“Small-caliber philosophy” for shotguns?

[cuerro viejo]

New hunter here, I’ve been reading and listening to a lot of the small caliber content from Form and others and learning a lot.

I thought I’d just be a big game rifle guy, but I’m wanting to try my hand at it all! So in looking at shotguns, I wondered if there’s a similar education to be had for shotguns.

With shotguns, the conventional wisdom seems to be that you need a certain amount of weight and barrel length for stability, and a larger bore as one can handle for denser pattern performance. Typically, all that a lighter, lower gauge shotgun is considered good for is being easier to carry around.

But being new to it all, it doesn’t quite make sense to me why one needs all that barrel length to shoot at things at a relatively close distance. And “I suck” has still got to be a factor, so dense patterns of a larger bore be damned if you’ve got low recoil and are shooting accurately with a small bore, no?

But then to get to that 6 ft-lb recoil range, it seems a .410 is needed and that seems… way too small? Does the small caliber, lower recoil stuff hold up when it comes to shotguns, or is it a different ball game?

Yes and no. Smaller gauge# more shot capacity . Larger gauge# less shot capacity, but TSS is a more effective shot then it’s lighter lead and bismuth cousins for its size

A .410 auto with TSS is a very effective duck, turkey, pheasant and goose gun…. But you better reload.

If you don’t reload and TSS OTC ammo is cost prohibitive then ammo gets cheaper with popularity so that leaves with 12 and 20

With that said my homies and I kill hundreds of ducks and geese with TSS with 410 and 28. Its Less recoil and less report with same payload as larger steel or lead rounds and in some cases even better pattering then larger gauges.

Compare a 410 with #9 TSS shot count to 12ga with #4/5 steel

 

[OneGunTex]

There’s a direct correlation. Projectiles matter. 1/2 oz 18g/cc TSS gives pattern density and pellet count in a 410 that puts the biggest 3 1/2” 12 gauge steel shot loads to shame. It’s math.

With that said my homies and I kill hundreds of ducks and geese with TSS with 410 and 28. Its Less recoil and less report with same payload as larger steel or lead rounds and in some cases even better pattering then larger gauges.

Compare a 410 with #9 TSS shot count to 12ga with #4/5 steel

This is misleading. Sure a 410 with TSS will kill lots of stuff (if you can afford it) but you will absolutely have bigger denser patterns with a 20ga shooting the same TSS. While you /could/ make the comparison to match bullets in 223, it's not really fair because ELDMs don't literally cost 12x what CorLokts do. And we mock the concept of "margin of error" in shooting a file bullet into an animal's lungs, but there IS an additional margin of error when shooting a 40" pattern compared to a 20" pattern. It's math

 

[rookieforever33]

If TSS wasnt so expensive I could get a 20 gauge for everything. But a fun goose day can blow through a box of shells pretty easy. A 12 ga shooting 3 inch black clouds is the answer for that. Id love to use a 410 with TSS for tyrkeys though.

 

[EastHumboldt]

With a shotgun you need as much whallop and Killy-ness as you can get. More killyier is better. Suck it…..

 

[False_Cast]

This is misleading. Sure a 410 with TSS will kill lots of stuff (if you can afford it) but you will absolutely have bigger denser patterns with a 20ga shooting the same TSS. While you /could/ make the comparison to match bullets in 223, it's not really fair because ELDMs don't literally cost 12x what CorLokts do. And we mock the concept of "margin of error" in shooting a file bullet into an animal's lungs, but there IS an additional margin of error when shooting a 40" pattern compared to a 20" pattern. It's math

It's not misleading - the question is whether or not the shotgun example is comparable to smaller rifle calibers and it is directly. Of course a 20 gauge is going to throw a more dense pattern but at the cost of more recoil. Likewise a 178 eld is going to have a bigger wound channel than a 77 tmk at comparable velocities, but with more recoil . Good projectiles (small TSS shot vs steel and small good rifle projectiles like the 77 tmk vs a 180 corelok) and it's a direct comparison.

Also, reload TSS. It's not as expensive as you think. Exactly like reloading 77tmk vs buying 77tmk black hills.

Decrease recoil, increase shoot ability, equivalent terminal damage (or more) than the traditionally thought of projectile/chambering "minimums." There's nothing misleading about it.

