Signatures Delivered to Colorado for Wolf Ballot Initiative

[mt100gr.]

View attachment 142739

Cute. Read "Wolf Wars".

 

[S.Clancy]

Cute. Read "Wolf Wars".

I have, albeit not recently.

 

[BuzzH]

Reintroduction under 10j did not favor pro wolf advocates...in fact a majority of the pro wolf groups opposed it, big-time. Under 10j it allowed for immediate lethal control of wolves...both the reintroduced and wolves that had already colonized nw Montana. The wolf advocates would have much rather preferred not to reintroduce under 10j to keep them under full protection under the ESA. It was a huge concession by the pro wolf groups.

The flexibility under the 10j was used almost immediately after reintroduction. I saw one of the first half dozen kill permits issued via the 10j rule in the late summer of 1997.

 

[mt100gr.]

Agreed, it was a concession. But it was a means to an end. As we all know, there was actually a lot of "science" involved in those initial recovery efforts. Conceding that wolves could be shot on private land was a sacrifice they were willing to make knowing that wolves would gain enough of a foothold out of harms way to establish viable populations.

No one knew how hard they'd be to kill once they had dispersed and established territories. Then came federal protection.

History is just that. Arguing right vs wrong won't change anything. The politics of biology and wildlife management could serve as lessons but to me it seems that CO is skipping the biology part and history has taught us that "management" is open to interpretation depending on where the money is coming from.

 

[BuzzH]

Wolves in Montana Idaho and wyoming never did get full federal protection under the ESA after reintroduction, not sure where you're coming up with that. Also, lethal control was not limited to private land.

 

[mt100gr.]

I never said they were ESA listed. They were however protected until those states could all produce management plans that were acceptable to the federal agency, correct?

 

[BuzzH]

There's a difference between full protection of a species under the ESA and a non essential experimental population reintroduced under the 10j rule. Both fall under the purview of the ESA, just different levels of acceptable management.

Yes, all three states had to have accepted management plans in place to take over management once recovery goals were met. Montana and Idaho both had accepted plans in place but wyoming did not. Montana and Idaho eventually grew tired of wyomings lack of an accepted plan and broke away from wyoming via the Simpson/Tester rider...iirc attached on an omnibus budget bill in I believe 2011.

 

[Ross]

Ultimately the population grew WELL above the breeding pair requirement for management the courts held up the ability to manage them before they got out of control in backcountry areas many want to hunt they then decimated herds and here we are trying to help another state avoid the the travesty that occurred in Idaho and Montana

 

[mt100gr.]

So my next question is ( not necessarily directed at buzz) if CPW does, in fact, oppose reintroduction, will there be a length of time between reintroductions and when a management plan is approved? Or will CPW be tasked with completing the reintroductions according to the management plan put together when/if the initiative passes? Will the management plan need to be approved by FWS?

If CPW has the reigns for drafting the plan and implementing the order, it will be very interesting.

 

[BuzzH]

Ultimately the population grew WELL above the breeding pair requirement for management the courts held up the ability to manage them before they got out of control in backcountry areas many want to hunt they then decimated herds and here we are trying to help another state avoid the the travesty that occurred in Idaho and Montana

Wyoming held up delisting....

 

[wapitibob]

So my next question is ( not necessarily directed at buzz) if CPW does, in fact, oppose reintroduction, will there be a length of time between reintroductions and when a management plan is approved? Or will CPW be tasked with completing the reintroductions according to the management plan put together when/if the initiative passes? Will the management plan need to be approved by FWS?

If CPW has the reigns for drafting the plan and implementing the order, it will be very interesting.

If I remember correctly, the Measure compels the state to create a management plan. As far as the feds go, Section 6 of the ESA deals with the states. Although different circumstances than the MT/WY introductions, Buzz may be able to shed some light on how the process will unfold. When I contacted the USFWS they hadn't formed an opinion on a course of action should the measure pass. In the end, this may drag on thru the courts for years.

