Properly Sealing Blackhorn Charge

[eltaco]

Hey all,

I’m new to muzzleloader this year and been building my setup for this Fall’s hunt. I’m hunting CO, so no sabots for me - I plan to shoot a full bore conical (Thor or Fury.) I’ve been reading some mixed opinions on Blackhorn 209 for this case. Some people say BH209 will need a better seal and to avoid it at all costs, others say it’s the best powder on the market and use conicals with it. Seems like some polar opposite advice.

I understand a base wad is recommended for this use case, as I can clearly see voids between rifling and where it engages the bullet. I have a 100pc veggie wad from Dennis at Fury which me sure around 0.524” (.50 cal bullet).

I’d really love to hear from those with experience using BH209 in the field. I am likely to encounter anything between 70F and blizzard conditions, and plan to hunt backcountry for 9 days. Is BH209 manageable with the proper wad? What’s your recommendation?

 

[ENCORE]

Always use a wad when shooting BH. The veggie wad you have will work. You want bullets to load with around 20# of force in a fouled barrel. That force is after you start the bullet down the barrel with a short starter. The Fury Universal fit bullet can be shot without a veggie wad.
If you're using a 209 ignition, I would highly recommend CCI209M or Federal 209A primers.

It would scare me to know exactly how much BH I've shot since it became available over a decade ago. I've went through 5# in less than 3 months shooting Fury bullets and have tested bullets for Dennis that never hit the market. That shooting was all done with a .50cal Ultimate BP Express rifle with the ASG replacement breech plug and BH209. I'm no longer shooting a 50 and shoot a custom 45 with LRMP's in modules.

As long as you're using the proper ignition system, veggie wad and magnum primers, also using bullets that are sized to about 20# in a fouled barrel, you should not have any issues.

 

[eltaco]

Always use a wad when shooting BH. The veggie wad you have will work. You want bullets to load with around 20# of force in a fouled barrel. That force is after you start the bullet down the barrel with a short starter. The Fury Universal fit bullet can be shot without a veggie wad.
If you're using a 209 ignition, I would highly recommend CCI209M or Federal 209A primers.

It would scare me to know exactly how much BH I've shot since it became available over a decade ago. I've went through 5# in less than 3 months shooting Fury bullets and have tested bullets for Dennis that never hit the market. That shooting was all done with a .50cal Ultimate BP Express rifle with the ASG replacement breech plug and BH209. I'm no longer shooting a 50 and shoot a custom 45 with LRMP's in modules.

As long as you're using the proper ignition system, veggie wad and magnum primers, also using bullets that are sized to about 20# in a fouled barrel, you should not have any issues.

Thanks for that info, I greatly appreciate it.

Primers are insanely tough to come by now, but I have a buddy who offered up 100 ea Federal and CCI. Should be set for a while.

Good to know the Fury Universal can be shot without a base wad. I have 20 of those for testing right now. Im completely new to this so didn’t want to make any assumptions, but I measure that base wad at only 0.509”, so wasn’t confident if they’d “seal” the BH or not. They’re also interesting to load. More challenging to get started, but once the plastic base wad rifles in, it’s an easy push to the breech plug.

I also have 20 Fury Startip 2 and 15 Thor rounds for load development. I’ll try those veggie wads for each.

I know that’s not a ton of rounds, but hopefully enough to figure out how each of the 3 options perform out of my gun so I can make a selection for this Fall.

My breech plug is a Bestill 2pc for my Knight Mountaineer. I bought this gun used here, but talked with Jeff about it a bit to gain an understanding. Should be good to go on the ignition side.

 

[ENCORE]

Thanks for that info, I greatly appreciate it.

Primers are insanely tough to come by now, but I have a buddy who offered up 100 ea Federal and CCI. Should be set for a while.

Good to know the Fury Universal can be shot without a base wad. I have 20 of those for testing right now. Im completely new to this so didn’t want to make any assumptions, but I measure that base wad at only 0.509”, so wasn’t confident if they’d “seal” the BH or not. They’re also interesting to load. More challenging to get started, but once the plastic base wad rifles in, it’s an easy push to the breech plug.

I also have 20 Fury Startip 2 and 15 Thor rounds for load development. I’ll try those veggie wads for each.

