Stock vs Chassis for Field Shooting

[Keith Stone]

Because a couple people either didn’t understand what I was saying or I stated it poorly; and I’m taking it that they don’t just want to argue; let’s go point by point on what I have stated and why.

1). Are 20-40 pound chassis rifles realistic practical hunting setups? Yes or no. If not, then we’re on the same page.

2). Are the same characteristics/designs that work when a rifle is 20-40lbs optimum for a 7-10lbs rifle, or do you think the designs probably needs to be altered to be optimized for that 7-10lb weight? Yes or no? If you believe it does need to altered, then we’re on the same page.

3). Is adding weight to a chassis in the field, a practical thing for hunting? Yes or no. If not, then we’re on the same page.

4). Is metal better in the cold than carbon fiber, Kevlar, polymer, or wood? Yes or no. If metal is not better, then we’re on the same page.

5). Are designs that are optimized to be shot near free recoil with muzzle braked small 6mm’s, with near zero human input, and mainly shot from 10+ pound tripods, a Game Changer bag, or prone bipod; optimized for all around shooting conditions that the vast majority of backcountry hunters experience? Yes or no? If not, then we’re on the same page.

6). Are designs that are optimized around a scenario where no safety on the rifle is utilized ever, a relatively clean range to shoot from, and the bolt is back whenever movement happens- also optimized for general practical hunting for the vast majority of backcountry hunting scenarios? Yes or no. If not, then we’re on the same page.


If you believe that any of those points are a “yes, they’re the same” between a PRS match setup and a true field rifle shot in all conditions- cool. Please explain in detail why. And because it matters specifically to this conversation, please include your experience backcountry hunting that you are drawing your thoughts from.
I am not speaking to the one offs, or the massive outlier- if you specifically and only setup shots on animals as if it’s a match, ok that’s fine- not talking about you. I am speaking about the the practical common spot and stalk hunter. For instance @Justin Crossley and I have spoken about this. Justin shoots and hunts more than most, he has a clue. For his use full on chassis work, no issue.




This isn’t hard. This has nothing to do with PRS as a sport. It has nothing to do with whether PRS has facets that are beneficial to hunters. It’s has nothing to do with personal preference- it has nothing to do with anything but “backcountry hunting using a 7-10lb rifle that does move during recoil, used from muzzle contact distance to long range, that needs to be shot in all positions- often very quickly, unsupported at times; in hot, dusty, sandy, dirty, cold, mountainous, snow and icy conditions. That setting and use generally requires something different than what is optimized for a range setting.


I guarantee you if they started holding matches where 2+ feet of snow and single digit temps were the norm, where the shots were timed from “GO” until the target is hit, from real close to long range and at times in low light, where shooting from true awkward field positions was standard; and where you had to carry the rifle in the pack, a rifle sling, or hand carry all day long and to start each stage in that condition, where you didn’t get to see the targets until the buzzer went off, etc., etc.- all of what I’ve written would make sense… and the rifles wouldn’t look anything like standard PRS setups.

 

[Antares]

If you’re going to junk up an interesting conversation with memes, can they be funny at least?

 

[Keith Stone]

Because a couple people either didn’t understand what I was saying or I stated it poorly; and I’m taking it that they don’t just want to argue; let’s go point by point on what I have stated and why.

1). Are 20-40 pound chassis rifles realistic practical hunting setups? Yes or no. If not, then we’re on the same page.

2). Are the same characteristics/designs that work when a rifle is 20-40lbs optimum for a 7-10lbs rifle, or do you think the designs probably needs to be altered to be optimized for that 7-10lb weight? Yes or no? If you believe it does need to altered, then we’re on the same page.

3). Is adding weight to a chassis in the field, a practical thing for hunting? Yes or no. If not, then we’re on the same page.

4). Is metal better in the cold than carbon fiber, Kevlar, polymer, or wood? Yes or no. If metal is not better, then we’re on the same page.

5). Are designs that are optimized to be shot near free recoil with muzzle braked small 6mm’s, with near zero human input, and mainly shot from 10+ pound tripods, a Game Changer bag, or prone bipod; optimized for all around shooting conditions that the vast majority of backcountry hunters experience? Yes or no? If not, then we’re on the same page.

6). Are designs that are optimized around a scenario where no safety on the rifle is utilized ever, a relatively clean range to shoot from, and the bolt is back whenever movement happens- also optimized for general practical hunting for the vast majority of backcountry hunting scenarios? Yes or no. If not, then we’re on the same page.


