Snakebit dog - vaccine PSA

[Dos Perros]

My GSP trainer was a vaccine advocate until she had 2 dogs die from allergic reactions to the vaccine.

This is the first I've ever heard anyone say anything like this. Who is the trainer, and when did the dogs die?

 

[*zap*]

doggie jab

 

[Tod osier]

I am leary of scent only snake training. My dog was overly interested in the rattle and hissing…now assume a snake is downwind and the dog just heads/sees and decides to investigate.

We’re searching for a more overall avoidance based class right now that includes sight, sound and scent.

Often these dogs are on the move, quickly and my hope is we can get him trained to immediately change direction/avoid at the first sound of a rattle

Agreed on scent only. I had one dog that got the training "on the job", so to speak, and that worked well for him . I took our youngest dog for a "comprehensive" training (granted one day, only 3 hours) a couple years ago, there was focus on all 3 means and he for sure got it at the time. Time will tell, I have not seem him interact with a snake, so who knows. He will probably get nailed by a snake this week just to show me for mentioning it. Seems like AZ/UT/southern CA are the areas with the most trainings. The guy we went to was from SLC, but was going some classes in Lander.

 

[Mosby]

I see it advertised out around rapid city. I dont worry about it as i dont go out till it gets cold for that reason. I have not ran into any farther west of the river than right on the east edge.

I might look into it if I start hunting west of the river more often. Thanks.

 

[yfarm]

There are well defined clinical indications for the use of prophylactic antibiotics as noted above, this is not one of them.

ClinicalTrials.gov

clinicaltrials.gov

Unified treatment algorithm for the management of crotaline snakebite in the United States: results of an evidence-informed consensus workshop - BMC Emergency Medicine

Background Envenomation by crotaline snakes (rattlesnake, cottonmouth, copperhead) is a complex, potentially lethal condition affecting thousands of people in the United States each year. Treatment of crotaline envenomation is not standardized, and significant variation in practice exists...

bmcemergmed.biomedcentral.com

Review pictures of human viper bites taken over the course of hospitalization and notice absence of any erythema at the puncture site days after the bite.
Does the benadryl and antibiotics cause harm? No, the concern is that the patients and caregivers may think this is adequate therapy and not use antivenin resulting in longer recovery times, increased morbidity including tissue necrosis and limb loss and death. If you live or hunt in viperland, contact your local vets and ERs and find out who stocks antivenin. If bit seek care from facilities that stock the drugs needed for optimal treatment.
In regards the presumed vaccine related deaths these were 2 and 3 y/o previously healthy male gsps who died within days of receiving the vaccine. No necropsies were performed but the trainer felt the temporal relationship of the vaccine administration and no other factors indicated the vaccine was the most likely cause of death. She previously required proof of vaccination before accepting dogs for training. Vaccine related deaths are well known in both human and veterinary medicine.

 

[Fatcamp]

There are well defined clinical indications for the use of prophylactic antibiotics as noted above, this is not one of them.

ClinicalTrials.gov

clinicaltrials.gov

Unified treatment algorithm for the management of crotaline snakebite in the United States: results of an evidence-informed consensus workshop - BMC Emergency Medicine

Background Envenomation by crotaline snakes (rattlesnake, cottonmouth, copperhead) is a complex, potentially lethal condition affecting thousands of people in the United States each year. Treatment of crotaline envenomation is not standardized, and significant variation in practice exists...

bmcemergmed.biomedcentral.com

Review pictures of human viper bites taken over the course of hospitalization and notice absence of any erythema at the puncture site days after the bite.
Does the benadryl and antibiotics cause harm? No, the concern is that the patients and caregivers may think this is adequate therapy and not use antivenin resulting in longer recovery times, increased morbidity including tissue necrosis and limb loss and death. If you live or hunt in viperland, contact your local vets and ERs and find out who stocks antivenin. If bit seek care from facilities that stock the drugs needed for optimal treatment.
In regards the presumed vaccine related deaths these were 2 and 3 y/o previously healthy male gsps who died within days of receiving the vaccine. No necropsies were performed but the trainer felt the temporal relationship of the vaccine administration and no other factors indicated the vaccine was the most likely cause of death. She previously required proof of vaccination before accepting dogs for training. Vaccine related deaths are well known in both human and veterinary medicine.

That study was for lower limb bites only.

We looked at the information on the Snakebite Support group. We had some concerns about the study they use to promote the nonadministration of the vaccine in our situation. We hunt in Diamondback territory, my wife felt their ratios in the study were off from a statistical standpoint, and the statement from the AAHA that is given as support of nonadministration acknowledged that vaccinated mice had a higher survivability rate and the study model had little to do with dogs.