I know that’s not a ton of rounds, but hopefully enough to figure out how each of the 3 options perform out of my gun so I can make a selection for this Fall.

My breech plug is a Bestill 2pc for my Knight Mountaineer. I bought this gun used here, but talked with Jeff about it a bit to gain an understanding. Should be good to go on the ignition side.

If you have Jeff's ignition system, you don't have any worries

 

[tdhanses]

I’ve only used a wad when shoot lead and I’ve only ever used bh209, I’ve shot Thor’s, federal bor lok, Hornady‘s and lead conicals without issue. I have not shot the lead much.

I bought a pack of the Fury universal in 285gr to compare to the federal Bor Lok’s in 270gr that I know do really well for me.

The Thor’s shot really well for me but I didn’t like their performance.

But the Fury and Federals also will seal much better so shouldn’t have an issue.

 

[eltaco]

I’ve never used a wad and I’ve only ever used bh209, I’ve shot Thor’s, federal bor lok, Hornady‘s and lead conicals without issue. I have not shot the lead much.

I bought a pack of the Fury universal in 285gr to compare to the federal Bor Lok’s in 270gr that I know do really well for me.

The Thor’s shot really well for me but I didn’t like their performance.

But the Fury and Federals also will seal much better so shouldn’t have an issue.

View attachment 302626View attachment 302627

Thanks for that info.

Regarding Thor performance, was it their lethality you had troubles with? Sounds like they shot well for you, curious what issue you encountered.

I haven’t thought to try the Federals. As long as those are CO-legal, I’ll consider giving those a try if I can find them. The new Hornadys look great, as well, but can’t seem to locate any.

I’m surprised and thankful to hear you’re had success with BH209 and no base wads with these options. Blackhorn website says they done recommend full bore conicals, and some folks say I’ll have issues with misfire, though it’s not clear if they’ve even used BH or are just making the assumption.

On another note: When sizing my bore, I tried all 3 bullet options and found no rifling on the bullets after pushing through. They all essentially just mashed to fit the bore diameter. I imagine they all orbitrate fine, but is that a normal experience? When I sized my Lyman, the bullets clearly twisted as they rode down the rifling.

 

[ENCORE]

That's smooth sizing and you won't see rifling marks. If you do, they're way to tight.

 

[tdhanses]

Thanks for that info.

Regarding Thor performance, was it their lethality you had troubles with? Sounds like they shot well for you, curious what issue you encountered.

I haven’t thought to try the Federals. As long as those are CO-legal, I’ll consider giving those a try if I can find them. The new Hornadys look great, as well, but can’t seem to locate any.

I’m surprised and thankful to hear you’re had success with BH209 and no base wads with these options. Blackhorn website says they done recommend full bore conicals, and some folks say I’ll have issues with misfire, though it’s not clear if they’ve even used BH or are just making the assumption.

On another note: When sizing my bore, I tried all 3 bullet options and found no rifling on the bullets after pushing through. They all essentially just mashed to fit the bore diameter. I imagine they all orbitrate fine, but is that a normal experience? When I sized my Lyman, the bullets clearly twisted as they rode down the rifling.

It’s been awhile but they didn’t seem to open up from what I remember, they did the job just fine I just wasn’t happy that it didn’t fully expand.

Federals are CO legal but the Fury universal if it shoots good is what I’ll use this year, I prefer its overall design.

I‘ve never had a misfire using BH209 and when hunting I leave a load in the entire time, just keep water out of the barrel and it’s fine.

 

[MuleyFever]

I may have missed it but you dont want a wad behind a Thor. I have hunted with Thor bullets and BH209 for the last several years with not a single ignition issue. The bullets make nice big mushrooms too.

 

[5MilesBack]

I haven’t thought to try the Federals. As long as those are CO-legal, I’ll consider giving those a try if I can find them.

Where are you located? I have a few packs of the Federals......both copper and lead.

 

[eltaco]

Where are you located? I have a few packs of the Federals......both copper and lead.

I’m stuck in the flatlands here in KS, unfortunately!

Actually love it out here, but do long for the mountains!

What weight are those? I have 300gr Thor’s and 325gr Furys

 

[tdhanses]

I’m stuck in the flatlands here in KS, unfortunately!

Actually love it out here, but do long for the mountains!

