a mill and seen how much weight could be taken out? Seems like you could remove quite a bit.

@Juan_ID

 

[huntnful]

I have a chassis target gun and carbon stock hunting guns. I feel like the ONLY benefit a chassis would provide for most realistic hunting scenarios is the collapsible stock for shorter profile when strapped to a pack. Just my opinion of course lol.

 

[DiabeticKripple]

Because a couple people either didn’t understand what I was saying or I stated it poorly; and I’m taking it that they don’t just want to argue; let’s go point by point on what I have stated and why.

1). Are 20-40 pound chassis rifles realistic practical hunting setups? Yes or no. If not, then we’re on the same page.

2). Are the same characteristics/designs that work when a rifle is 20-40lbs optimum for a 7-10lbs rifle, or do you think the designs probably needs to be altered to be optimized for that 7-10lb weight? Yes or no? If you believe it does need to altered, then we’re on the same page.

3). Is adding weight to a chassis in the field, a practical thing for hunting? Yes or no. If not, then we’re on the same page.

4). Is metal better in the cold than carbon fiber, Kevlar, polymer, or wood? Yes or no. If metal is not better, then we’re on the same page.

5). Are designs that are optimized to be shot near free recoil with muzzle braked small 6mm’s, with near zero human input, and mainly shot from 10+ pound tripods, a Game Changer bag, or prone bipod; optimized for all around shooting conditions that the vast majority of backcountry hunters experience? Yes or no? If not, then we’re on the same page.

6). Are designs that are optimized around a scenario where no safety on the rifle is utilized ever, a relatively clean range to shoot from, and the bolt is back whenever movement happens- also optimized for general practical hunting for the vast majority of backcountry hunting scenarios? Yes or no. If not, then we’re on the same page.


If you believe that any of those points are a “yes, they’re the same” between a PRS match setup and a true field rifle shot in all conditions- cool. Please explain in detail why. And because it matters specifically to this conversation, please include your experience backcountry hunting that you are drawing your thoughts from.
I am not speaking to the one offs, or the massive outlier- if you specifically and only setup shots on animals as if it’s a match, ok that’s fine- not talking about you. I am speaking about the the practical common spot and stalk hunter. For instance @Justin Crossley and I have spoken about this. Justin shoots and hunts more than most, he has a clue. For his use full on chassis work, no issue.




This isn’t hard. This has nothing to do with PRS as a sport. It has nothing to do with whether PRS has facets that are beneficial to hunters. It’s has nothing to do with personal preference- it has nothing to do with anything but “backcountry hunting using a 7-10lb rifle that does move during recoil, used from muzzle contact distance to long range, that needs to be shot in all positions- often very quickly, unsupported at times; in hot, dusty, sandy, dirty, cold, mountainous, snow and icy conditions. That setting and use generally requires something different than what is optimized for a range setting.


I guarantee you if they started holding matches where 2+ feet of snow and single digit temps were the norm, where the shots were timed from “GO” until the target is hit, from real close to long range and at times in low light, where shooting from true awkward field positions was standard; and where you had to carry the rifle in the pack, a rifle sling, or hand carry all day long and to start each stage in that condition, where you didn’t get to see the targets until the buzzer went off, etc., etc.- all of what I’ve written would make sense… and the rifles wouldn’t look anything like standard PRS setups.

Ill bite a bit.

1) I dont think anyone is arguing that a 20-40lb rifle is practical for hunting.

2) Depending on the chassis, I dont think the design need to be changed much at all.

3) I dont know why you would add weight to a chassis for hunting, where one shot is all that matters for the most part.

4) I wouldnt say any of them are better or worse, if its cold put gloves on, take one off when you go to shoot.

5) I cant think of a shooting situation where a standard hunting stock would be a greater advantage for shooting off rocks etc over a chassis. throw the pack down and put the gun on top.

6) Dont need a safety if you dont have one in the chamber, may as well hike with the hammer down too if you want.

I'm coming from the perspective of a XLR Magnesium chassis with a rifle that weighs the exact same as my standard Tikka T3. I just dont see where the chassis will limit me in any way compared to the Tikka. The only part where the standard stock would be better is for carrying by hand, the ARCA rail will be a bit of a pain.

 

[PathFinder]

Has anyone put a bravo in a mill and seen how much weight could be taken out? Seems like you could remove quite a bit.

There was talk from KRG awhile back about a new lighter bravo style stock.

I have a bravo, XLR mag element 4.0 and an alterra Carbon and there are elements of all that I like and I’ve made changes to them to make them suit my purposes better. None are perfect.


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Images: Hunting with KRG Bravo

First animal with my Tikka T3x in 6.5cm. Shot it at 297 yards That's a good goat!

rokslide.com

@Juan_ID did. Sounds like it didn't lose a lot of weight.
If I end up buying a Bravo I'll experiment a bit with cutting weight out of it. After weighing all of the different components the next step will be to decide where to reduce weight. Probably a combination of cutting down the aluminum block and substituting 3D printed structure, maybe hollow 3D printed panels, aluminum fasteners everywhere but the action screws, titanium action screws, and a magnesium action block if I get really ambitious.
The goal is to remove 1lb out of it, we'll see if it's possible or not.

 

[Formidilosus]

Ill bite a bit.

1) I dont think anyone is arguing that a 20-40lb rifle is practical for hunting.

Ok.

2) Depending on the chassis, I dont think the design need to be changed much at all.

