“Small-caliber philosophy” for shotguns?

[CMF]

What are you planning to hunt?
I generally go with the biggest caliber, gauge, etc that I'm comfortable with that isn't overkill. I don't see a reason to drop to a 223 if I can shoot a 270 the same.
I feel the same way about the shotgun, but depending on the type of hunt, a 12-gauge can get heavy, and a long gun can be cumbersome in brush(rabbit hunting for example). But I've been squirrel hunting with a 20 and wished I brought my 12 when trying to reach out and get squirrels high up in tall trees. I've also ran deer with dogs, and I would never consider a 20 for that, and it's usually a 3-1/2. More pellets = more chances.

 

[Macintosh]

With modern shells a 410 and 28 gauge can do things they couldn’t do in the past. Similar to 223.

Maybe. Im all ears, I just have never seen them “keep up” with a 20ga with lead shot or bismuth, only from TSS. For sure a 410 and especially a 28 are more capable than people give them credit for, absolutely—but as soon as you get above about 7 1/2 shot, what I have seen is a demonstrable and significant handicap in either pattern size or density (or both) compared to a 20, combined with much higher cost and much lower availability. The ability to extend range via choke even for practice is also limited in a 410–sporting clays is a great way to practice and I dont think a built in handicap is really encouraging or helpful in the long run. My opinion is based on shells right up to today, Im not talking about mid-20th century wads, etc. If Im off base Id love to hear details and nuance, but I really think a blanket statement that 410 and 28 are “plenty capable” for anything including waterfowl when using standard off the shelf ammo is simply inaccurate based on my experience.

Im a longtime bird hunter (35-ish years) and shotgun shooter, but newer waterfowl hunter. I did not waterfowl hunt much last season, but I still went through 100 or so shells. At steel prices thats easy. Bismuth is about 2 1/2x that. Tss is easily 5-6x that, and a 1-year supply if you get into it much more approaches the price of a entry-level semiauto shotgun. Combine that with my total inability to find specialty ammo locally and Id not recommend anyone rely on a niche cartridge without more info about budget, location (can you even mail order ammo where op lives??), etc.

Im a believer in reduced recoil, I just dont see the very-small-gauge juice is worth the squeeze for an all-around gun. This is coming from someone who loaded about 5,000 rounds a year of 3/4oz 12ga shells when I was really into sporting clays. In a rifle you are looking through a scope—your field of view is compromised to begin with and youre trying to be very precise, so recoil makes a big difference keeping eyes on a target. In a shotgun you are not aiming at all, you are focusing on something thats already very close and using both eyes to do it with your full natural field of vision. Less recoil is a benefit for sure, especially with any volume of shooting, but within reason its simply not the issue that it is in a rifle. A 7-71/4lb 20ga is a great compromise between recoil versus versatility, ammo availability, capability, cost etc. An 8lb 12ga really only sacrifices weight and handling to the 20—if you can load up a 410 or 28ga you can just as easily load down a 12ga. Not saying its the only answer to covering everything, but Im pretty convinced its one really good answer to covering everything, even when recoil is a significant consideration. Plus, all those good quality used 12ga’s that the micro-gauge crowd have sitting unused in gunsafes across the country would be a consideration for me too.

 

[Balderdash]

As has been covered, it's a total different wounding mechanism, and, therefore, direct comparison can't be made.

One thing I factor into guage selection for a given target species and conditions is pattern density. I start with the anticipated range and the tenacity of game being hunted, then work back from there. For instance, if I think I need #6's for shots to 40 yds, I pattern different #6 loads in different guages at that distance. I've found it's more difficult to get 20 guages to pattern as consistently as larger guages with shot over 7.5, so generally select a 16 or 12 guage if I feel that shot size is the best for a given scenario. I'm sure shot colum depth plays into it, as well as pellet deformation in various sized tubes.

I can also relate that heavy charges in lightweight sub guages can be more uncomfortable to shoot than a similar charge in a 12 guage. I've shot some youth model 20 guages that people are starting kids off with and thought they'd be better off with a heavier gun in terms of recoil.

For most grouse - ruffed, shaptail, spruce and blue I usually run a 16 GA with 1 1/8-1 1/4 ounce #6. If it's early in the year with heavy cover or there's a lot of wood cock around I'll drop to a 20 or 410 with 7.5's. For pheasant it's 12's with #4 or 5 depending on the distances. For huns it's a 20 with 7.5's.

I generally run bigger shot size than some hunters. I find it's gives better knock down and there's less pellets to degrade the edible meat.

 

[OneGunTex]

You should read the data. I have provided the link in this thread. Difference in velocity between 410 and 12 gauge? Come on, man. You think it’s easier to shoot a double on the wing with 1 1/8 ounce high speed steel vs 1/2 ounce tss out of a 410? You’re telling on yourself.

I also posted the data and calculations in this thread.