Solid advice on locating a provider who stocks antivenin. I think the work they are doing on education is solid, but we are puzzled by these nonspecific studies being used as evidence in such broad reccomendations.

 

[sacklunch]

There are well defined clinical indications for the use of prophylactic antibiotics as noted above, this is not one of them.

ClinicalTrials.gov

clinicaltrials.gov

Unified treatment algorithm for the management of crotaline snakebite in the United States: results of an evidence-informed consensus workshop - BMC Emergency Medicine

Background Envenomation by crotaline snakes (rattlesnake, cottonmouth, copperhead) is a complex, potentially lethal condition affecting thousands of people in the United States each year. Treatment of crotaline envenomation is not standardized, and significant variation in practice exists...

bmcemergmed.biomedcentral.com

Review pictures of human viper bites taken over the course of hospitalization and notice absence of any erythema at the puncture site days after the bite.
Does the benadryl and antibiotics cause harm? No, the concern is that the patients and caregivers may think this is adequate therapy and not use antivenin resulting in longer recovery times, increased morbidity including tissue necrosis and limb loss and death. If you live or hunt in viperland, contact your local vets and ERs and find out who stocks antivenin. If bit seek care from facilities that stock the drugs needed for optimal treatment.
In regards the presumed vaccine related deaths these were 2 and 3 y/o previously healthy male gsps who died within days of receiving the vaccine. No necropsies were performed but the trainer felt the temporal relationship of the vaccine administration and no other factors indicated the vaccine was the most likely cause of death. She previously required proof of vaccination before accepting dogs for training. Vaccine related deaths are well known in both human and veterinary medicine.

You can copy and paste from a website…congrats.

I find it hard to believe any bird dog owner is dumb enough to think Benadryl and antibiotics could be used in place of antivenin…they are supplemental.

You seem very stuck on this, and I’m honestly questioning your motives…care to divulge what the are? Do you have any data to show documented harm to dogs from the vaccine alone, and if so, at what percentage overall is the vaccine causeing side effects? Any data to support that vaccinated dogs have a higher mortality rate from a diamondback bite than non-vax’d dogs?

And for what it’s worth..my vet is very vaccine hesitant..he combed through our previous records and gave solid reasoning for not administering a handful of other yearly recommended shots. Yet he still recommended the snake vax…he’s done his homework and I’ll take his expert opinion that the risk, at least here in TX, is worth the reward.

And I’ll take my pointer as evidence that the combo of vax, Benadryl, antivenin and then antibiotics was a potent cocktail. He was nearly 100% within 24 hours.

And this coming from someone who’s pretty hardcore anti-vax in general, such that we will be homeschooling vice subjecting my child to the required vax schedules.

 

[KurtR]

I might look into it if I start hunting west of the river more often. Thanks.

Other than early grouse i think i have seen a snake once in my life during pheasant season. I think that clinic they use a defanged snake and hit the e collar on lighting strike.

 

[Fatcamp]

Other than early grouse i think i have seen a snake once in my life during pheasant season. I think that clinic they use a defanged snake and hit the e collar on lighting strike.

Archery deer West River is an adventure. About once a year I get a good scare and consider taking up golf.

Our dog hasn't been bitten but from what I understand the rattlesnakes can feel a canines footfalls and try to hide due to coyotes finding them tasty.

I'm willing to share my hunting areas with anyone who finds them. If they can hang through the heat, cactus, and rattlesnakes they have my respect.

 

[OH_hunter]

The snakes are out this year and doing well from all the moisture we got this winter. I was out scouting a few days ago and came upon this guy. I was planning on standing on this rock pile so I could get a better vantage to glass down into a steep draw. Glad I paused and approached it with caution.

Damn snakes! I would have sat down on that rock and rested - right after I blew his head off with my .410 ! I nearly stepped on this puff adder a few weeks ago in Africa - sent him to snake heaven real quick!!! If he bites you there ain't much left to do but find a shady tree to die under unless you are REALLY close to a hospital.....



I REALLY dont like snakes................

 

[*zap*]

 

[Fatcamp]

For anyone in western South Dakota, Animal Clinic of Rapid City has emergency services around the clock and antivenin in stock. And a very enthusiastic young lady who answers the phone.

There may be others but that's the one I found.

