Snakebit dog - vaccine PSA

[Fatcamp]

There is no scientific evidence to support the use of the vaccine. There are a group of ER physicians/toxicologists and veterinarians that are trying to bring order to the chaos that is current bite treatment. They have a group on facebook called Snakebite Support I recommend you read the science based treatment protocols and the rationale why it works. Many ER docs and vets have zero training in the correct current treatment of viper bites. Specifically antivenin and elevation of the bite area with fluid support and pain control are the principles of treatment. Common venoms are hemotoxic and neurotoxic. Antibodies from a vaccine do nothing to counter the effects. Bite responses are not allergic and Benadryl has no role. Being told to use Benadryl or antibiotics in the absence of signs of infection highlights the practioners lack of knowlege of current treatment regimens. Again reference National Snakebite Support on fb, print out the protocols and show your er doc or vet.

We read through the debate prior to making the decision to vaccinate our dog. It was the right decision for us.

I rembered the conversation at that time being clear that Benadryl was not effective and why I was asking questions again. As far as prophylactic antibiotics being administered following a poisonous snakebite I can't see any reason why you wouldn't do so. I know if I were bit I would damn sure want them.

 

[87TT]

Well hell, if it's on facebook it's got to be true.

 

[sacklunch]

There is no scientific evidence to support the use of the vaccine. There are a group of ER physicians/toxicologists and veterinarians that are trying to bring order to the chaos that is current bite treatment. They have a group on facebook called Snakebite Support I recommend you read the science based treatment protocols and the rationale why it works. Many ER docs and vets have zero training in the correct current treatment of viper bites. Specifically antivenin and elevation of the bite area with fluid support and pain control are the principles of treatment. Common venoms are hemotoxic and neurotoxic. Antibodies from a vaccine do nothing to counter the effects. Bite responses are not allergic and Benadryl has no role. Being told to use Benadryl or antibiotics in the absence of signs of infection highlights the practioners lack of knowlege of current treatment regimens. Again reference National Snakebite Support on fb, print out the protocols and show your er doc or vet.

I believe the Benadryl helps with the immediate inflammatory response, specifically to the airways. Nobody claimed it was an antibiotic, nor that it would help against the venom itself. And to suggest that a snakebit dog doesn’t need an antibiotic is almost laughable. Do you have any idea how the venom kills? And how rotten the prey is when rattlers are ingesting it? Fangs are far more bacteria filled than say an animal bite.

My vets an A&M grad, and is very in touch with the latest science. corrected me many times on the old wives tails i’d repeated.

I trust him and his advice saved my dogs life. Went from drooling, swollen and nearly unable to stand last night at 11pm, to home this morning full of energy by 11am, we went for a swim to cool off and he’s curled up on the couch right now, swelling nearly gone, full appetite, etc. not very often the case for a medium sized dog with a diamondback bite. I’ve seen dogs in the hospital for a week, if they’re lucky.

My question to you…what’s the risk vs reward of some cheap Benadryl and a $25 vaccine? I’ve got thousands invested in my dog, not to mention he’s a part of our family, he deserves every chance he can get, especially something as harmless as some Benadryl.

 

[87TT]

Amen

 

[yfarm]

My GSP trainer was a vaccine advocate until she had 2 dogs die from allergic reactions to the vaccine. Avoidance training 100%. The physicians and vets make the point early transport to a facility experienced in treating viper bites results in best outcomes. Delaying the use of antivenin or temporizing with other treatments only allow the local effects of the venom to become more severe. Just read the published literature in controlled studies of the vaccine and of antivenin and make your own decisions about what works. I live and hunt in a rattlesnake rich environment with bird dogs, my vet also was trained at A&M and told me not vaccinate my dogs and explained to me the same studies I subsequently read and are cited by the Snakebite Support group. Rattlesnake venom kills by the hemotoxic effects and the local effects of that not by infection. Severe swelling leads to ischemia which leads to tissue death and then gangrene. Prevent the swelling by elevation and antivenin you eliminate the downstream effects.

 

[Fatcamp]

My GSP trainer was a vaccine advocate until she had 2 dogs die from allergic reactions to the vaccine. Avoidance training 100%. The physicians and vets make the point early transport to a facility experienced in treating viper bites results in best outcomes. Delaying the use of antivenin or temporizing with other treatments only allow the local effects of the venom to become more severe. Just read the published literature in controlled studies of the vaccine and of antivenin and make your own decisions about what works. I live and hunt in a rattlesnake rich environment with bird dogs, my vet also was trained at A&M and told me not vaccinate my dogs and explained to me the same studies I subsequently read and are cited by the Snakebite Support group. Rattlesnake venom kills by the hemotoxic effects and the local effects of that not by infection. Severe swelling leads to ischemia which leads to tissue death and then gangrene. Prevent the swelling by elevation and antivenin you eliminate the downstream effects.

The theory that antibiotics should only be administered once an infection is diagnosed is gonna meet with significant pushback.

 

[Yoder]

I usually make my dog wear a mask. That along with the vaccine keeps her safe.

 

[sacklunch]

I usually make my dog wear a mask. That along with the vaccine keeps her safe.

