Properly Sealing Blackhorn Charge

[ENCORE]

Thanks for the feedback.

The back of one of my BH209 canisters says DO NOT exceed 100gr (v) for projectiles over 300gr. I don’t see that same warning on their website. You’re suggesting I’m okay going up to 120gr with this weight of bullet?

To be clear, I’m not challenging your experience, just want to be sure we’re on the same page before I go hurt myself or my rifle. I’m shooting 320gr fury universals and star tip 2.

This is me only........... I would not have an issue shooting the 320gr Fury at 120grs volume. However I'd start at 100grs volume. IIRC Dennis created that bullet originally for the Ultimate rifles, where they are shooting much heavier charges. The bullet needs to bump into the grooves more IMO.
The guys with RUM and UF rifles just love that Fury Universal.

I always recommend that others always be cautious with their charges and rifles.

 

[MuleyFever]

Try the 300gn Thors and start at 100gn by volume. I think you are using too light of a load with the Furys and not getting obturation as mentioned above. I was throwing bullets sideways in my new 45cal the other weekend and a wool wad fixed it for some reason. I never swab my barrel using BH209.

 

[WRM]

This is not specific advice on that question, as I understand your concern. But, they have to be uber conservative and you are talking 20 grains over in bullet weight. If you have a modern gun in good condition it SHOULD not be an issue.

Note their last reco. Yet, I shoot it in my TC Renegade .50 cal (40ish year old sidelock) all the time with a conversion nipple. A saboted .44 cal cast lead bullet is a good popper load in it.

 

[ENCORE]

Rule of thumb shooting bullet to bore with BH209

Unless you're shooting a bullet such as the Fury Universal, Thor, or even a powerbelt, ALWAYS use a wad.

 

[eltaco]

Thanks guys. I confirmed with Knight as well, and their suggestion was also to try between 110-120gr by volume BH209 with this 320gr bullet. I’m pouring out my charges now and should get some good range time in today.

My biggest problem now is I’m down to only 8 Fury Universal and my Star Tip 2 don’t fit the fouled barrel. I have one pack of Thors, so that’s probably what I’ll try next. Hopefully I gain enough confidence in the load to know what to order next.

It’s amazing what one can learn on a week vacation back to the family farm!

 

[ENCORE]

Thanks guys. I confirmed with Knight as well, and their suggestion was also to try between 110-120gr by volume BH209 with this 320gr bullet. I’m pouring out my charges now and should get some good range time in today.

My biggest problem now is I’m down to only 8 Fury Universal and my Star Tip 2 don’t fit the fouled barrel. I have one pack of Thors, so that’s probably what I’ll try next. Hopefully I gain enough confidence in the load to know what to order next.

It’s amazing what one can learn on a week vacation back to the family farm!

Good luck. I think with a little heavier charge things should improve.

I'm planning on a session tomorrow myself if the weather allows. I'm doing some extensive testing of bullet to bore loading forces using BH209. The testing is to determine if bullet loading force has any affect on accuracy and velocity. I use precision force gauges to test forces. I'm testing both thin jacketed bullets and heavier jacketed bullets. Should be a fun day if it works out with the weather.

 

[eltaco]

Good luck. I think with a little heavier charge things should improve.

I'm planning on a session tomorrow myself if the weather allows. I'm doing some extensive testing of bullet to bore loading forces using BH209. The testing is to determine if bullet loading force has any affect on accuracy and velocity. I use precision force gauges to test forces. I'm testing both thin jacketed bullets and heavier jacketed bullets. Should be a fun day if it works out with the weather.

I’m sure I speak for all of us when I say this: I’d be very interested in your testing results. Packing pressure is one variable I can’t measure accurately right now and don’t have a great technique for… so that information would definitely speed my learning.

I invested in spinjags for my ramrod, both for ramming and cleaning and I’m not yet convinced they actually spin down the bore. I can push a bullet in and back out end I don’t see rifling marks. Looks like it just squeezes the bullet down the bore, which indicates to me it’s not spinning.

 

[MuleyFever]

Good luck. I think with a little heavier charge things should improve.

I'm planning on a session tomorrow myself if the weather allows. I'm doing some extensive testing of bullet to bore loading forces using BH209. The testing is to determine if bullet loading force has any affect on accuracy and velocity. I use precision force gauges to test forces. I'm testing both thin jacketed bullets and heavier jacketed bullets. Should be a fun day if it works out with the weather.

A friend and I were just talking about this process. He said he read about a test someone did, I dont remember the name, but his results were that loading force had no measurable impact on accuracy. Ill be interested in what you find.

 

[MuleyFever]

Rule of thumb shooting bullet to bore with BH209

Unless you're shooting a bullet such as the Fury Universal, Thor, or even a powerbelt, ALWAYS use a wad.

The 2 guys I shoot with are both shooting 45cal Pittman bullets with no wad. After testing both ways they both got better accuracy and more speed with no wad. Two weeks ago I saw one of them shoot a 1" group at 300 yards using BH209 and a 300gn Aeromax.

That is why I tried with no wad but my bullets just tumbled. Put a wad in and shot great.

 

[ENCORE]

I’m sure I speak for all of us when I say this: I’d be very interested in your testing results. Packing pressure is one variable I can’t measure accurately right now and don’t have a great technique for… so that information would definitely speed my learning.

I invested in spinjags for my ramrod, both for ramming and cleaning and I’m not yet convinced they actually spin down the bore. I can push a bullet in and back out end I don’t see rifling marks. Looks like it just squeezes the bullet down the bore, which indicates to me it’s not spinning.