If you believe that any of those points are a “yes, they’re the same” between a PRS match setup and a true field rifle shot in all conditions- cool. Please explain in detail why. And because it matters specifically to this conversation, please include your experience backcountry hunting that you are drawing your thoughts from.
I am not speaking to the one offs, or the massive outlier- if you specifically and only setup shots on animals as if it’s a match, ok that’s fine- not talking about you. I am speaking about the the practical common spot and stalk hunter. For instance @Justin Crossley and I have spoken about this. Justin shoots and hunts more than most, he has a clue. For his use full on chassis work, no issue.




This isn’t hard. This has nothing to do with PRS as a sport. It has nothing to do with whether PRS has facets that are beneficial to hunters. It’s has nothing to do with personal preference- it has nothing to do with anything but “backcountry hunting using a 7-10lb rifle that does move during recoil, used from muzzle contact distance to long range, that needs to be shot in all positions- often very quickly, unsupported at times; in hot, dusty, sandy, dirty, cold, mountainous, snow and icy conditions. That setting and use generally requires something different than what is optimized for a range setting.


I guarantee you if they started holding matches where 2+ feet of snow and single digit temps were the norm, where the shots were timed from “GO” until the target is hit, from real close to long range and at times in low light, where shooting from true awkward field positions was standard; and where you had to carry the rifle in the pack, a rifle sling, or hand carry all day long and to start each stage in that condition, where you didn’t get to see the targets until the buzzer went off, etc., etc.- all of what I’ve written would make sense… and the rifles wouldn’t look anything like standard PRS setups.

I attempted to go through the individual bookmarks and comment but as I made it to the second one I seen where it could tail off into a completely sidebar discussion.

So as to jump to your summary I do use my comp gun in the field minus the weights. Judging by the tone of the thread I realize I might be that outlier or in the minority so if nothing else this will only add a useless data point.

A full length arca rail, flat bottom, and vertical grip are features that are on almost every comp gun out there and that I want on my field rifles. I do carry a 6lb tripod to glass and shoot from and a pint sized gc with gitlite fill. With those two items I feel very confident making any shot within my mer.

Typically I hunt 4-5 states per year for deer and elk with a mixture of bow, muzzleloader, and rifle. All my hunts are diy “backcountry” hunts, depending on where I am dictates truck camping or hunting with camp on my back.

And to your last point about the form/prs match, mammoth/cd/steel safari/sac all have subsets of this dream match you are referring to and the chassis are still hanging in there.

@Antares yeah I hear ya just had to take the edge off a bit to avoid another wrist slap

 

[Lawnboi]

I’ll add a little since I shoot both prs and nrl hunter. And own one rifle chassis which is on my prs gun. Chassis are not what I prefer for hunting and I’ll highlight why below.

@Formidilosus outlined all the bad about current match shooting. It has evolved to use rifles and rifle accessories that just are not friendly in the field IMO. That said if we are talking about all the bad, I feel we have to atleast speak on the good that these matches, both PRS and hunter style have given me.

1. They provide stress. If you are not practicing under stress, be it time, movement, in front of your peers, ect…. You are not practicing to the highest potential.

2. While some of the ways we shoot at matches are unrealistic, I have also learned how to build positions faster, that are more stable than I ever have.

3. I personally hunt with a bipod, and carry a 1-1.5lb git lit game changer bag with me hunting, strapped the the exterior of my pack. People backpack with a fricken pillow, so I’ll go ahead and carry my bag that has made every shot on almost every animal since I began carrying it, much easier. I’ll strap it to my pack regardless of overnight gear. Bipod I could go without as well as tripod, but depending on the hunt I’ll carry each of those as well because I feel they give me an advantage shooting. Really easy to focus on trigger control under stress when you’re not dealing with a half a mil of wobble because I needed to save a pound. I’m there to kill animals, I’ll cut everywhere else if I have to. And I’m a guy who won’t even carry a spare pair of underwear most of the time.

3. While not every facet carries over, many do. Scope manipulation, fundamentals, gear management. Understanding how to make your setup stay where it’s at through the life of a barrel, reloading through the life of the barrel and brass, making wind calls, spotting shots. But my number one take away has been under stress, not reacting to the shot in order to take away as much as I can from it. IMO one of the hardest things to do in shooting is eliminate your bodies natural reaction to a loud noise and a sharp push. That takes a lot of shooting, and at a prs or nrl hunter match I get to do that a lot, on someone else’s rules.