 

[omicron1792]

I think the comparison is very valid.

New projectiles (tss and tipped match bullets) have made smaller calibers more effective than in the past. You can shoot a 28gauge (or 223) more accurately, especially on follow up shots, than a larger caliber.

I do most of my bird hunting with 28 gauge now. I occasionally will take my 20 gauge if longer passing shots will be needed (woodies). My 12 gauges rarely see the field anymore.

Yes, price is an issue. But that doesn’t really come in to play with the comparison imo. You can use a smaller gauge with great success and see your shots and follow ups better now.

 

[DangerRanger]

In my dreams of 2030 I’m absolutely grenading mallards with 150 tmks at a time

 

[OneGunTex]

It's not misleading - the question is whether or not the shotgun example is comparable to smaller rifle calibers and it is directly. Of course a 20 gauge is going to throw a more dense pattern but at the cost of more recoil. Likewise a 178 eld is going to have a bigger wound channel than a 77 tmk at comparable velocities, but with more recoil . Good projectiles (small TSS shot vs steel and small good rifle projectiles like the 77 tmk vs a 180 corelok) and it's a direct comparison.

Also, reload TSS. It's not as expensive as you think. Exactly like reloading 77tmk vs buying 77tmk black hills.

Decrease recoil, increase shoot ability, equivalent terminal damage (or more) than the traditionally thought of projectile/chambering "minimums." There's nothing misleading about it.

But difference in wound channel doesn't matter. Dead is dead. But difference in pattern size and velocity between 410 and 12ga is substantial and seriously changes your effective range. It's the difference between singles and doubles or the need for follow-up shots or having a shot at all

 

[cuerro viejo]

This is misleading. Sure a 410 with TSS will kill lots of stuff (if you can afford it) but you will absolutely have bigger denser patterns with a 20ga shooting the same TSS. While you /could/ make the comparison to match bullets in 223, it's not really fair because ELDMs don't literally cost 12x what CorLokts do. And we mock the concept of "margin of error" in shooting a file bullet into an animal's lungs, but there IS an additional margin of error when shooting a 40" pattern compared to a 20" pattern. It's math

A viable pattern is not a reflection of amount of shot, it’s restriction to volume of shot. Some of the best patterning gauges are 28ga bores, regardless of shot material

Just because you have a larger volume of shot doesn’t mean it will pattern as well. There are mountains of testing and data available to support it.

With that said TSS is a waste of money in 20 and 12, there is a diminishing ROI, especially if lead is usable. Again if you hand load bulk TSS bought overseas it’s very affordable per shell, but it is an upfront investment.

 

[OneGunTex]

It's not misleading - the question is whether or not the shotgun example is comparable to smaller rifle calibers and it is directly. Of course a 20 gauge is going to throw a more dense pattern but at the cost of more recoil. Likewise a 178 eld is going to have a bigger wound channel than a 77 tmk at comparable velocities, but with more recoil . Good projectiles (small TSS shot vs steel and small good rifle projectiles like the 77 tmk vs a 180 corelok) and it's a direct comparison.

Also, reload TSS. It's not as expensive as you think. Exactly like reloading 77tmk vs buying 77tmk black hills.

Decrease recoil, increase shoot ability, equivalent terminal damage (or more) than the traditionally thought of projectile/chambering "minimums." There's nothing misleading about it.

And, according to www.ballisticproducts.com steel #3 is $2.50/lb, bismuth #5 (what I shoot) is $26.50/lb, and tungsten #9 is $46.50/lb.

So literally the price difference is MORE if you're reloading

 

[False_Cast]

And, according to www.ballisticproducts.com steel #3 is $2.50/lb, bismuth #5 (what I shoot) is $26.50/lb, and tungsten #9 is $46.50/lb.

So literally the price difference is MORE if you're reloading

If you can’t afford TSS, that’s understandable. Reloading 1/2 oz of TSS in a 410 vs buying loaded 410 is a large cost savings. The comparison question was small caliber rifle debate and whether or not it equates to shotguns. It simply does if you look at the terminal ballistics. There are valid reasons why one might not WANT to shoot TSS vs steel or bismuth (or 77 tmk vs core lokts) and budget might be one of them. Terminally, the better projectiles are objectively superior and allow one to suffer less recoil, and shoot more precisely.