I also clearly stated that comparing apples to apples, TSS to TSS, a 12ga outperforms a 410 due to velocity and pattern density/size at range in a way that is meaningful in a shotgun. Likewise, shooting #2 steel, a 12ga outperforms a 410 due to velocity and pattern density/size at range in a way that is meaningful in a shotgun.

Please, go on and show me how many pellets in a 20" circle at 50yds with your 410 load of TSS, and with a 12ga load? Is it still going fast enough to penetrate effectively?

 

[omicron1792]

I also posted the data and calculations in this thread.

I also clearly stated that comparing apples to apples, TSS to TSS, a 12ga outperforms a 410 due to velocity and pattern density/size at range in a way that is meaningful in a shotgun. Likewise, shooting #2 steel, a 12ga outperforms a 410 due to velocity and pattern density/size at range in a way that is meaningful in a shotgun.

Please, go on and show me how many pellets in a 20" circle at 50yds with your 410 load of TSS, and with a 12ga load? Is it still going fast enough to penetrate effectively?

A 338 Lapua will be at a killing velocity at 1000 yards, while a 223 loses that ability at 400. Yet most shots will take place within the 400 yard killing zone.

Same with your 12 gauge vs 410 at 50 yards. Of course at some distance the 12 gauge will win. But most shots aren’t made at that distance on most game.

 

[Kcardwell]

Just picked up a single shot 410 for turkey hunting in Oregon not sure how it’s gonna work but I’m going to give it a shot

 

[OneGunTex]

A 338 Lapua will be at a killing velocity at 1000 yards, while a 223 loses that ability at 400. Yet most shots will take place within the 400 yard killing zone.

Same with your 12 gauge vs 410 at 50 yards. Of course at some distance the 12 gauge will win. But most shots aren’t made at that distance on most game.

I disagree. This is where the analogy between shotguns and rifles really falls apart. At every range, you will have more pellets in your circle, with a larger margin around it, with a 12ga vs a 410. By definition.

Comparing birds at 25/50yds to elk at 500/1000yds is not a reasonable comparison.

 

[Billy Goat]

To ask another beginner question...

What is it that actually kills waterfowl and small game when you shoot it with shotgun pellets?

With rifles aiming for the lungs/heart, you're depriving the animal of the blood/oxygen it needs.
With turkey shooting in the head/neck, you're doing spinal/brain damage.

But what about waterfowl where you’re shooting off hand and leading the shot and all? Is it more about injuring and rendering them unable to fly away? Or is it still about landing pellets to the vitals—I don’t think you’re bleeding them out, is it still about head/neck shots?

I dont know if this really got answered.

Shot guns kill by putting pellets in the vitals like every other weapon, to "stone" a bird it takes a CNS hit, central nervous system. Thats what stops everything, pellet in the head, neck, or spine stops movement, but pellets in the lungs/heart is what causes them to bleed out and is usually what actually kills them. Or the golden BB to the brain. But you don't always end up with a dead bird in hand either.

Shotgun patterns are fairly large unless turkey hunting. So pellets in the head will usually also have pellets in the lungs, unless it's under 20 yards or so, or you fringe the bird.



There's really not any difference in a 410 and a 10 gauge, in terms of they are both launching whatever pellet at the same speed(mostly), it's just with a 10 you have way, way more pellets. The sub gauges were considered expert guns. Smaller payload, tighter chokes, you need to be a better shot to be effective with them. Now with different pellet materials, it changes things a bit.

Pellets hit at random in a pattern, the bigger the payload, the more pellets you have to hit vitals over a larger area. Bigger payload and more recoil too. Smaller pellets in same oz of shot gives you more pellets too, but won't pemetrate as much.

 

[omicron1792]

I disagree. This is where the analogy between shotguns and rifles really falls apart. At every range, you will have more pellets in your circle, with a larger margin around it, with a 12ga vs a 410. By definition.

Comparing birds at 25/50yds to elk at 500/1000yds is not a reasonable comparison.

The arguments sound an awful lot the same….

 

[lil' bear]

A 338 Lapua will be at a killing velocity at 1000 yards, while a 223 loses that ability at 400. Yet most shots will take place within the 400 yard killing zone.

Same with your 12 gauge vs 410 at 50 yards. Of course at some distance the 12 gauge will win. But most shots aren’t made at that distance on most game.

I don't think it's fair to compare rifles and shotguns in that manner. A 338 vs 223 are firing different bullets different pressure. Where shotguns are firing the same projectiles at the same velocity. True a factory 12 is like 60fps faster than a factory 410. Off a reloading bench it's the same.

The only real difference between gauges is pellet count and shot string. And for anybody who likes to be nerdy the 16g is considered a "square" load and mathematically produces the best patterns.