4. There’s many things I really don’t like about the prs and that style match. For that reason I’m going to try to shoot a few more nrl hunter matches. That said prs matches have evolved in the little time that Iv been shooting them. They have gotten significantly harder, atleast the ones Iv been shooting. To the point that it’s frustrating. That and I hate spending money on gear that has one use, and that’s now unavoidable if you want to be at all competitive.

Last nrl hunter match I shot was with a bdl 3006. And came around 20/70 shooters. I had never shot that style before and most of my dropped points were due to lack of familiarization with the format, and getting my bearings on the time constraints when applied to both glassing and shooting. PRS experience made most of the shooting (when I wasn’t being an idiot in a hurry) fairly easy. While a chassis rifle would have been much easier for nrl, I’d shoot the 3006 again.



In regards to why I won’t shoot a chassis rifle for hunting, I think it has a lot to do with how I hunt. I do not put my rifle on or in my pack while I have an open tag. It’s in my hands. I don’t use trekking poles unless absolutely needed, this has resulted in me normally stowing them in my pack till something is dead.

I hunt in cold climates. Gloves are not enough hanging onto metal.

Safety and rifle manipulation. While a longer shot we can set up on is nice, it dosnt always happen that way. A grip style that I can manipulate and control the rifle with, along with manipulate the safety while controlling the rifle, is absolutely needed. Maybe others can say they don’t miss opportunity because they got lazy didn’t have their weapon in their hands, but I have.

Aics magazines suck, they are loud, and cold, and until the last few years they have been too big. Being that I carry my rifle all the time, and the way I like to carry it, makes a mag sticking down a real pain.

While I appreciate the primitive way form shoots, and do think every one should practice and prepare for a shot where there is no time to use shooting aids; I also know that discounting those techniques, be it tripod and bipod use, or using a shooting bag, have and will continue to make me more confident in shots I take on game. As with everything, there is a time and place.

 

[woods89]

I've never shot a chassis, but as someone who does construction work in the cold, it seems like metal sucks heat right through gloves if you have to grip it for very long. Plastics/composites don't seem to as much. That alone would have me very hesitant to put a metal chassis on a rifle.

Why someone can't build a carbon or composite stock with correct geometry is beyond me.......

 

[woods89]

I'm sitting at my desk and doodling this morning. Thoughts?

Forend is flat. You could do a recessed pic rail at the front end. Mini chassis system. Negative comb, buttstock flat on the bottom. It seems like it could be done out of carbon without getting too heavy. It looks a little funky, so you'd have to market the advantages!

 

[ID_Matt]

This has been an interesting thread. As for the competition shooting carrying over to hunting, I relate it to physical training for a hunting. The best way to prepare for a hunt in steep mountains at 10,000 feet of elevation is to hike in steep mountains at 10,000 feet elevation right? The stair stepper at the gym helps and is more convenient, but definitely doesn't produce the same results as the real thing.

I agree mostly with some of the points @Lawnboi made above. A 20 lb 6mm is not practical for hunting and when used in competition is substantially more forgiving than a 10 lb 6.5 creed. The heavy gun and 10 lb sandbag can let a guy cheat - easy to "drive", free recoil, etc. But, like mentioned above, there are some positives to the competition side. Getting on target fast, understanding dope, wind, bolt manipulation, building positions, are all some benefits. When I help newer shooters, I am always amazed how long it takes them to get on target and be stable.

As for the chassis vs stock. I have mostly converted to chassis, however, on one of my hunting guns am considering going back to a stock just because AICS mags do suck for hunting (@XLR @HawkinsPrecision long action hunter mags???) The benefits of the chassis I like are built in arca rail, adjustable cheek, folding capability, modular grips, ability to fit multiple people. As far as adding weight, call me a gamer, but I add a side weight for competition to balance the gun better and for a thumb shelf then take it off for hunting.

As for the cold weather, I won't argue that. Metal gets real cold - have seen it in bows especially. But most of my hunting is spent in october and november when it isn't too terrible cold. Gun stays strapped on my pack in a gunbearer that is quickly accessible most of the time. If I hunted for weeks on end in -20 F and 2 feet of snow chasing late season elk, then it would definitely be a much bigger factor, but I just don't do that too often.

