State Fish and Game Budgets

[tstowater]

I ran across this article yesterday: http://fwp.mt.gov/mtoutdoors/HTML/director/2014/MJ14.htm

I'm not picking on Montana, but I am kind of curious how applicable the concept of the nonresident fees/licenses revenue as a percentage of the various western state fish and game departments is. The admission that the nonresidents are picking up the lion's share of the budget was a litttle surprising, especially in light of the additional gouging that occurred this year when I went to apply for the sheep, moose and goat tags.

Unfortunately, this is additional support to my position that the western states are putting the burden on the nonresidents to finance their budgets as the nonresidents don't have much of a voice in the legislative and administrative process.

 

[_Nick_]

Makes sense to me... nonresidents, as a group, tend to be wealthier on average (able to afford out of state hunts). As a resident of a western state, I'd be quite happy for nonresidents to pay a good portion of the expenses if they're going to come here to hunt. But, that's as a resident... I can certainly see how it could be frustrating for east-coasters... they are our shared public lands and animals after all. Maybe you'll just have to move out west ;-)

 

[dotman]

Makes sense to me... nonresidents, as a group, tend to be wealthier on average (able to afford out of state hunts). As a resident of a western state, I'd be quite happy for nonresidents to pay a good portion of the expenses if they're going to come here to hunt. But, that's as a resident... I can certainly see how it could be frustrating for east-coasters... they are our shared public lands and animals after all. Maybe you'll just have to move out west ;-)

Ha, make the weathly fund it is what your saying. I know many of us that hunt as an NR are not wealthy and have to budget our hunts in. At some point it will be too expensive for the middle class to hunt as an NR and then the funds will dry up, then you will see the truly wealthy come in and see what happens. The only voice the NR has is in a pocket book. There will be a tipping point at some point and the states will take a huge hit quickly as the drop off will probably be quick not slow and drawn out.

Once the NR cannot afford to head west and hangs up western hunting do you really think they will care as much if federal lands are sold off to the rich? Eventually hunting will be only a rich mans sport, resident or not, hope you have a bunch of private property once the public land is sold off which will happen someday, too many votes in the east and take away the eastern sportsmans vote and the public ground is in trouble.

I'm not saying the sky is falling but there is more to just using the NR to give you a cheap ride as a resident to consider.

 

[gethuntin]

Makes sense to me... nonresidents, as a group, tend to be wealthier on average (able to afford out of state hunts). As a resident of a western state, I'd be quite happy for nonresidents to pay a good portion of the expenses if they're going to come here to hunt. But, that's as a resident... I can certainly see how it could be frustrating for east-coasters... they are our shared public lands and animals after all. Maybe you'll just have to move out west ;-)

I am with dotman, there is a large portion of DIYers that are making sacrifices at home in their everyday lives just to buy a tag and pay the gas for a week or two of hunting in the west. I have 1 fulltime job and 2 part time jobs that are in the summer, live in a cheap house drive govt surplus vehicles, no smartphone, small smal family vacations to help pay for my Montana trip. I will say i wish i started learning and hunting a more affordable state because now i am at a crossroads pay the premium in Montana or try my chances learning another state. What is the ratio for those of us that are middle class and those that are wealthy NR who knows. I have been trying to move out west but the wife wont go for it. Heck its only a state west but still to far for her.

 

[_Nick_]

I am with dotman, there is a large portion of DIYers that are making sacrifices at home in their everyday lives just to buy a tag and pay the gas for a week or two of hunting in the west. I have 1 fulltime job and 2 part time jobs that are in the summer, live in a cheap house drive govt surplus vehicles, no smartphone, small smal family vacations to help pay for my Montana trip. I will say i wish i started learning and hunting a more affordable state because now i am at a crossroads pay the premium in Montana or try my chances learning another state. What is the ratio for those of us that are middle class and those that are wealthy NR who knows. I have been trying to move out west but the wife wont go for it. Heck its only a state west but still to far for her.

