“Small-caliber philosophy” for shotguns?

[cuerro viejo]

You may be “crushing” birds landing in a pothole or floating in to your decoys at 15-20 yds. But unless you’re a wing shooting savant, there is no way in hell your “crushing” passing birds with a 410 or 28. There is more than a slight smell of bullshit in this thread.

lol,

a 28ga with #9 tss is 450-540 pellets depending upon what on load. 410 -290pellets

#9 TSS performance is equivalent to #5/6 lead.

20ga #5 lead = 220-275 depending on weight

12ga #5lead=265-371 depending on weight

 

[yeky83]

Thanks for all the replies! Here's some things I'm taking away after reading your posts.

If the small-caliber reasoning is:

• right bullet + low recoil = you suck less and kill more.

The shotgun version with small-bore seems to have an extra variable of pattern:

• right pellets (TSS) + low recoil - pattern

And since pattern > recoil for a beginner like me, seems I'd still suck, kill less, and spend way more (TSS) with small-bore.
If you were skilled, I'm reading from some it can be recoil > pattern.


On barrel length, if I'm reading correctly it's more about the balance than the actual length itself...? Could one get the balance right somehow with a shorter barrel?

 

[FLS]

lol,

a 28ga with #9 tss is 450-540 pellets depending upon what on load. 410 -290pellets

#9 TSS performance is equivalent to #5/6 lead.

20ga #5 lead = 220-275 depending on weight

12ga #5lead=265-371 depending on weight

So YOU are actually killing 40-45 yd passing birds with you light weight 28 and and 410, or are you just regurgitating pellet counts you found online?

 

[FLS]

Thanks for all the replies! Here's some things I'm taking away after reading your posts.

If the small-caliber reasoning is:

• right bullet + low recoil = you suck less and kill more.

The shotgun version with small-bore seems to have an extra variable of pattern:

• right pellets (TSS) + low recoil - pattern

And since pattern > recoil for a beginner like me, seems I'd still suck, kill less, and spend way more (TSS) with small-bore.
If you were skilled, I'm reading from some it can be recoil > pattern.


On barrel length, if I'm reading correctly it's more about the balance than the actual length itself...? Could one get the balance right somehow with a shorter barrel?

I would advise you to go take a lesson and shoot some clays with as many different shotguns as possible before spending money based on what you read on a forum.

 

[Macintosh]

On barrel length, if I'm reading correctly it's more about the balance than the actual length itself...? Could one get the balance right somehow with a shorter barrel?

How short are we talking here? Yes, balance,as well as momentum--having some mass that is farther in front of you adds momentum without adding much weight, and helps with your wingshooting, especially with a lightweight gun. It's not really worth fighting over a couple inches, but you probably are not best-served for wingshooting to go truly short like a tactical shotgun. My initial recomendation was for a 26-28" barrel assuming you go with a pump or semiauto. Shorter than this is abnormally short and is generally for turkeys or indoor use (ie tactical type stuff), longer than this is probably going to feel in the way once in a while carrying it in the woods. A double has a shorter action, so you can add several inches of barrel length and have the same overall length of gun. The answer of whether you can get things "right" is entirely dependant on you...not knowing what you want, where you live, how you'll use it, or what the barrel length question is about--other than an all-around hunting gun--I'd say a 26" pump/semi is great, 24"starts getting noticeably short to me (and harder to find), and 18-20" is downright stubby and will feel correspondingly less stable when moving the gun. But they all go bang just fine. If you're getting one gun to do 17 different things there's going to be some compromises in there, you cant have it all. It's just one more thing to add to the list of priorities. Resale value is another consideration maybe.

As mentioned above, a lesson is never a bad idea. It's not cheap but neither is trial and error. If its within your means it certainly would let you try some of this out and make a more educated decision for yourself.

 

[yeky83]

I would advise you to go take a lesson and shoot some clays with as many different shotguns as possible before spending money based on what you read on a forum.

Will do! Just trying to cover my bases. If I simply went and took some hunt shooting lessons, I might've ended up with a 30-06 rifle--which certainly isn't bad at all but less than ideal with the small-caliber learnings. Wondering if there are similar learnings to be had with shotguns.

 

[WCB]

For 99% of upland and waterfowl hunting decoying birds a 20GA and better yet 28GA will kill birds just as dead as a 12 GA. Lets say upland MOST shots are 30yds and in. If you can't kill them with a 28 or 20 the gauge isn't the reason. And if I had to chose between 20 and 28...28 gets the nod 10/10 times.

.410 for the beginner I wouldn't recommend.

 

[cuerro viejo]

So YOU are actually killing 40-45 yd passing birds with you light weight 28 and and 410, or are you just regurgitating pellet counts you found online?

