Rifle Advice

[Fishermen0105]

Shoot more rounds… maybe a t1x and tikka twist 223 and keep the 270. Im not a big magnum fan myself. Could probably have both for around $1200. Good luck.

 

[35WhelenAI]

KE is not what you are looking for, the bullet must have velocity at the impact range to expand. I am not a member of the .223 club, however KE isn't what's getting it done with those small bores. Bullet upset is doing the talking.

Now to back it up a bit... Where are all these tags being purchased for, that a half mile shot is something "to be ready for"? Not just you, but Lord, a lot of guys are looking for that. Buy a gun or have it made, buy a scope, buy some alpha binocs, buy a spotter, et al.

Your .270 is more than adequate, and downright a fine choice for 99% of the hunting you will find elk in. I see a big gleam in your eye, but it's not what this place can make it out to be. 600-800 yards is a DAMN long ways, a range to shoot at least that distance or more is a requisite.

As well, what makes the Axis a "good but not great gun" for you? Accuracy, not aesthetically up to snuff, what is it?

"Forgiving" is not built into absolute mechanical devices. They are what they are. Either it shoots straight or it doesn't. Then, the hunter/shooter is what is left. Which leads back to the practice and repetition.

I really like the post above, keep the .270 and regardless if you get that 600-800 shot in your lifetime, you will be an infinitely better rifleman by the round count with a .223.

 

[Clark33]

I’d say step one would be open to learning from people who have the knowledge and experience. Then I’d suggest taking a LR course if possible from a reputable trainer or organization.

Like mentioned, get a 223 or 6cm or anything you can find a bunch of ammo for and shoot the piss out of without beating yourself up or developing bad habits.

That would be my starting point if I were to go back to my beginnings, and I would have probably saved a lot of money and frustration in doing so.

 

[Lil-Rokslider656]

Welcome to RS!

I suggest taking the advice - even if not exactly an answer to the question you posed - without reading negative intent into it. And if you do read it that way, you can always ask if that is what was intended.

You also may want to edit out or hold off on insults and name calling, even if encoded with initials. It often leads to a short membership and there is lots to be gained here.

If you haven’t read the 223 thread, you may also not realize that recommending you shoot one isn’t some form of hazing or talking down to put you in a junior or small caliber. I think that advice is given, and that cartridge (with the right bullet) is selected, by more and more members - including for elk.

Copy, editing. Was trying to use a common saying ** you in particular to make the point at one person vs the guiding community at large.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

You too huh?

So as a guide; do you not see the irony that your job was probably built around the premise of putting guys who have no business being in the mountains in the position to take shots they have no business taking so you can get paid? Commmeeeee onnnn.

Sorry this is probably going to make some of the very good guides mad, but it was really meant as as an insult to you in particular.

You don’t know me; or my dedication. But it should be a hint that I’m asking for build advice rather than buying a 5k rifle and hiring a “guide”.

Oh boy…

Glad you are dedicated. Congratulations. That doesn’t negate the fact that you coming into here asking “I want to shoot to blah blah yardage” isn’t proof that you have no clue what you’re doing. Seeking advice from this forum is a great idea on your part, now it’s time to listen and learn instead of instantly getting your feelings hurt.

No ill intent was meant on my part, trying to help you gain an understanding of what you’re trying to learn to do. I’ll continue to ignore your pointless red herring rant aimed at me.

 

[fwafwow]

Copy, editing. Was trying to use a common saying ** you in particular to make the point at one person vs the guiding community at large.

I also edited it from the one I quoted. Yeah, I get the point of trying to avoid insulting an entire community but it inadvertently came out as a direct insult to one person, which is best avoided.

I too have goals of some long range hunting but I’ve been on here long enough, and am of such an age, that I realize *personally* have a lot of hurdles to overcome. But FWIW I’ve decided the Tikka 223 is my starting point (but I’d do the same in a Sako S20 if available, or 6CM if Tikka had one) - and I’ve got “nicer” and larger caliber rifles in my safe.

 

[Lil-Rokslider656]

KE is not what you are looking for, the bullet must have velocity at the impact range to expand. I am not a member of the .223 club, however KE isn't what's getting it done with those small bores. Bullet upset is doing the talking.

Now to back it up a bit... Where are all these tags being purchased for, that a half mile shot is something "to be ready for"? Not just you, but Lord, a lot of guys are looking for that. Buy a gun or have it made, buy a scope, buy some alpha binocs, buy a spotter, et al.