As long as your ammo patterns well with your gun and your talented enough to put rounds on target there's no reason a 410 won't do everything under the sun. The problem is most people aren't that talented and therefore the 20g is probably the best. Unless you're cross eyed and uncoordinated and you require a 12g. But knowing it only takes half a dozen pellets to drop a bird. You could be successful shooting snake shot out of a 22lr if you could manage to hit anything with it.

At the end of the day the real question isn't how much does it take to effectively kill. The question is how much does it take for you to effectively put rounds on target.

 

[Macintosh]

Same with your 12 gauge vs 410 at 50 yards. Of course at some distance the 12 gauge will win. But most shots aren’t made at that distance on most game.

Thats the rub. 50 may be stretching things much of the time, but plenty of goose hunters take 50 yard shots by using more, larger shot. Ducks and pheasants 35-40yards is pretty common. The issue is that enough shots ARE at those ranges. If you’re treating a shotgun like a rifle and aiming it at a stationary target, you can accomplish having sufficient pattern desnity by focusing less shot into a smaller pattern without it being a massive handicap at closer ranges…hence the popularity of a 410 with tss for turkey hunting. But the small gauge gun is still limited by volume, and a dense-enough pattern necessarily means either smaller shot (which necessitates $$$$ dense shot like tss in order to penetrate sufficiently at range) or a smaller pattern, or both…which makes it a lot harder to hit stuff. Just for an example, several times in this thread people mentioned a 20” pattern…even 20” is a huge handicap compared to a 30” pattern which has been the standard for 100+ years. A 30” pattern has more than double the area of a 20” pattern , it is MUCH easier to hit flying things with a bigger pattern. The issue is that you simply need enough pellets to fill the larger circle. If you are ok with making things harder than they need to be or limiting your range below what it could easily be, then sure, a micro-gauge shotgun is very effective. Otherwise, as I said before, its a noticeable limitation. But thats more like a stick-bow vs compound bow analogy versus any sort of rifle analogy.

The “small caliber bullets” thing relies on bullets that have a built-in wounding mechanism, ie fragmentation. The closest analogy to that is tss—it is harder so it patterns tighter, and it is more dense than lead so you can use smaller shot. The main issue is that it is far more expensive and its easy to go thru a lot of shotgun ammo. Bismuth helps you get +\- the same performance as lead, so its a more affordable non-tox option but doesnt really offer any advantage over lead performance-wise. The difference and where the rifle analogy breaks down is that pellets dont expand like a bullet, one #7 pellet from a 410 is +\- the same as one from a 12ga, and the whole thing relies on hitting a bird with multiple pellets—looking at apples:apples pellets, its the pattern that matters not the pellet. For sure if you want to use steel, but even with lead or bismuth, you dont have to get very far out before the physical size of a 410 or 28ga shell prevents getting enough shot in it to have a dense-enough pattern of big-enough shot. It simply comes down to “what size pellet do I need, and how many of those does it take to fill a 30”+ circle at the range I want to be capable”. If a shell doesnt fit at least that many pellets (plus some because no pattern is 100% efficient), its a handicap.

 

[Bluefish]

There isn’t quite a direct equivalent for shotguns. All shot gun loads are roughly the same speed, from about 1000-1400, with 1200 being a standard load. Also the shot used is the same, just different amounts depending on gauge. TSS is close in that it lets you use smaller gauges with equal performance, but it’s very expensive. A single shell costs what a box of lead load costs. In skeet which shoots 12, 20, 28, and 410, scores for the first three are similar, but drop off for 410 due to low pattern density.

A standard 410 load is 1/2 oz, while a standard 12Ga load is 1 1/8 oz, over twice as many pellets. TSS can make up some of that difference because it’s increased density allows smaller shot to penetrate deeper, which means that you can use smaller shot and get higher pellet count. But you can also do the same thing in the larger gauges and extend your range. Steel goes the other way and it helps to have a larger gauge to handle the relatively light, fluffy shot. Steel also needs a little extra velocity to help with its lower bc.

As already mentioned length is for longer sight radius and smoother swing. Longer guns swing more smoothly and that helps with crossing shots.

 

[OneGunTex]

As long as your ammo patterns well with your gun and your talented enough to put rounds on target there's no reason a 410 won't do everything under the sun. The problem is most people aren't that talented and therefore the 20g is probably the best. Unless you're cross eyed and uncoordinated and you require a 12g. But knowing it only takes half a dozen pellets to drop a bird. You could be successful shooting snake shot out of a 22lr if you could manage to hit anything with it.

At the end of the day the real question isn't how much does it take to effectively kill. The question is how much does it take for you to effectively put rounds on target.