Yes, and not just me. All hand loads, buying bulk out of China

 

[omicron1792]

I mean, if you want to make that argument.... so does a pellet rifle... there's a major element of skill you are leaving out. Especially for a new hunter.


I have said rifles and shotguns are not equivalent in this argument. And that should be obvious. In your posts it is very apparent that you hunt waterfowl and other game that require non-tox very infrequently and use TSS for it. If you hunted waterfowl 50 times a year would your advice on gauge selection be different? If you had to take TSS/Bismuth etc. out of the equation for costs what would your advice be? The poster has never shot a shotgun in his life. Are you suggesting he pick up a gun that requires very expensive shot to effectively practice with?

I have said over and over cost is a factor. Just not related to the argument at hand.

I didn’t see that this guy was becoming a professional duck hunter. I hunt birds on average 15-20 times a year, but many different kinds. I also have a ton of shotguns.

If I had to get on gun only I would get a semi auto 20 gauge to cover me with ducks. If I got two it would be a 20 and a 28.

That said my benelli ethos cordoba 28 gauge gets most of the action these days.

 

[S.Clancy]

It's the same general math, you are looking for a pellet's ability to penetrate to lethal levels. All this was figured out decades ago and there are tables printed on the back of duck regs that show it.

Shooting with a shotgun comes down to 2 variables:

1. Pattern Density (a direct relationship to pellet size and payload in oz of shot)
2. Penetration (a direct relationship between pellet and velocity)

By shooting a 20 Ga vs 12 Ga you are directly affecting variable #1, knowingly reducing the pattern because you are using a smaller payload of shot. Now, you can make up for this using smaller, more dense shot, that still penetrates the same and be a wash. You can also knowingly reduce payload (by shooting 20, or 28 Ga) and reduce shot distance to accommodate the decrease in pattern density due to decrease in payload. You could also shoot a tighter choke to maintain density better at distance, but that sacrifices short range hit rates.

 

[spur60]

If you have the disposable income, there's no denying the performance that hevishot, HW15, and TSS bring to the table, allowing subgauges to "level the playing field." I just wish I would have bought a few dozen cases of 20 gauge hevishot 4's and 6's years ago when it was closer to $1.25/round instead of $3.50/round.
If I could afford it, I'd shoot nothing but a benelli 20 gauge loaded with tungsten for all of my wing shooting. I do plan on shooting more 20 gauge this fall, but my 12 gauge will still see action 75% of the time. Hard not to shoot the 12 when you're still sitting on a few dozen cases of steel and lead shot all purchased on steep clearances.

Food for thought -
If you want a really fun way to literally burn money, load up TSS 5's in a 2 oz load and flock shoot snow geese hanging above you at 100 yards.

 

[Macintosh]

Regarding hunting everything with tungsten, it has to be a bit situation dependant. I actually think tungsten gives very poor performance at close range. By that I mean that its virtually impossible to get a very wide pattern from tungsten shot...it patterns so tightly that ime even from a cylinder choke I cant seem to get anything more open than about a modified pattern, so it reduces hit rates. A 20ga shooting regular lead works great inside most shotgun ranges for anything other than large steel shot, and with TSS having what I feel is inferior close-range patterns I guess I see it only as a waterfowl/turkey tool. A lot of my bird hunting is at extremely close range, so even if I were made of money I would not be using tungsten where I actually want a very open pattern. If I lived elsewhere and hunted in more open country, it might make plenty of sense though.

 

[ianpadron]

You may be “crushing” birds landing in a pothole or floating in to your decoys at 15-20 yds. But unless you’re a wing shooting savant, there is no way in hell your “crushing” passing birds with a 410 or 2828.

Idk about the .410 but I can tell you with certainty that a 28 gauge with TSS will pillow case any duck on Earth inside 50 yards when properly choked.

Shoot, my main bird hunting buddy smashes wild roosters with lead 6s out of his lil pea shooter 28 gauge out to 30 with zero issue.

 

[ianpadron]

It's a trade off.

A 20 gauge field gun is obviously going to recoil more than a 9 pound clays gun in 12 gauge.

If you want a super light gun to carry, the 20 or 28 gauge versions will recoil significantly less than the 12.

Couldn't pay me to shoot a 12 gauge Benelli UL, yet I've never blinked while shooting my 20 UL at birds.

I ran a 20 for years, Then noticed a good article on shotgun felt recoil. A light 20 will hit harder than a 12 according to the article. Did my own experiment during dove season, both 20 and 12 were 1 oz. 8# . Browning double auto 12 and a Churchill Gobbler 20. The 12 seemed easier on the cheek and shoulder after a few 100 rounds. Plus my thumb likes the side loader better than jambing the end of it on the 20. JMHO. I really like the 28 for doves , but I have to pick my shots carefully. Not a lot of lead out of that one.