Your .270 is more than adequate, and downright a fine choice for 99% of the hunting you will find elk in. I see a big gleam in your eye, but it's not what this place can make it out to be. 600-800 yards is a DAMN long ways, a range to shoot at least that distance or more is a requisite.

As well, what makes the Axis a "good but not great gun" for you? Accuracy, not aesthetically up to snuff, what is it?

"Forgiving" is not built into absolute mechanical devices. They are what they are. Either it shoots straight or it doesn't. Then, the hunter/shooter is what is left. Which leads back to the practice and repetition.

I really like the post above, keep the .270 and regardless if you get that 600-800 shot in your lifetime, you will be an infinitely better rifleman by the round count with a .223.

Right, thats why I call it “stopping power” probably sounds dumb, but its kind of the combination of the two. I don’t like the idea of big slow bullets and I don’t like the idea of light fast bullets. More of a combination of the two. I like your term bullet upset. And i think the .270 does a great job of upset to about 400 yards.

Funny you should ask about tags, there are a variety of places I hunt. Imll likely be spending places where most shots will be sub 200….. but there is always that one spot. There is a ridge I have hunted from several times during archrey season; kind of that perfect 2 miles from the trailhead and nearest road. Good vantage and camping point, its like low 600 to the farthest point of the next ridge and slope. I’ve seen elk use that a lot during archrey season. There is no good “closer” option as you cant see that slope from the top or bottom. I’ve spent quite a bit of time glassing from that ridge and day dreamed of shooting an elk from there. Should draw that rifle tag in 2024.

By forgiving, I’m talking more about combination of the round and MOA. If you have a 1/2 moa vs 1 moa at 600, we’re talking 3 inches. Add the smaller wind drift of a lower BC bullet and we could be talking another 3 inches. I’m a math nerd and an analyst by trade. If you tell me that I’m over thinking, I will believe you. But i kind of believe the math that ultimately a better build results in less moa, and a higher bc bullet leads to less drift, and together these equate to more “forgiveness”. I believe the same to be true for arrows, and could very well be misguided in thinking I can equate that logic to rifles. But its my starting point.

 

[35WhelenAI]

^^^Nice post^^^
Beginning with the end in mind is a good start with a couple years to go until that tag.

 

[wakedye]

Right, thats why I call it “stopping power” probably sounds dumb, but its kind of the combination of the two. I don’t like the idea of big slow bullets and I don’t like the idea of light fast bullets. More of a combination of the two. I like your term bullet upset. And i think the .270 does a great job of upset to about 400 yards.

Funny you should ask about tags, there are a variety of places I hunt. Imll likely be spending places where most shots will be sub 200….. but there is always that one spot. There is a ridge I have hunted from several times during archrey season; kind of that perfect 2 miles from the trailhead and nearest road. Good vantage and camping point, its like low 600 to the farthest point of the next ridge and slope. I’ve seen elk use that a lot during archrey season. There is no good “closer” option as you cant see that slope from the top or bottom. I’ve spent quite a bit of time glassing from that ridge and day dreamed of shooting an elk from there. Should draw that rifle tag in 2024.

By forgiving, I’m talking more about combination of the round and MOA. If you have a 1/2 moa vs 1 moa at 600, we’re talking 3 inches. Add the smaller wind drift of a lower BC bullet and we could be talking another 3 inches. I’m a math nerd and an analyst by trade. If you tell me that I’m over thinking, I will believe you. But i kind of believe the math that ultimately a better build results in less moa, and a higher bc bullet leads to less drift, and together these equate to more “forgiveness”. I believe the same to be true for arrows, and could very well be misguided in thinking I can equate that logic to rifles. But its my starting point.

Right, thats why I call it “stopping power” probably sounds dumb, but its kind of the combination of the two. I don’t like the idea of big slow bullets and I don’t like the idea of light fast bullets. More of a combination of the two. I like your term bullet upset. And i think the .270 does a great job of upset to about 400 yards.

Funny you should ask about tags, there are a variety of places I hunt. Imll likely be spending places where most shots will be sub 200….. but there is always that one spot. There is a ridge I have hunted from several times during archrey season; kind of that perfect 2 miles from the trailhead and nearest road. Good vantage and camping point, its like low 600 to the farthest point of the next ridge and slope. I’ve seen elk use that a lot during archrey season. There is no good “closer” option as you cant see that slope from the top or bottom. I’ve spent quite a bit of time glassing from that ridge and day dreamed of shooting an elk from there. Should draw that rifle tag in 2024.