 

[cuerro viejo]

But difference in wound channel doesn't matter. Dead is dead. But difference in pattern size and velocity between 410 and 12ga is substantial and seriously changes your effective range. It's the difference between singles and doubles or the need for follow-up shots or having a shot at all

Pattern size is only relevant when it comes to density within pattern, more shot is a larger pattern but a larger pattern means nothing if it’s sparse density, Range is a happy median shot cone of what’s produced close vs far via your pattern density.

Has far as follow up shots. Recoil is your biggest limiting factor.

 

[False_Cast]

But difference in wound channel doesn't matter. Dead is dead. But difference in pattern size and velocity between 410 and 12ga is substantial and seriously changes your effective range. It's the difference between singles and doubles or the need for follow-up shots or having a shot at all

You should read the data. I have provided the link in this thread. Difference in velocity between 410 and 12 gauge? Come on, man. You think it’s easier to shoot a double on the wing with 1 1/8 ounce high speed steel vs 1/2 ounce tss out of a 410? You’re telling on yourself.

 

[silasbowhunter]

The only thing a 12 does better than a 20 is give you more recoil. My coworker shoots 1000s of pheasants, quail, grouse, ducks and geese a year with a 20, 28, or 410.


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[yfarm]

While I hunt larger animals, my hunting preference is birds. I have been bird hunting since age 5 and God willing this fall will be my 68th season. All of my childhood and young adulthood my shotguns had barrels 28-30” in length, around age 36 or so I developed for some reason a liking for shorter barreled shotguns culminating in acquiring an 1100 upland with a 21” barrel and a straight grip stock. Easier to carry, quicker to point( am an instinctive shooter) and lighter. That being said do have Citoris and will say they handle and point slightly better than my autos. Whenever barrel length comes up on forums the issue of sight plane and swing is brought up as justification for longer barrels. After ruminating about my seeming contrary view of things I made some measurements and thoughts that might provoke some responses.
I find that I shoot best with a barrel heavy balance forward of the trigger guard.
My best handling and shooting shotgun including doubles at sporting clays is a Citori lightning with 26” barrels that measures 27” from the front of the trigger guard to the end of the barrel. My son likes a 28” Superposed as the ideal field gun. I measured my short barreled autos for comparison which by the way all have similar balance points to the Citori.
Remington 1100 Youth 20ga with a adult stock and 21” barrel: 8” receiver length, 25.5” front of trigger guard to end of barrel
Remington 1100 12ga Upland 21” barrel, 8” receiver length, 25.5” guard to end of barrel
Mossberg 935 Turkey 21” barrel, 8.5” receiver, 27” length
Beretta 1301 Comp 21” barrel, 8.5” receiver, 26” length
So if my cheek weld is the same on all stocks which it is, my sight plane and balance points are the same with my autos as with my Citoris.
Most competitive clays shooters are using o/us with 30-32” barrels. So all of you bird hunters using autos with 30” barrels are shooting the equivalent of 38” o/u gun.
One other point, I find a mid barrel bead invaluable in teaching gun mounting to young shooters. Consistent cheek weld, figure 8 on the 2 beads, lead and fire.
Comments?

 

[MallardSX2]

It’s the only way….

 

[Macintosh]

