Someone is lying or I am missing something

[Schoolhousegrizz]

You're looking at it inversely. A high buck to do ratio means fewer bucks.

@18/100 that is 5+ does per buck. That is a high ratio
@50/100 that is 2 does per buck. That is a low ratio

Bucks cannot breed that many does in a season. They spend too much time chasing as a doe comes into estrous. He will stay with her until he is finished breeding her and break off and look for another. If you have way too many does you end up with does that are not bred in the primary rut. Mature does will cycle and come back into estrous a month or so later. They will get bred but fawns may or may not have a good enough start before winter hits. Lots of late fawns will die first winter particularly if it is a bad winter. Reducing numbers.

The research shows that almost every single doe is bred even with bucks down into the single digit in buck to doe ratios

 

[Pistolpete28]

10000 deer herd- 20 bucks to 100 does = 2000 bucks
2000 deer herd- 50 bucks to 100 does=
1000 bucks

Good thread, I’m just throwing numbers up for fun, continue on.

 

[robby denning]

10000 deer herd- 20 bucks to 100 does = 2000 bucks
2000 deer herd- 50 bucks to 100 does=
1000 bucks

Good thread, I’m just throwing numbers up for fun, continue on.

hmmmmm, isn't it calculated from...

10000 deer would include all deer, bucks fawn does, so the math of 2000 bucks is way high. 2000 is 20% but a buck:doe of 20/100 would actually be 20 bucks/120 "deer" (throwing out fawns) = 1667 bucks...then only gets lower once you throw in the fawns.

I don't wanna get lost in the weeds but that's my understanding. Come fight me lol

 

[idelkslayer]

Robby is correct. Let's say you have a unit with 30:100 bucks to does and 70:100 fawns to does. That would mean that out of 200 deer, there are 30 bucks, 100 does and 70 fawns.

In a herd of 10,000 deer it would be . 1,500 bucks, 5,000 does, and 3,500 fawns.

This is a great question though and I don't have an answer. If would be great to see a presentation with a few herds as examples that show 20-30 years of history of population, ratios, harvest stats, and habitat differences to understand what is possible in different areas and why.

 

[Pistolpete28]

hmmmmm, isn't it calculated from...

10000 deer would include all deer, bucks fawn does, so the math of 2000 bucks is way high. 2000 is 20% but a buck:doe of 20/100 would actually be 20 bucks/120 "deer" (throwing out fawns) = 1667 bucks...then only gets lower once you throw in the fawns.

I don't wanna get lost in the weeds but that's my understanding. Come fight me lol

Good point! I completely forgot the fawns

 

[Schoolhousegrizz]

Also, I have heard different things about what is counted as a buck. I've heard for example if you have 1,000 fawns they count half of those as bucks and put them in the buck to do ratio. Is this correct?

 

[robby denning]

Also, I have heard different things about what is counted as a buck. I've heard for example if you have 1,000 fawns they count half of those as bucks and put them in the buck to do ratio. Is this correct?

I have not heard that, but I like the way Wyoming publishes their buck to doe ratios cause they always tell you how many of the bucks were yearlings. They may not indicate it right in the ratio, but if there’s an accompanying article it almost always says it. I think this last one with 30+ bucks per hundred does. It was like 10 of those bucks were yearlings.

 

[Caseknife]

Also, I have heard different things about what is counted as a buck. I've heard for example if you have 1,000 fawns they count half of those as bucks and put them in the buck to do ratio. Is this correct?

The counts are usually after hunting season and it is visible antlers.

 

[Schoolhousegrizz]

I have not heard that, but I like the way Wyoming publishes their buck to doe ratios cause they always tell you how many of the bucks were yearlings. They may not indicate it right in the ratio, but if there’s an accompanying article it almost always says it. I think this last one with 30+ bucks per hundred does. It was like 10 of those bucks were yearlings.

Great information, thanks

 

[Schoolhousegrizz]

The counts are usually after hunting season and it is visible antlers.

That is good to hear. I hope that is the way they do it

 

[Billy Goat]

The research shows that almost every single doe is bred even with bucks down into the single digit in buck to doe ratios

Timing is pretty critical. As was said lots of areas resources are limited lots of the year. Every doe might be getting breed, but it might be fawning window of over 3 months.

I have some areas with terrible buck/doe ratios, however you wanna call it, high low, but in that 1 buck to 8 does, maybe worse. I'm getting Fawns from start of May into August, so likely some does are hitting 4 estrous cycles. Those late born fawns are always going to be behind, if they even make it. And we are that limited on resources.


I remember reading a number of years ago the record was a buck only breeding 8 does, I don't know how much they can track that, maybe it was in captivity, or that was in the wild and it's a limited amount they can document, hard to say. But pretty unimpressive if you compare to domestic animals.