By forgiving, I’m talking more about combination of the round and MOA. If you have a 1/2 moa vs 1 moa at 600, we’re talking 3 inches. Add the smaller wind drift of a lower BC bullet and we could be talking another 3 inches. I’m a math nerd and an analyst by trade. If you tell me that I’m over thinking, I will believe you. But i kind of believe the math that ultimately a better build results in less moa, and a higher bc bullet leads to less drift, and together these equate to more “forgiveness”. I believe the same to be true for arrows, and could very well be misguided in thinking I can equate that logic to rifles. But its my starting point.

Right, thats why I call it “stopping power” probably sounds dumb, but its kind of the combination of the two. I don’t like the idea of big slow bullets and I don’t like the idea of light fast bullets. More of a combination of the two. I like your term bullet upset. And i think the .270 does a great job of upset to about 400 yards.

Funny you should ask about tags, there are a variety of places I hunt. Imll likely be spending places where most shots will be sub 200….. but there is always that one spot. There is a ridge I have hunted from several times during archrey season; kind of that perfect 2 miles from the trailhead and nearest road. Good vantage and camping point, its like low 600 to the farthest point of the next ridge and slope. I’ve seen elk use that a lot during archrey season. There is no good “closer” option as you cant see that slope from the top or bottom. I’ve spent quite a bit of time glassing from that ridge and day dreamed of shooting an elk from there. Should draw that rifle tag in 2024.

By forgiving, I’m talking more about combination of the round and MOA. If you have a 1/2 moa vs 1 moa at 600, we’re talking 3 inches. Add the smaller wind drift of a lower BC bullet and we could be talking another 3 inches. I’m a math nerd and an analyst by trade. If you tell me that I’m over thinking, I will believe you. But i kind of believe the math that ultimately a better build results in less moa, and a higher bc bullet leads to less drift, and together these equate to more “forgiveness”. I believe the same to be true for arrows, and could very well be misguided in thinking I can equate that logic to rifles. But its my starting point.

Being an analyst you will find there is a lot of good information to analyze on this forum. Formidulosus has posted a lot of good info on this forum about hit percentages. There is much more that goes into hit percentages than just how well a gun can be shot and the mathematical “forgiveness” that a bullets bc potentially creates. I am near the beginning of the journey to becoming proficient at longer ranges. This last year I shot about 800-900 rounds with about 750ish being from a 223. The other rounds were from my 270 win. With my 270 I can consistently hit targets out to 800 + at the places I practice with approximately 1 moa accuracy. This year I shot an elk at 450 yards and I hit about 4-5” from my point of aim. This equates to roughly 2 moa. Even though I know this gun shoots about 1 moa I didn’t perform in the field this year. There was no noticeable wind when I took the shot so I believe there was at least an additional moa of shooter error. If you search posts by formidilosus and several others you will find that Cartridges with less recoil are more forgiving. Even though one cartridge may have a better BC, a cartridge with less recoil and lower bc might produce a higher hit percentage because of recoil.

I am also a very analytical person but what I have started to find is that analyzing bullet performance on paper is much different than performance when shooting them in the field and at the range.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Lil-Rokslider656]

Being an analyst you will find there is a lot of good information to analyze on this forum. Formidulosus has posted a lot of good info on this forum about hit percentages. There is much more that goes into hit percentages than just how well a gun can be shot and the mathematical “forgiveness” that a bullets bc potentially creates. I am near the beginning of the journey to becoming proficient at longer ranges. This last year I shot about 800-900 rounds with about 750ish being from a 223. The other rounds were from my 270 win. With my 270 I can consistently hit targets out to 800 + at the places I practice with approximately 1 moa accuracy. This year I shot an elk at 450 yards and I hit about 4-5” from my point of aim. This equates to roughly 2 moa. Even though I know this gun shoots about 1 moa I didn’t perform in the field this year. There was no noticeable wind when I took the shot so I believe there was at least an additional moa of shooter error. If you search posts by formidilosus and several others you will find that Cartridges with less recoil are more forgiving. Even though one cartridge may have a better BC, a cartridge with less recoil and lower bc might produce a higher hit percentage because of recoil.