@omicron1792 this is what i'm talking about. Shooting a 223 vs a 338 isn't about the "talent" of the shooter. In fact, an "untalented" shooter will kill more things with a 223 than with a 338 (due to recoil) and with a 12ga than with a 410 (due to pattern)

 

[omicron1792]

@omicron1792 this is what i'm talking about. Shooting a 223 vs a 338 isn't about the "talent" of the shooter. In fact, an "untalented" shooter will kill more things with a 223 than with a 338 (due to recoil) and with a 12ga than with a 410 (due to pattern)

I hear you. I just disagree. I think with shotgun bird hunting and multiple shots “most” hunters would kill more with a smaller gauge that allows for less flinching, recoil anticipation, and faster and better follow up shots.

I came to this conclusion on my own. I did a tower pheasant shoot where the wisdom was to “use a 12 gauge for the big birds and long shots.” By around my 75th shot my shoulder was black and blue and I had to will myself to shoot again.

The next year I took my 28gauge and killed more than ever before. I now use it almost exclusively for all my wing shooting. I have more fun and kill just as many birds.

 

[wind gypsy]

I never shoot shotguns anymore but when i used to go through 5+ cases of steel shot a year 3" 1 1/4 ounce 12 ga loads were the happy balance of being plenty to kill ducks and geese at will without pounding the crap out of yourself. I never warmed up to 3.5" shells. My shooting actually regressed with them.

I see shotguns different than the smaller rifle cartridge discussion. A 1-1.25 ounce load in a Semi 12 gauge isn't that punishing.

 

[olsont2]

Depends on what you use it for, I prefer a "heavier" larger gauge for waterfowl as it seems to be more shooting and sometimes longer distances. Nothing better than a light O/U for upland hunting though. Not as high frequency of shots and closer shots (hopefully)

 

[FLS]

If you take out turkey hunting applications, they is no scenario where a small gauge shotgun will give you an advantage wing shooting. Period. You can compare apples to oranges , a small gauge shooting uber expensive TSS to a twelve shooting large steel and the playing field is leveled some, but load the 12 gauge with TSS and you’re shooting a longer more dense shot column at moving targets. Hit percentages way go up.
Also light weight compact shotguns are some of the worst shooting and hardest kicking shotguns out there. My light 20 kicks much more than my standard weight 12 with similar loads. I coached scholastic sporting clays for about a decade. A gas operated 12 gauge shooting an ounce of shot 1100 - 1200 that fit was the easiest shotgun for the kids to be successful with. If they could afford it a Beretta 390-391 was the softest shooting most reliable gun at the time. In a decade of actually counting hits and misses never saw a sub gauge shooter out shoot a 12 gauge shooter.

 

[Steve300xcw]

I generally run bigger shot size than some hunters. I find it's gives better knock down and there's less pellets to degrade the edible meat.

Yup. There was a time when I was hunting upland with whatever was cheapest. Which normally meant 7-1/2's, 8's or 9's. Killed a lot of stuff while not knowing any better

Swapped to 6's after an old fart shared some opinions and have not looked back. Get less runners, and have to pick out a lot less shot/feathers than I used to.

 

[Macintosh]

I hear you. I just disagree. I think with shotgun bird hunting and multiple shots “most” hunters would kill more with a smaller gauge that allows for less flinching, recoil anticipation, and faster and better follow up shots.

I came to this conclusion on my own. I did a tower pheasant shoot where the wisdom was to “use a 12 gauge for the big birds and long shots.” By around my 75th shot my shoulder was black and blue and I had to will myself to shoot again.

The next year I took my 28gauge and killed more than ever before. I now use it almost exclusively for all my wing shooting. I have more fun and kill just as many birds.

If you really want to smack them in comfort, shoot a light load out of the 12…you get the benefit of the likely heavier gun to help further tame any recoil, similarly light recoil, even better patterns due to a shorter shot column, plus cheaper ammo. Keep in mind that a tower shoot is usually hitting overhead birds with the head and vitals exposed though—its easier to get away with smaller shot. The standard british load for driven pheasants was always an ounce of shot out of a 12ga, sometimes as light as 7/8oz. Thats the equivalent of a 20ga target load.

The difference really comes in when you add non-toxic shot to the list of requirements, and especially if the birds are fully feathered and flying away from you so vitals arent exposed—we dont know how OP is going to use this gun but iirc waterfowl hunting was specifically mentioned and the idea was to “do it all”. If you are shooting steel 3’s or 2’s for waterfowl in order to buy factory ammo and not spend half a mortgage payment in the process, it becomes a lot harder to stuff enough of them into a 28ga hull, let alone the 410 a few folks were bringing up. Even bismuth starts to run out of steam there in a subgauge either due to lack of sufficient density to penetrate, or due to pattern density.

 

[FLS]

My go to 12 gauge load for everything except pheasants and waterfowl is 7/8 oz of 7.5 going 1250-1300. AA or STS hull, silver Claybuster wad and Clays powder. Easy on the shoulder, enough gas to reliably cycle my Beretta and enough speed to break long clays and kill gun shy high flying late season doves.