Well it does matter. A stock designed to shoot off of on type of bag specifically, and that is purposely balanced to shoot off the bag or a heavy and stable tripod, is not the same as a stock that is designed to be shot from all positions equally as well. Optimized offhand silhouette stocks are not the same as optimized biathlon stocks, nor are those the same as optimized Norwegian speed shooting stocks, nor are those same as optimized PRS stocks.

3) I dont know why you would add weight to a chassis for hunting, where one shot is all that matters for the most part.

Ok.

4) I wouldnt say any of them are better or worse, if its cold put gloves on, take one off when you go to shoot.

How much shooting/multi day backpack hunting have you truly done in real cold? It matters, because there is no amount of “glove” that is practical to use and wear that insulates from metal in real cold. When carrying a rifle all day in 15-30° temps, a thin glove with a non metal rifle is fine and allows you to shoot with the gloves on or take them off for the shot. A metal chassis in the same conditions require thick mitts to carry that metal rifle, and they have to be taken off to shoot, and shooting without a thin glove on can and will get skin stuck to the rifle at some point, and even 30 seconds to a minute of touching it can cause issues.
Nearly all legitimate military sniper rifle stocks/chassis across the world have been made of polymer, Kevlar, or even wood in countries that deal with real cold. Only recently has this started to change driven by a 20 year war in a desert, and in the cold the metal rifles are being covered in vet wrap to deal with the cold metal, and it still isn’t working.

5) I cant think of a shooting situation where a standard hunting stock would be a greater advantage for shooting off rocks etc over a chassis. throw the pack down and put the gun on top.

Because wide flat bottom forends don’t work in some positions, true pistol grips don’t work well from some positions, and carrying the rifle- holding it. Metal is a compromise that has no real redeeming qualities for general hunting.

6) Dont need a safety if you dont have one in the chamber, may as well hike with the hammer down too if you want.

Ok. So you’ve never had a situation where you chambered the rifle to shoot an animal and then had to wait a while for the shot, or the animal moved and you had to move to rebuild the shot? If you haven’t had that, then your not killing much. If you have, and your answer was just to move with chambered rifle that isn’t drop safe (any R700 design) and not put a safety on, then we’re at completely opposite end of the gunhandling spectrum.

I'm coming from the perspective of a XLR Magnesium chassis with a rifle that weighs the exact same as my standard Tikka T3. I just dont see where the chassis will limit me in any way compared to the Tikka.

So you have used the XLR extensively- that is weeks and months of constant use shooting and hunting in cold weather, from every possible shooting positions- standing, kneeling, sitting, prone, over tree branches, in jagged rocks and cliffs, etc, and haven’t seen where some issues are?

I’m not trying to argue with you, I’m trying to make sure we are speaking about the same thing/use.

 

[DiabeticKripple]

Ok.





Well it does matter. A stock designed to shoot off of on type of bag specifically, and that is purposely balanced to shoot off the bag or a heavy and stable tripod, is not the same as a stock that is designed to be shot from all positions equally as well. Optimized offhand silhouette stocks are not the same as optimized biathlon stocks, nor are those the same as optimized Norwegian speed shooting stocks, nor are those same as optimized PRS stocks.




Ok.




How much shooting/multi day backpack hunting have you truly done in real cold? It matters, because there is no amount of “glove” that is practical to use and wear that insulates from metal in real cold. When carrying a rifle all day in 15-30° temps, a thin glove with a non metal rifle is fine and allows you to shoot with the gloves on or take them off for the shot. A metal chassis in the same conditions require thick mitts to carry that metal rifle, and they have to be taken off to shoot, and shooting without a thin glove on can and will get skin stuck to the rifle at some point, and even 30 seconds to a minute of touching it can cause issues.
Nearly all legitimate military sniper rifle stocks/chassis across the world have been made of polymer, Kevlar, or even wood in countries that deal with real cold. Only recently has this started to change driven by a 20 year war in a desert, and in the cold the metal rifles are being covered in vet wrap to deal with the cold metal, and it still isn’t working.





Because wide flat bottom forends don’t work in some positions, true pistol grips don’t work well from some positions, and carrying the rifle- holding it. Metal is a compromise that has no real redeeming qualities for general hunting.




Ok. So you’ve never had a situation where you chambered the rifle to shoot an animal and then had to wait a while for the shot, or the animal moved and you had to move to rebuild the shot? If you haven’t had that, then your not killing much. If you have, and your answer was just to move with chambered rifle that isn’t drop safe (any R700 design) and not put a safety on, then we’re at completely opposite end of the gunhandling spectrum.





So you have used the XLR extensively- that is weeks and months of constant use shooting and hunting in cold weather, from every possible shooting positions- standing, kneeling, sitting, prone, over tree branches, in jagged rocks and cliffs, etc, and haven’t seen where some issues are?

I’m not trying to argue with you, I’m trying to make sure we are speaking about the same thing/use.

I can take your word for it, I am 100% positive that you have way more experience than me, but for the hunting that i have done (4 years backcountry, 10 years open prairie and thick timber) I just havent been in any of the situations where I feel that the XLR wouldnt be completely fine for taking those exact shots I have killed game in.

The benefits of that chassis outweigh any of the cons IMO.

and it has a safety

 

[Formidilosus]

I can take your word for it, I am 100% positive that you have way more experience than me, but for the hunting that i have done (4 years backcountry, 10 years open prairie and thick timber) I just havent been in any of the situations where I feel that the XLR wouldnt be completely fine for taking those exact shots I have killed game in.

The benefits of that chassis outweigh any of the cons IMO.

and it has a safety

Fair enough. Thank you for responding.