I am also a very analytical person but what I have started to find is that analyzing bullet performance on paper is much different than performance when shooting them in the field and at the range.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

First, congratulations on your elk! That is an accomplishment.

I’m reading through a lot of the . 223 forms now. A lot of good info in there. Again, as an archrey guy I do understand the importance of practice and repetition. I shoot probably 10+- arrows a day in my garage just to drill form.

Years ago before I really got into archery I shot my rifle quite a bit. I have at least 500 rounds through it from when I prepared for my first oregon elk hunt many years ago. It was the hunt that opened my eyes to the overcrowding otc tags in oregon and set the trajectory to where I’m at now 5 plus year of archrey hunting and building rifle points. I also have an AR that I have put thousands of rounds through, quite a bit of those in the 300 yard range plinking steel.

It again is not the information that Formidulosus had to share; its how he shared it. I find it akin to post hijacking when you don’t acknowledge an initial question and recommend an alternate solution. And it get under my skin, I’m putting that out there in case anyone missed it . I get that long range shooting and hunting takes lots of practice, but my question was related to my a setup that I’m preparing to commit years too.

 

[Lil-Rokslider656]

Oh boy…

Glad you are dedicated. Congratulations. That doesn’t negate the fact that you coming into here asking “I want to shoot to blah blah yardage” isn’t proof that you have no clue what you’re doing. Seeking advice from this forum is a great idea on your part, now it’s time to listen and learn instead of instantly getting your feelings hurt.

No ill intent was meant on my part, trying to help you gain an understanding of what you’re trying to learn to do. I’ll continue to ignore your pointless red herring rant aimed at me.

I get it where you are coming from. And I understand that you’re intention was good. But good intention is not a get out of jail free card when it comes to insults. I feel that the assumptions made were insulting. I have thick skin and my feelings weren’t “hurt”; just as I’m sure yours were not. But I did feel aggravation and irritation which are obvious from my responses

I only hope that you can get where I am coming from too.

I ask a question; specifically about setup(s). And I get the recommendation that I should practice more……

 

[huntnful]

First, congratulations on your elk! That is an accomplishment.

I’m reading through a lot of the . 223 forms now. A lot of good info in there. Again, as an archrey guy I do understand the importance of practice and repetition. I shoot probably 10+- arrows a day in my garage just to drill form.

Years ago before I really got into archery I shot my rifle quite a bit. I have at least 500 rounds through it from when I prepared for my first oregon elk hunt many years ago. It was the hunt that opened my eyes to the overcrowding otc tags in oregon and set the trajectory to where I’m at now 5 plus year of archrey hunting and building rifle points. I also have an AR that I have put thousands of rounds through, quite a bit of those in the 300 yard range plinking steel.

It again is not the information that Formidulosus had to share; its how he shared it. I find it akin to post hijacking when you don’t acknowledge an initial question and recommend an alternate solution. And it get under my skin, I’m putting that out there in case anyone missed it . I get that long range shooting and hunting takes lots of practice, but my question was related to my a setup that I’m preparing to commit years too.

Good luck in your long range journey. I suggest reading back over the previous replies WITHOUT a defensive attitude. Excellent guidance. I can provide nothing more, for fear of getting under your skin lol.

 

[huntnful]

Nah, actually I'll help a little. If you're not going to hand load, you should probably get a 7mm cartridge to have true 800 yard potential from factory ammo. 7 PRC would be fine if you can secure ammo first. 180 ELDM would be my choice.

Now that that's out of the way, you do actually need to learn how to shoot. Some way, somehow. You need to get a good 1000 rounds down range between now and your desired hunt. Your scope and scope mount choice is FAR more important than your cartridge choice. Invest in the scope first and foremost.

Two guns of similar setup, but different cartridges is obviously ideal if you can afford it. Put 1000 rounds through the practice gun, and several hundred through the killing gun out to 1000 yards. If not, better buy a shitload of factory ammo when you find it.

 

[Reburn]

I ask a question; specifically about setup(s). And I get the recommendation that I should practice more……

Dude. You got the best answer and the only one that matters. And he didnt say practice more. He said buy this setup and practice more. You didnt even learn what he said that made you offended. If you just want whatever beliefs you have validated your in the wrong spot. If you want to learn your in the right spot but you will have to stop crying about the presentation hurt your feelings. All of us here that shoot as far as your asking to, shoot alot. Just like archery there isnt a replacement for reps.