 

[Bluefish]

On barrel length, if I'm reading correctly it's more about the balance than the actual length itself...? Could one get the balance right somehow with a shorter barrel?

It’s about swing and sight plane. Longer guns swing more smoothly and a longer sight plane. Skeet used to use 26-28” double barrels, now even they use 30-32”.

The best thing to improve your shotgunning skill is lessons and practice. For practice, 12/20 are the cheapest. 28/410 both cost a lot more, probably double or more. If you reload, they are actually cheaper as they use less shot.

I love my 28ga and use them as my primary sporting and hunting guns. With that said I would not recommend one as a first shotgun simply due to cost. 20 ga would be my recommendation.

TSS is sort of the equivalent of heavy for caliber. It can allow you to reduce payload and still get acceptable pellet counts which reduces recoil, but it comes at a huge cost. $50+ per pound vs lead which is $50 per 25 lbs, so 25x as expensive. I do not use tss for practice and practice is what will get you better so concentrate on something that is cheap to shoot and practice. You will easily spend more on ammo than what a gun costs. Get a shotgun that fits (this is most important), is affordable, and uses inexpensive ammo, then practice lots. Join a trap or skeet league. If recoil is an issue, start reloading and load lighter 12 ga loads. My standard sporting load is 7/8 oz at 1250 for 12 ga or 3/4 oz at 1200 for my 28.

 

[MallardSX2]

Nice set-up, How do the crimps hold up? That's the reason I went with the 28, $9-15 a box vs $20 plus on 410.

No issues.

 

[ianpadron]

Regarding hunting everything with tungsten, it has to be a bit situation dependant. I actually think tungsten gives very poor performance at close range. By that I mean that its virtually impossible to get a very wide pattern from tungsten shot...it patterns so tightly that ime even from a cylinder choke I cant seem to get anything more open than about a modified pattern, so it reduces hit rates. A 20ga shooting regular lead works great inside most shotgun ranges for anything other than large steel shot, and with TSS having what I feel is inferior close-range patterns I guess I see it only as a waterfowl/turkey tool. A lot of my bird hunting is at extremely close range, so even if I were made of money I would not be using tungsten where I actually want a very open pattern. If I lived elsewhere and hunted in more open country, it might make plenty of sense though.

Agree 100%

If all the 12 gauge diehards followed around a dude that could shoot, they wouldn't believe their eyes what a 20 or 28 is capable of in the uplands.

Last shot of the year for me in '24 was a verified 53 step crosser on a hun that flushed wild. Mod choke 20 gauge 7.5s, deader than dirt. To be honest I guessed the range to be closer to 40, but the terrain was deceiving as they were going over a rise.

About 30 minutes prior my aforementioned hunting partner Drew pillow cased a rooster at 25 yards with his 28, didn't twitch.

No tungsten required for 99% of upland hunting, agreed!

 

[C Bow]

Some will get this some won't. I ask my grand paw one time why he only had 1 shotgun a 12 ga and he said boy I am a killer not a hunter because I like to eat. I don't roam these damn mountains for fun. True story.

 

[JFK]

Haven’t read all 5 pages, but shotguns aren’t rifles. People that shoot clays for a living like longer barrels. For a field gun there is a happy medium based on weight and maneuverability, but longer is going to generally shoot better. Using tss for shooting doves and quail isn’t a thing where I live. Buy a 20 or a 12 and be done with it. You can get extremely light recoiling 12 or 20ga shells that make all this discussion seem pointless. I have a 12ga beretta OU. If I had to do it over I might choose a 20ga but in all honesty I take it to the clays course and shoot 100 shells in a couple hours and don’t notice a thing. Fit is far more important. Too short of a LOP and it’s going to smack you in the cheek regardless of gauge.

 

[WRO]

Agree 100%

If all the 12 gauge diehards followed around a dude that could shoot, they wouldn't believe their eyes what a 20 or 28 is capable of in the uplands.

Last shot of the year for me in '24 was a verified 53 step crosser on a hun that flushed wild. Mod choke 20 gauge 7.5s, deader than dirt. To be honest I guessed the range to be closer to 40, but the terrain was deceiving as they were going over a rise.

About 30 minutes prior my aforementioned hunting partner Drew pillow cased a rooster at 25 yards with his 28, didn't twitch.

No tungsten required for 99% of upland hunting, agreed!

I killed multiple birds past 50 last year with my 20 ga. I only shoot lead 7s.

I still shoot a 12 shooting sporting clays, my target gun kicks significantly less than my field gun. Honestly I’ve never thought recoil was even a factor in shotgun shooting.

I hunt with a 20 because it’s lighter to carry.


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