What weight are those? I have 300gr Thor’s and 325gr Furys

If you have the Fury Universals I wouldn’t worry about the Federals unless you can’t get the Fury to group well.

 

[eltaco]

Well, I got to shooting this week and have learned a lot in a short time. A couple of early findings:

- First shot with a clean barrel is no good. Could be 2’ low at 100yds. Second shot right on target. Guess I need to learn how to pre-foul my barrel now.
- 0.501” is a perfect fit with a clean barrel. 0.501” does not fit with a fouled barrel.
- It is actually feasible to shoot a bullet sideways. I had one hit the target at 100yds with a perfect side profile.

So I’m having some interesting results. Doing load development with an 18x scope and I have found loads that will hold 1-1.5”. However, I have an occasional bullet completely miss the target, and I have no explanation as to why right now. Actually yesterday I had 3 in one session, so that wasn’t very confidence inspiring.

Yesterday I shot 80gr (v) and 85g (v) BH209 with Federal 209A primers. Fury 320gr Universal fits with no base wad. That bullet either hits dead middle for me or completely misses. I’ll be working to figure out why.

Fury full bore conicals seem very consistent with a base wad and BH209, but I ran out of 0.5005” and my 0.501” are scary tight with a fouled barrel. I managed to get one jammed in, and that was my sideways impact at 100yds. Probably won’t shoot more of those.

So a few questions as I try figure out what’s going on.
- How critical is packing pressure? I’m confident each round was seated, but I don’t have a packing technique.
- Should I try a veggie wad with the Fury Universals?
- Any recommendation for cleaning between shots? I’ve not been cleaning after every shot these past two days.
- Any other words of wisdom would be appreciated!

 

[WRM]

Weigh your charges.

 

[eltaco]

Weigh your charges.

Weighed each of them. 0.7 x volumetric. 56gr by weight for 80gr by volume and so on. Put each weighed charge in a marked charge tube.

My plan is to shoot 80, 85, 90, 95, and 100gr by volume (each weighed at 0.7x vol) and group each to understand down range performance. Unfortunately the odd hits are making this a challenge.

 

[WRM]

Been there. May want to hire a voodoo priest. Some of the stuff that happens with muzzleloaders.....

 

[Jc2020]

I use bh 209 with federal bore locks in my cva optima And really like it. I started out with pyrodex I like bh a lot better definitely a lot cleaner

 

[ENCORE]

So a few questions as I try figure out what’s going on.
- How critical is packing pressure? I’m confident each round was seated, but I don’t have a packing technique.
- Should I try a veggie wad with the Fury Universals?
- Any recommendation for cleaning between shots? I’ve not been cleaning after every shot these past two days.
- Any other words of wisdom would be appreciated!

When you seat your bullet, seat it tight with both hands. You don't have to pound it down, just seat the bullet tight.

You could try a veggie wad but, most have found its not necessary.

Cleaning always depends on the rifle. My best accuracy comes from running a DRY PATCH in and out between rounds.

More 2¢................. I'd increase the charge at least to 110grs VOLUME (77grs WEIGHT) to start, then work my way up to 120grs VOLUME (84grs WEIGHT).

I think you need to bump that bullet harder for better obturation.

 

[WRM]

I was hesitant to suggest increasing charge weight, but I too think you are going to need to bump up your charge to get consistent results. Good luck!

 

[eltaco]

When you seat your bullet, seat it tight with both hands. You don't have to pound it down, just seat the bullet tight.

You could try a veggie wad but, most have found its not necessary.

Cleaning always depends on the rifle. My best accuracy comes from running a DRY PATCH in and out between rounds.

More 2¢................. I'd increase the charge at least to 110grs VOLUME (77grs WEIGHT) to start, then work my way up to 120grs VOLUME (84grs WEIGHT).

I think you need to bump that bullet harder for better obturation.

Thanks for the feedback.

The back of one of my BH209 canisters says DO NOT exceed 100gr (v) for projectiles over 300gr. I don’t see that same warning on their website. You’re suggesting I’m okay going up to 120gr with this weight of bullet?

To be clear, I’m not challenging your experience, just want to be sure we’re on the same page before I go hurt myself or my rifle. I’m shooting 320gr fury universals and star tip 2.