Good points gents. What would really be great is if funding for the fish and game commissions could also come from other recreational users to a higher degree. In Cali there are relatively few hunters compared to the number of hikers/bikers/backpackers that enjoy viewing wildlife. Yet the predominant funding comes from hunters.

So, maybe the best solution, rather than trying to make up for budget shortfalls by putting the loads on non-residents, would be to burden share with other users as well.

 

[jmez]

I can see both sides but I also believe that hunters, as a group, have a great sense of entitlement. Let's be realistic here. No one is hunting because they need to feed their family. The wholesome meat argument always comes up and I agree with that but it would be far cheaper and easier to buy a couple domestic deer and butcher them. If you live in a state where that is illegal, as the westerners say, you can move.

Hunting is a hobby, plain and simple. How many other hobbies do you have where you expect someone else to foot the lions share of the bills? What hobbies aren't expensive? Kind of a double edged sword.

 

[Beendare]

Fair....Ha!...show me one thing everyone agrees is fair

I am Ok with some of the higher non res tag costs [I have 4 diff out-of-state tags in my pocket]


....... its the "getting treated like a red headed step child" in draws, rules and such that I'm not happy about

 

[JWP58]

Life isn't fair. If you don't want to pay out of state fees, don't hunt out of state......or move. And don't tell me its not realistic, because it is.

Since all the non-resident hunters have to pay more, why don't we make it easier for them to draw the sought after tags.......oh wait.....never mind.

 

[_Nick_]

Thinking about this more, I think there's an argument to be made that by increasing resident fees to reduce nonresident fees, you'll be hurting the recruitment of new hunters (as very few new hunters would want to pay out-of-state rates for in-state tags). In the long run, it's probably most important that we keep getting new hunters in the ranks... so chalk that up as another argument in favor of high out of state tag fees.

 

[Craig Van Arsdale]

Or you could balance a budget! Oh wait budgets and government don't go well together.

 

[dotman]

The interesting thing is not only do the NR contribute so much to the budget but they also help many small economies survive. The residents should be thankful many NR's are willing to spend so much on the hunt, vacation, hiking, fishing etc. many small communities would die if NR of all kinds didn't come and spend their money.

 

[muleman]

Apply in Utah as a non-resident. You get treated better than the residents do as far as point accrual and you're not limited to the number of "premium" or OIL tags you can apply for. This allows you to build points for all tags. Residents can only build points for one premium species tag and one OIL species per year. Non-residents do pay more for the tags once you draw.

 

[brewer427]

I can see both sides but I also believe that hunters, as a group, have a great sense of entitlement. Let's be realistic here. No one is hunting because they need to feed their family. The wholesome meat argument always comes up and I agree with that but it would be far cheaper and easier to buy a couple domestic deer and butcher them. If you live in a state where that is illegal, as the westerners say, you can move.

Hunting is a hobby, plain and simple. How many other hobbies do you have where you expect someone else to foot the lions share of the bills? What hobbies aren't expensive? Kind of a double edged sword.

I disagree with you man. I know plenty of men and woman who hunt to provide for there families. These are not people that buy new gear every year, these are people who use the same rifle there dad or grandpa used. With the price that meat is reaching, if a family can go a whole year without having to buy meat, that is a huge financial gain.

 

[JWP58]

I disagree with you man. I know plenty of men and woman who hunt to provide for there families. These are not people that buy new gear every year, these are people who use the same rifle there dad or grandpa used. With the price that meat is reaching, if a family can go a whole year without having to buy meat, that is a huge financial gain.

That's possible, but if you think those folks are making trips out of state and applying for trophy units...I've got some ocean front property in Nebraska to sell ya. Jmez's comment wasn't referencing resident hunters. It was about non resident hunters. If you have the $$$ for gas, tags, equipment, etc, to spend on a 10% chance (average) of putting your tag on a elk and filling your freezer, you have the money to feed your family.

You'd be better off buying a whole damn steer and having it butchered, or going in on one with a couple of people.

 

[brewer427]

That's possible, but if you think those folks are making trips out of state and applying for trophy units...I've got some ocean front property in Nebraska to sell ya. Jmez's comment wasn't referencing resident hunters. It was about non resident hunters. If you have the $$$ for gas, tags, equipment, etc, to spend on a 10% chance (average) of putting your tag on a elk and filling your freezer, you have the money to feed your family.