While I hunt larger animals, my hunting preference is birds. I have been bird hunting since age 5 and God willing this fall will be my 68th season. All of my childhood and young adulthood my shotguns had barrels 28-30” in length, around age 36 or so I developed for some reason a liking for shorter barreled shotguns culminating in acquiring an 1100 upland with a 21” barrel and a straight grip stock. Easier to carry, quicker to point( am an instinctive shooter) and lighter. That being said do have Citoris and will say they handle and point slightly better than my autos. Whenever barrel length comes up on forums the issue of sight plane and swing is brought up as justification for longer barrels. After ruminating about my seeming contrary view of things I made some measurements and thoughts that might provoke some responses.
I find that I shoot best with a barrel heavy balance forward of the trigger guard.
My best handling and shooting shotgun including doubles at sporting clays is a Citori lightning with 26” barrels that measures 27” from the front of the trigger guard to the end of the barrel. My son likes a 28” Superposed as the ideal field gun. I measured my short barreled autos for comparison which by the way all have similar balance points to the Citori.
Remington 1100 Youth 20ga with a adult stock and 21” barrel: 8” receiver length, 25.5” front of trigger guard to end of barrel
Remington 1100 12ga Upland 21” barrel, 8” receiver length, 25.5” guard to end of barrel
Mossberg 935 Turkey 21” barrel, 8.5” receiver, 27” length
Beretta 1301 Comp 21” barrel, 8.5” receiver, 26” length
So if my cheek weld is the same on all stocks which it is, my sight plane and balance points are the same with my autos as with my Citoris.
Most competitive clays shooters are using o/us with 30-32” barrels. So all of you bird hunters using autos with 30” barrels are shooting the equivalent of 38” o/u gun.
One other point, I find a mid barrel bead invaluable in teaching gun mounting to young shooters. Consistent cheek weld, figure 8 on the 2 beads, lead and fire.
Comments?

This is probably too in the weeds for this thread. All of your points are spot on, but also only tell a small part of the story. Theres total weight, and there’s balance point, but theres also where the weight is concentrated which defines SPEED of handling. Picture a 6-foot long broom stick with a 4lb weight at each end. Compare to the same broomstick, but slide both weights to the center. Both broomsticks are the same length, weigh the exact same, both balance in exactly the same point, but pick them up and try to swing them around. The one with weight at the ends will feel heavy and slow to move—thats a slow handling object with lots of the weight near the extremities. The one with centered weights will feel lighter and easy to swing around—thats a fast-handling object. Guns are exactly like this. This is precisely what people are referring to when they talk about how a gun “handles”.

 

[Macintosh]

Are people really suggesting that a 410 or 28ga that REQUIRES tss to be effective for a relatively significant portion of its use, would make a good choice for a first, do-all shotgun for someone who with almost 100% certainty does not reload? That seems to be what people are saying. Have you all priced loaded tss ammo recently?

No thanks, not for me.

 

[Macintosh]

Asked in another way, I’m reading you’re looking for a couple inches of pellet penetration into the waterfowl, but penetration into what part exactly? Just all over and hope it does enough damage, or something more specific?

Shotguns for wingshooting are pretty much always patterned referencing a 30” circle. Using shot big and dense enough that it will penetrate a bird and break bones at the ranges you expect to shoot them, you need the pattern to be tight-enough that the body of the bird cannot fly through the pattern without being hit by at least several pellets. Hitting them with only 1 or two pellets sometimes works but very often results in a wounded bird that is difficult to recover even with a dog. Wounded ducks dive underwater and cling to underwater vegetation or scoot into cattails or simply swim away. Wounded pheasants run, often a LONG way, and bury themselves in impenetrable cover. There is no such thing as “blood trailing” a bird, short of having a good trained retriever you are looking with your eyes only and they arent easy to see. You really want to completely incapacitate the bird, not just hit it with a pellet so it eventually kills it.

At the same time, a pattern can absolutely be too tight. If you are partridge hunting and birds get up at 5 yards and disappear into brush at 15, a tightly choked gun/load of any gauge is throwing a pattern the size of a softball at that range. It makes it much, much harder to hit them than it needs to be, and if you do manage to hit one you will vaporize it. Pattern tightness is necessarily a compromise, and “effective range” doesnt just start at 0 yards, it begins where the pattern is open enough, and it ends where it isnt tight enough.

 

[omicron1792]

Are people really suggesting that a 410 or 28ga that REQUIRES tss to be effective for a relatively significant portion of its use, would make a good choice for a first, do-all shotgun for someone who with almost 100% certainty does not reload? That seems to be what people are saying. Have you all priced loaded tss ammo recently?

No thanks, not for me.

You are conflating two different things imo.

With modern shells a 410 and 28 gauge can do things they couldn’t do in the past. Similar to 223.

The cost is a separate, but real, issue. Hopefully prices come down.

That said I use non tss for all wing shooting with 28 gauge with great success. The only times I use tss is for ducks and turkey. I duck hunt 2 times a year and shoot maybe 10 turkey loads a year so the cost is worth it. If I used tss for pheasant I would go broke.