That’s the best you could do, after 3 years of lies, is a mask joke?

 

[wesfromky]

My 60ish lb "genetically diverse" dog was bitten on the foot by an eastern rattlesnake about 17 years ago while rock climbing. Stopped by the KY reptile zoo (look them up) on the two hour drive to the vet. They, and my vets basically said no anti venom. Just antibiotics because of how dirty the fangs can be, and anti inflammatories to deal with the significant swelling. He was walking around fine 24 hours later, and back out climbing within a couple days.

I would not be opposed to the vaccine, but have seen a decent amount of conflicting info about it, and rattlers are pretty rare around here. Copperhead bites are much more likely, but not nearly as dangerous.

 

[Yarak]

Childrens Benadryl liquid

We alway add lots of bacon grease to the diet if they will eat
Had this to happen several times over the years

 

[Mosby]

The rattlesnake vaccine is only meant to protect against venom from the Western Diamondback Rattlesnake. It provides no protection against bites from coral snakes, water moccasins, or the Mojave Rattlesnake.

Rattlesnake Vaccine for Dogs | Great Pet Care

Venomous snake bites are a medical emergency for dogs and require immediate care. But could the rattlesnake vaccine help save your dog’s life? Learn more.

www.greatpetcare.com

They say it also helps with Copperheads but I don't have any science to back it up. I get my dogs the vaccine because it's cheap and we live on a lake in NW Arkansas where snakes are abundant.

 

[*zap*]

They say it also helps with Copperheads but I don't have any science to back it up. I get my dogs the vaccine because it's cheap and we live on a lake in NW Arkansas where snakes are abundant.

interesting.

 

[JFK]

The snakes are out this year and doing well from all the moisture we got this winter. I was out scouting a few days ago and came upon this guy. I was planning on standing on this rock pile so I could get a better vantage to glass down into a steep draw. Glad I paused and approached it with caution.

 

[Fatcamp]

Dang snakes. Gonna be a bunch this year, I can feel it.

 

[Zak406]

The theory that antibiotics should only be administered once an infection is diagnosed is gonna meet with significant pushback.

If what the other poster said was true then ortho surgeons wouldn’t give prophylactic ancef right after surgery.

With any vaccination there is risk of death and or side effects.

Benedryl imo after a bite would help in regard to any allergic reaction and could possibly save the air way long enough for other measure to be taken. I doubt it hurts. Worst case it does nothing at all.

Not a vet but I do have some medical knowledge

My female gsp was bit by what we believe was a copperhead down the river. Her back leg ballooned and was pissing black (from muscle break down). Vet gave her and iv and said let it pass. She is fine with no problems 6 years later.

 

[Mosby]

Does anyone know of snake avoidance training in the midwest or upper midwest? I haven't looked recently but when I have looked everything was in the SW. I didn't see anything between Missouri and North Dakota. My understanding is that part of snake avoidance training is based on scent....so it is important to have the specific snake species from that area used in training...ie: getting a prairie rattler from SD for dogs that hunt in SD.

 

[Tod osier]

Does anyone know of snake avoidance training in the midwest or upper midwest? I haven't looked recently but when I have looked everything was in the SW. I didn't see anything between Missouri and North Dakota. My understanding is that part of snake avoidance training is based on scent....so it is important to have the specific snake species from that area used in training...ie: getting a prairie rattler from SD for dogs that hunt in SD.

Last time I looked it up there are people who travel to the dakotas to do them. There is a pretty big mix of approaches, from snake in a bucket and fry them - to something that attempts to teach the dog to avoid from all angles (sight, sound scent) with lots of reinforcement.

 

[chizelhead]

Does anyone know of snake avoidance training in the midwest or upper midwest? I haven't looked recently but when I have looked everything was in the SW. I didn't see anything between Missouri and North Dakota. My understanding is that part of snake avoidance training is based on scent....so it is important to have the specific snake species from that area used in training...ie: getting a prairie rattler from SD for dogs that hunt in SD.

You could reach out to navhda. They could point you in the right direction. You could also reach out to breeders in the area.

 

[sacklunch]

Last time I looked it up there are people who travel to the dakotas to do them. There is a pretty big mix of approaches, from snake in a bucket and fry them - to something that attempts to teach the dog to avoid from all angles (sight, sound scent) with lots of reinforcement.

I am leary of scent only snake training. My dog was overly interested in the rattle and hissing…now assume a snake is downwind and the dog just heads/sees and decides to investigate.

We’re searching for a more overall avoidance based class right now that includes sight, sound and scent.

Often these dogs are on the move, quickly and my hope is we can get him trained to immediately change direction/avoid at the first sound of a rattle

 

[KurtR]

Does anyone know of snake avoidance training in the midwest or upper midwest? I haven't looked recently but when I have looked everything was in the SW. I didn't see anything between Missouri and North Dakota. My understanding is that part of snake avoidance training is based on scent....so it is important to have the specific snake species from that area used in training...ie: getting a prairie rattler from SD for dogs that hunt in SD.

I see it advertised out around rapid city. I dont worry about it as i dont go out till it gets cold for that reason. I have not ran into any farther west of the river than right on the east edge.