You'd be better off buying a whole damn steer and having it butchered, or going in on one with a couple of people.

Definitely non-residents that would apply. I read the first 3 sentences and to me that's lumping hunters together as a whole. If just non residents then I agree, but not hunters as a group.

 

[Beendare]

Apply in Utah as a non-resident. You get treated better than the residents do

I love Utah, and would consider a move there if I could. I'm not sure i would agree with you though on res/non res.

How many points does it take you to draw a decent elk tag? Its up to about 15 years and climbing for non res to draw the Archery elk in Bookcliffs little creek unit I hunted in 2005.

I would be applying in Utah...if they didn't lock me out for 5 years after drawing my elk tag. Do they lock out residents? I was so far behind- not worth applying again.

more 'step child' examples,

Wyoming makes it easier for me to draw...IF I pay $1100 for an elk tag [sarcastic thanks]...and then they won't let me hunt in a wilderness area. Aww the money goes to a decent cause.....

Arizona makes us buy a $150 lic just to apply but restricts the amount of tags to 10% max non residents. So lets say a non res wants to hunt the best archery elk unit in the world- U9 in Az, he is looking at over $2,500 in hunting lic fees and about 17 years of applications to draw. So a 30 yr old guy will draw the tag on his 47th birthday- maybe. They did increase his odds in the gen pool by a couple %....but it will probably extend the time it takes him to lock in a tag...maybe his 57th birthday.

If you think that is drastic, look at the draw odds for non res sheep tags.....

 

[tipsntails7]

I see nothing wrong with rewarding resident hunters with better odds, cheaper license and tags. I also don't think NR should be gouged, but if you want to come hunt certain species.. Well that's what it's gonna cost. They may technically belong to the people of the state, but they are still a cash resource that will always attempt to be exploited. I personally will never apply for over a decade for one unit besides sheep and goat. To me trophy units are not that important so I'm not gonna play the games some guys have to. Washington, Idaho, oregon are all great affordable hunting options for NR. With numerous OTC animals out there. Will I shoot a 400 class bull? Nope. But I get to be in the elk woods every single year. That's much more important to me then a once in a lifetime hunt.

 

[Shrek]

numerous OTC animals out there. Will I shoot a 400 class bull? Nope. But I get to be in the elk woods every single year. That's much more important to me then a once in a lifetime hunt.

This , I'll put in for whatever and if I get it great but bottom line is go hunting and be happy with the hunt. A mature bull is awsome and just because he doesn't have the genetics for huge antlers and live where there is great nutrition doesn't make him any less of an animal to me. At hard hunted OTC buck or bull is a much harder adversary than one from a trophy managed unit that get almost no pressure. Now , taking a true monster from an OTC unit is getting it done imo.

 

[muleman]

I love Utah, and would consider a move there if I could. I'm not sure i would agree with you though on res/non res.

How many points does it take you to draw a decent elk tag? Its up to about 15 years and climbing for non res to draw the Archery elk in Bookcliffs little creek unit I hunted in 2005.

I would be applying in Utah...if they didn't lock me out for 5 years after drawing my elk tag. Do they lock out residents? I was so far behind- not worth applying again.

● A premium elk tag for a resident is 15+ points too.

● Residents have the same waiting periods.

Like stated earlier, non-residents have a major advantage in that they can build points across the board. While residents can only build two points a year. One for a premium tag (generally deer or elk) and one OIL species.

 

[tstowater]

As I expected, there have been quite a diverse group of responses. Based on the responses, I'm guessing most of the responses in favor of the NR gouging don't apply in many if any other states than their residence. Seriously, is it fair that a few fortunate hunters of all means draw a limited number of high quality (name species) tags in say, Arizona?

As I have stated before, I have no problem paying more and not having the same opportunity as the residents of state "x", but I don't believe it is fair that the nonresidents pay an unfair share of the hunting fees. As always, just my opinion.