 

[DangerRanger]

PSE Evolution Series

Welcome to the new Evolution Series by PSE Rifle Stocks. Through our collaboration with engineers from the F1, supercar and aerospace industries, we have united our strengths to design and manufacture the next evolution in rifle stocks. The PSE Evolution Series is an evolution of the successful...

www.pse-composites.com

Looks nice

 

[PathFinder]

PSE Evolution Series

Welcome to the new Evolution Series by PSE Rifle Stocks. Through our collaboration with engineers from the F1, supercar and aerospace industries, we have united our strengths to design and manufacture the next evolution in rifle stocks. The PSE Evolution Series is an evolution of the successful...

www.pse-composites.com

Looks nice

I think it's their best design, but for R700 & Howa of all things. No Tikka yet, although that seems to be their main focus on other models.

 

[doc holiday13]

@Formidilosus we need to get you a eh1tk with a mini chassis to beat up.

No negative comb but it’s so close in all other regards. Really enjoy the ones I have.

Totally agree on the metal chassis. I have one for a game gun, and wouldn’t consider it for hunting, pretty much ever.

View attachment 577435


This is a good topic though.

Oh yea, on chassis…. Rusty screws…. The more screws the more rust.

You have some better photos of that cheek riser? Did you make it?

 

[woods89]

Been thinking about this all morning. Here's a few changes. Not sure about the implications of the bottom of buttstock being above the grip?

If someone wants to make this, all I require is 2 tikka stocks for royalties, lol.......

 

[Lawnboi]

You have some better photos of that cheek riser? Did you make it?

That’s a manners ul cheek piece. They sell it as an option on their stocks, comes with some spacers that go under it.

Honestly it hasn’t been something Iv needed, my other two eh1s don’t have it and if I could go back I’d do without.

It is a very light option for those that want it though

 

[rokbottom]

 

[wind gypsy]

PSE Evolution Series

Welcome to the new Evolution Series by PSE Rifle Stocks. Through our collaboration with engineers from the F1, supercar and aerospace industries, we have united our strengths to design and manufacture the next evolution in rifle stocks. The PSE Evolution Series is an evolution of the successful...

www.pse-composites.com

Looks nice

The distance from grip to trigger looks long AF. The "pentagon shaped pistol grip to improve muscle memory and enhance consistency" isn't particularly valuable if a guy can hardly reach the trigger with their hand on the grip.

 

[wind gypsy]

View attachment 578526

Nice. That and the benchmark ibex both look like nice options.

 

[rokbottom]

Nice. That and the benchmark ibex both look like nice options.

Supposedly 3lbs, and can be inletted for a variety of bottom metals.

 

[wind gypsy]

Supposedly 3lbs, and can be inletted for a variety of bottom metals.

@ 3# I'd be hard pressed to pay for it over a bravo for a fraction of the cost.

 

[rokbottom]

@ 3# I'd be hard pressed to pay for it over a bravo for a fraction of the cost.

I’m not sure if they are including the weight of the arca rail in that 3lbs.

It definitely is more of a Manners competitor on price point, and I do like some of the lines better on this Benchmark vs the EH1.

I used a Bravo last season, but didn’t love dealing with AICS magazines.

 

[JohnJohnson]

The distance from grip to trigger looks long AF. The "pentagon shaped pistol grip to improve muscle memory and enhance consistency" isn't particularly valuable if a guy can hardly reach the trigger with their hand on the grip.

Yeah that grip -> trigger distance looks horrific.

 

[JohnJohnson]

A lot of this chassis vs stock debate seems to revolve around the gear people are willing to take. My tripod and gamechanger (with git lite fill) are about 6.5-7 pounds combined. I wouldn't take that on a sheep hunt but it's not unreasonable (FOR ME) to take that on most other hunts I do. People here have mentioned NRL a fair bit and I've been watching along with Phillip Velayo's series on some of his NRL stages. Chassis don't seem like a dealbreaker in this video below and all they seem to be using to shoot are tripod/gamechanger. Granted it's not in a cold weather environment either but given they're using X-Ray chassis they could switch their enclosed fore ends out for the polymer one and be fine in that respect as well. I believe they compete in the 12-16 pounds category and Velayo's rifle is 14.7 lbs with the camera on his scope included. Not a light rifle at all but I don't think that's solely because of the chassis.