"(c) COOPERATIVE AGREEMENTS.—(1) In furtherance of the purposes of this Act, the Secretary is authorized to enter into a cooperative agreement in accordance with this section with any State which establishes and maintains an adequate and active program for the conservation of endangered species and threatened species. Within one hundred and twenty days after the Secretary receives a certified copy of such a proposed State program, he shall make a determination whether such program is in accordance with this Act. Unless he determines, pursuant to this paragraph that the State program is not in accordance with this Act, he shall enter into a cooperative agreement with the State for the purpose of assisting in implementation of the State program. In order for a State program to be deemed an adequate and active program for the conservation of endangered species and threatened species, the Secretary must find, and annually thereafter reconfirm such finding, that under the State program — "

 

[mt100gr.]

Interesting. And thanks for that.

So unless there are some major changes in the approach, should it pass, it appears that wolves will be introduced under some part of the ESA umbrella?

 

[wapitibob]

Everything I have read leads me to believe that is the case; but, I’m no lawyer and again, Buzz dealt with this stuff first hand and for a lot of years. He’s the go to guy. You might pm him so you two can carry on a conversation without interjection from the gallery. I think you’ll find he’s a pretty good guy.

 

[mt100gr.]

Everything I have read leads me to believe that is the case; but, I’m no lawyer and again, Buzz dealt with this stuff first hand and for a lot of years. He’s the go to guy. You might pm him so you two can carry on a conversation without interjection from the gallery. I think you’ll find he’s a pretty good guy.

Copy that.

I have come to appreciate buzz's experience and am aware of his long term involvement with these issues. I have already found him to be a good guy during some unpopular MT issues with closing mountain goat districts here in MT region 1.

I don't mind the interjection from the gallery - hot topics should be discussed as long as things stay on topic for the most part. It'd be unhealthy if we ALL agreed on everything.

 

[Okhotnik]

Reintroduction under 10j did not favor pro wolf advocates...in fact a majority of the pro wolf groups opposed it, big-time. Under 10j it allowed for immediate lethal control of wolves...both the reintroduced and wolves that had already colonized nw Montana. The wolf advocates would have much rather preferred not to reintroduce under 10j to keep them under full protection under the ESA. It was a huge concession by the pro wolf groups.

The flexibility under the 10j was used almost immediately after reintroduction. I saw one of the first half dozen kill permits issued via the 10j rule in the late summer of 1997.

Sure is humorous that you only bring up Montana in wolf management discussions

Do they have 10 j wolf management in Wisconsin , Minnesota , Michigan , Oregon and Washington

 

[BuzzH]

Sure is humorous that you only bring up Montana in wolf management discussions

Do they have 10 j wolf management in Wisconsin , Minnesota , Michigan , Oregon and Washington

Last I checked those states weren't in the tri-state agreement...

 

[Usi05]

Tagged to keep following this.

Growing up in Michigan’s Up, I have watched the wolf #’s climb and think all states should handle management. Sure seems like whitetail #’s we’re higher when I was 18 (31 now).

I also can see why our ancestors killed off wolves and brown bears.

The other part of me thinks everything works in cycles. You see that with animal herds every year. Too many predators and game #’s go down for a few years. Predators die off or move due to eating themselves out of food and game #’s come back.

Hunted (and expect to be moving soon) idaho this fall and we heard the wolves. When they were around you didn’t hear a peep. Local guy we talked with insisted that they ruined that spot we hunted.

Just interested in education before taking a stance.


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[agardner00]

Since there are no facts presented here, and the argument is hinged on what amounts to gossip, there is nothing I can prove. Good job, Shrek Jr.

Fellas, let’s not forget what’s important here; that The Big Lebowski (in a tie with Jeremiah Johnson) is the finest cinematic accomplishment of the 20th century.


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[Poser]

The Big Lebowski is definitely one of my favorite movies from the 90s. The 20th Century? I don’t know. You’d have a hard time beating out “2001 Space Odessy” also, let’s not forget “Roadhouse”

 

[agardner00]

The Big Lebowski is definitely one of my favorite movies from the 90s. The 20th Century? I don’t know. You’d have a hard time beating out “2001 Space Odessy” also, let’s not forget “Roadhouse”

I’ll let the Dude respond to that...

Actually, you could make a case for several others, Citizen Kane for instance. Just wanted to make some broad, unquantifiable generalizations.


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