Key and point being I think, you want all does breed in a relatively short window, none of them going through more than 2 estrous cycles, most hopefully only 1, atleast for best fawn success.

 

[mtnrunner260]

Timing is pretty critical. As was said lots of areas resources are limited lots of the year. Every doe might be getting breed, but it might be fawning window of over 3 months.

I have some areas with terrible buck/doe ratios, however you wanna call it, high low, but in that 1 buck to 8 does, maybe worse. I'm getting Fawns from start of May into August, so likely some does are hitting 4 estrous cycles. Those late born fawns are always going to be behind, if they even make it. And we are that limited on resources.


I remember reading a number of years ago the record was a buck only breeding 8 does, I don't know how much they can track that, maybe it was in captivity, or that was in the wild and it's a limited amount they can document, hard to say. But pretty unimpressive if you compare to domestic animals.

Key and point being I think, you want all does breed in a relatively short window, none of them going through more than 2 estrous cycles, most hopefully only 1, atleast for best fawn success.

Is this whitetail or mule deer?

 

[Schoolhousegrizz]

Timing is pretty critical. As was said lots of areas resources are limited lots of the year. Every doe might be getting breed, but it might be fawning window of over 3 months.

I have some areas with terrible buck/doe ratios, however you wanna call it, high low, but in that 1 buck to 8 does, maybe worse. I'm getting Fawns from start of May into August, so likely some does are hitting 4 estrous cycles. Those late born fawns are always going to be behind, if they even make it. And we are that limited on resources.


I remember reading a number of years ago the record was a buck only breeding 8 does, I don't know how much they can track that, maybe it was in captivity, or that was in the wild and it's a limited amount they can document, hard to say. But pretty unimpressive if you compare to domestic animals.

Key and point being I think, you want all does breed in a relatively short window, none of them going through more than 2 estrous cycles, most hopefully only 1, atleast for best fawn success.

That is a very good point. Although I think Utah is claiming the vast majority are bred during the first estrous cycle. I could be wrong though.

 

[S.Clancy]

First let me start off by saying, I appreciate wildlife managers and they have a tough job. So we all know that the Utah DWR states that in order to grow deer numbers the highest a buck to doe ratio can be is right about 18 bucks for 100 does. However, I just listened to the rokcast and some units in Colorado are as high as 40, 50 or even 60 bucks per 100 does. Their goal is 35 to 40 in these particular units that were discussed. How are they growing deer to the point where they can even have a limited doe harvest at that many bucks per does when Utah says it's 18. What am I missing?

If I am remembering correctly, UT looked at a bunch of data and studies and determined that peak productivity occurs around 18 bucks per 100 does. If you are thinking graphically, peak productivity would be the steepest part of the population growth curve.

Peak productivity also means maximum replacement, so there is, theoretically, always big age classes.

IMO, there is on important assumption UT is making here too, and that is total population. You will have peak growth rates at lower than maximum population only. Even at the "ideal" 18 bucks to 100 does, at high population levels you cannot have maximum fawn recruitment because nutrition is a limiting factor.

All the above being said, you can certainly grow populations at much higher buck to doe ratios, the rate will just be lower, is UT argument at least.

 

[Billy Goat]

Is this whitetail or mule deer?

Is reproduction much different between them? Conditions will be.


I'm talking about whitetail, it's going to be more critical for MD on timing of fawns. It's also more ground for a buck to cover in that estrous period between does than high population areas here in the east.

 

[mtnrunner260]

Is reproduction much different between them? Conditions will be.


I'm talking about whitetail, it's going to be more critical for MD on timing of fawns. It's also more ground for a buck to cover in that estrous period between does than high population areas here in the east.

I don't know about whitetails but I know UT has done some fawning studies with VITs and I never heard them say anything about fawns dropping outside of the prime window. Not saying that it never happened but certainly not common.

 

[Billy Goat]

I don't know about whitetails but I know UT has done some fawning studies with VITs and I never heard them say anything about fawns dropping outside of the prime window. Not saying that it never happened but certainly not common.

I'd be curious to see information on it, my experience is with domestic ungulates mainly. But even with control's we can use, still have some wide windows.


I can't see in the wild all does are breed without some coming into a third estrous cycle, that's going to over a month and a half later, and putting the fawn that much behind come fall.

Do you know how long the window was they considered prime?

I'm thinking it's best to be within 4 weeks, which is putting nothing past getting bred on second estrous, and that's considering it's the first to be coming into estrous aren't bred, rather than the ones that come in during most activity which would be 12-21 days later than the first, and then puts them another 4 weeks behind.

MD is out of my realm, but a lot of these things don't change much across a number of species.