 

[AK_Skeeter]

There is no scientific evidence to support the use of the vaccine. There are a group of ER physicians/toxicologists and veterinarians that are trying to bring order to the chaos that is current bite treatment. They have a group on facebook called Snakebite Support I recommend you read the science based treatment protocols and the rationale why it works. Many ER docs and vets have zero training in the correct current treatment of viper bites. Specifically antivenin and elevation of the bite area with fluid support and pain control are the principles of treatment. Common venoms are hemotoxic and neurotoxic. Antibodies from a vaccine do nothing to counter the effects. Bite responses are not allergic and Benadryl has no role. Being told to use Benadryl or antibiotics in the absence of signs of infection highlights the practioners lack of knowlege of current treatment regimens. Again reference National Snakebite Support on fb, print out the protocols and show your er doc or vet.

Effects of the canine rattlesnake vaccine in moderate to severe cases of canine crotalid envenomation
This scientific study did not identify a significantly protective effect of previous vaccination in the cases of moderate to severe rattlesnake envenomation that require treatment with antivenin. n=82 cases

 

[Cornhusker]

I found this an interesting debate and I'm still torn what to do with my labs. My vet who I hunt with and used to field trial with says no to the vaccine. He has a full kennel of dogs and in my part of the world he's the go to guy for hunting dogs. His reasoning against the vaccine is he doesn't feel the science supports it and he's had several dogs have a severe reaction to the vaccine including one that died. This has convinced me that I need to do more research to make a decision on my labs. We have prairie rattlers not diamondbacks but I still don't to have that issue I guess I've been lucky so far but we do see plenty of snakes.

 

[Fatcamp]

Effects of the canine rattlesnake vaccine in moderate to severe cases of canine crotalid envenomation
This scientific study did not identify a significantly protective effect of previous vaccination in the cases of moderate to severe rattlesnake envenomation that require treatment with antivenin. n=82 cases

"No statistically significant protective effect of the rattlesnake vaccine was suggested in our data, likely due to the small sample size of vaccinated dogs. The potentially life-saving benefits of this vaccine merit further study."

I should have paid better attention during statistics.

 

[yfarm]

Disclosures: Receive no compensation from companies manufacturing antivenin, own no stock in those companies and do not treat snakebite victims. Have received covid vaccines as well as boosters. Have received nearly every vaccine known to mankind as a result of living as a active duty dependent in SE asia in the 1950s. Understand the skepticism in the general population about vaccines after the debacle in the CDC. Read some of the snakebite patient encounter reports and understand why patients and owners should question their care. Had a vet work for me in human healthcare, she quit as a vet after working in 2 different private practices where churning pet owners was the standard of care. My dogs current vet and I have a positive relationship, he has one other owner who also questions him, happens to be an ER doc. I am a skeptic when it comes to vets and dentists. When my dentist started doing botox in the office, I found a new dentist.

 

[AK_Skeeter]

"No statistically significant protective effect of the rattlesnake vaccine was suggested in our data, likely due to the small sample size of vaccinated dogs. The potentially life-saving benefits of this vaccine merit further study."

I should have paid better attention during statistics.

n=82 is a fairly large sample size from a inferential statistics perspective.

 

[FatCampzWife]

Effects of the canine rattlesnake vaccine in moderate to severe cases of canine crotalid envenomation
This scientific study did not identify a significantly protective effect of previous vaccination in the cases of moderate to severe rattlesnake envenomation that require treatment with antivenin. n=82 cases

Read it. Only 17 (14?, can't recall the exact number, but it was less than 20) were vaccinated, and they were of various ages, weights, & co-morbidities. As a longtime scientific journal editor (I get to decide if papers fly (get published) or die), the "statistics" that "support" their claim of vaccines not helping in case of a bite are very flimsy. I'd reject & ask for a more robust vax vs not'vaxxed set of numbers.

The mice paper floating around this thread is interesting, and I feel it actually SUPPORTS the use of the vaccine (for the Western Diamondback). Here's the abstract for that paper (again): https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25710764/ 40% of the vaxxed mice (vxd for the Western D'back) lived more than 48 hours after "bites," while none (0%) of the adjuvent-only (non-vaxxed) mice lived longer than 21 hrs after being "bitten." The vaccine is specific to the WD snake, so not a huge suprise it wasn't super effective for other snakebites...

 

[Fatcamp]

n=82 is a fairly large sample size from a inferential statistics perspective.

My post you quoted was from the study. The authors acknowledge their data is not accurate due to the lopsided samples.

One interesting takeaway from that study is that 5 of the unvaccinated dogs died while none of the vaccinated dogs did. They labeled that as statistically insignificant, which it is because the entire study is flawed. Interesting, but flawed.

 

[*zap*]

if your dog gets in close to a venomous snake you should go after the snake and do not distract the dog...as long as your sure the dog knows the snake is there.

I hate venomous snakes..with a passion.