 

[Rob5589]

Your first post is all over the place. From upgrading your Savage, to a trued 700, to a Sig, to a T3. Keep reading, all the knowledge you'd want is here in the various forums. Take your time, learn from those with vast experience, and you'll get there eventually.

 

[Flyjunky]

I don’t know anyone that has bought a PRC/magnum/etc and actually shot it enough to gain any skill.

I’m on my 2nd 300wm barrel in 2 years.

 

[nobody]

Yup, I'll second what Form and others are saying, even though you don't like the advice.

You're going into this backwards. Being an avid archer, you understand what it takes to be successful at archery. You don't need the new Matthew's every year, you don't need high dollar broadheads or the latest camo pattern to kill. What you do need is insane amounts of practice, an intimate understanding of your setup and your own personal limitations, and some luck. The exact same thing is going on with long range shooting and hunting. A few boxes per summer is not enough practice, no matter what your granddad told you. When you draw a bead on an animal at 500 yards, you need to understand your own shooting ability well enough to know when you should and should not be pulling the trigger.

On my first "big" elk hunt a few years ago, I went every day, after work, all summer long, and would shoot one entire box of ammo from field positions out to about 800 yards. I did it in wind, rain, low light, you name it. I also went early mornings on saturdays and would shoot another box quite often. I went through roughly 100-120 boxes (2k-2400 rounds) of factory ammo leading up to that hunt, and boy did I feel like I was ready. Then, on the 4th day, I flubbed my setup time and missed an opportunity on a bull at about 500 yards. I luckily ended up re-finding him later that day and was able to put him down, but I flat out screwed up earlier that day.

What was my screw up? Time. I underestimated how much time setting up from standing, with my pack and rifle on, was going to take me. It took astronomically more time than I had anticipated, I hadn't really practiced it (even though I had shot a ton from field positions all summer), and it cost me chip shot opportunity that morning in Central Utah.

You don't need more gun, you don't need "more kinetic energy," or "hydrostatic shock" or whatever buzz word is all the rage right now with gun writers (go read the .260/6.5 thread and check out would channels and results from guys who use them, you'll see none of that matters in real world land). What you need is astronomical amounts of trigger time with applicable practice. Practice with your pack on and your bino harness (just like you would in Archery), practice in the wind (just like you would in archery), practice in poor light and bad weather (surprise, just like you would with archery).

That being said, I don't blame you for wanting to dump your Salvage rifle in favor of something better. A tight twist 223 Tikka makes great practice and is cheap to shoot (relatively), and another Tikka (honestly, I would stick with a 270, since you probably already have ammo for it), for keeping sharp on your hunting rifle will do anything you'd ever want to do. Pick an appropriate bullet for the 270, like an ELDX or SST, practice a piss-load with the 223, and come back in a couple years and show us the pics of the bull you end up with. That 270 isn't what's holding you back, and with the right bullet and enough practice, you'll never want for anything more.

 

[Formidilosus]

I’m on my 2nd 300wm barrel in 2 years.

I didn’t say no one has ever done it, I said I don’t know anyone that has. Did you start learning to shoot long range with the Win mag?

 

[PredatorSlayer]

Then maybe you should have started with that line of thought by; recommending sometime closer to the 6.5 creed option and recommend I shoot the piss out of it for good measure.

Its the way in witch you offered “advice” that has rubbed me wrong. To me this came off as the stereotypical mod who jumps in just to shit on the new guy asking questions and trying to become more involved.

And now; while we are here on the topic; I disagree whole heartedly that “learning to shoot” is all that actually matters. Stopping power; however you define it; plays a large part.

.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

DON'T HAVE TIME TO READ 176 PAGES? HERE'S THE CHEAT SHEET. “Bullets matter more than headstamps.” “Spent primers offer the supreme tutorial”. I’ve read it here and elsewhere online. It got my attention. I started digging and asking questions and listened. The 77gr TMK delivered by a .223...

rokslide.com

I recommend reading through this entire thread before you start throwing jabs on this forum. The results are very interesting with lots of pics to support conclusions.

 

[PredatorSlayer]

If your state doesn’t allow .223’s for big game, check out the 6mm CM shooting 108 gr eldms. I have one and it is one of three main big game rifles in my rotation.