WE................ have already tested with rifles designed and capable of SML.
The results verify that with SML, loading force has no affect on long range accuracy or velocities. Pressure obturates bullets instantly and fully into the grooves.

Now with BH it may be the complete opposite. If I can shoot tomorrow, I'll have the results and will post them.

I have a large piece of cardboard with 6 targets taped to it. The top 3 targets in a row will be for testing thinner jacketed bullets, actually .015". The bottom row will be for testing .021" jackets. Both bullets being tested are 300grs. The Pittman 300gr Acumax and the 300gr Arrowhead XLD.

NOTE........... IT IS NOT A TEST BETWEEN BULLETS.

For both rows, the left target bullet loading force will be 8#. For the center targets the loading force will be 13#. For the right target the loading force will be 18#.

LOADING FORCE IS MEASURED IN A CLEAN BORE.

 

[CBECK61]

May be late to the game here but I had good luck with the new ELR powerbelt in CO last year. I hated on powerbelts for years but picked up a leftover tag last year in CO and didn't have the time to put into a gun. I actually got sub MOA groups with that bullet at 100 yards w/ a scope. I figured the open sights would have a bigger impact on my accuracy than the powerbelt.

My hunting partner killed a very nice buck at 150 and the bullet held up well and ended up next to the skin on the opposite shoulder.

Seems like this bullet was pretty low lift and shot better than I could w/ open sights at the ranges most people hunt w/ a muzzy in CO.

 

[ENCORE]

A friend and I were just talking about this process. He said he read about a test someone did, I dont remember the name, but his results were that loading force had no measurable impact on accuracy. Ill be interested in what you find.

Only two people have completed the testing. Myself and Richard on Hanks.

You are correct but............ those results are ONLY for shooting SML.

 

[tdhanses]

Well, I got to shooting this week and have learned a lot in a short time. A couple of early findings:

- First shot with a clean barrel is no good. Could be 2’ low at 100yds. Second shot right on target. Guess I need to learn how to pre-foul my barrel now.
- 0.501” is a perfect fit with a clean barrel. 0.501” does not fit with a fouled barrel.
- It is actually feasible to shoot a bullet sideways. I had one hit the target at 100yds with a perfect side profile.

So I’m having some interesting results. Doing load development with an 18x scope and I have found loads that will hold 1-1.5”. However, I have an occasional bullet completely miss the target, and I have no explanation as to why right now. Actually yesterday I had 3 in one session, so that wasn’t very confidence inspiring.

Yesterday I shot 80gr (v) and 85g (v) BH209 with Federal 209A primers. Fury 320gr Universal fits with no base wad. That bullet either hits dead middle for me or completely misses. I’ll be working to figure out why.

Fury full bore conicals seem very consistent with a base wad and BH209, but I ran out of 0.5005” and my 0.501” are scary tight with a fouled barrel. I managed to get one jammed in, and that was my sideways impact at 100yds. Probably won’t shoot more of those.

So a few questions as I try figure out what’s going on.
- How critical is packing pressure? I’m confident each round was seated, but I don’t have a packing technique.
- Should I try a veggie wad with the Fury Universals?
- Any recommendation for cleaning between shots? I’ve not been cleaning after every shot these past two days.
- Any other words of wisdom would be appreciated!

I also fire off two primers with nothing in the barrel before I start shooting on a clean barrel, seems to help.

If you have a bullet going through sideways it is tumbling and will not work for you, take that one off your list it’s no good.

I would not use a wad with the fury universals. When packing try to develop a consistent method of pressure, don’t have to hammer on it.

I also wouldn’t shoot a load less the 90gr volume of bh209 unless shooting lead conicals. I shoot 105gr volume with great consistency.

 

[tdhanses]

Rule of thumb shooting bullet to bore with BH209

Unless you're shooting a bullet such as the Fury Universal, Thor, or even a powerbelt, ALWAYS use a wad.

I’d add the Federal Bor Lock to that list of not needing a wad.

 

[eltaco]

Thanks for all of your input, guys.

Shot 9 rounds of Fury Universal Fits today between 110-120gr and all shot really well. Shot groups that were touching at 100yds with 115gr and 120gr. 115gr at 200yds shot just under a 2” group at about 11” low. Had a pretty good wind today, so not sure how much affect that had, but they were definitely drifting left a couple of in head at 200yds.

I did bare patch between each shot today.

I did start out with a clean bore, fired a primer into the barrel and shot 100gr with a fury Star Tip 2. That bullet entered the target sideways. I’ll have to figure out what’s going on with that, but otherwise everything went really well.

 

[WRM]

Why does there always have to be that weird one with a muzzlelaoder? They seem to never want you to leave the range satisfied. Sounds like progress tho.

 

[eltaco]

Got a chance to shoot some Thor’s through today. I’ll want to shoot more to be certain, but seems they’ll shoot very well out of my Knight as well. I was holding around 1” group at 100yds with them, where I had bullets touching with the Fury Universals. Maybe those Thors will tighten up when I get a chance to try various powder charges.

I will say this, the Thors are much nicer to load. The Base wad on the Fury Universal is a pain to get started. Once it starts, the rest of the push is really nice. The Thors start easy and push down the bore nicely as well.

This brings me back to my first major question. Considering I can’t shoot a base wad with the Thor bullet, and the Fury Universal has a base wad… is it more risky to hunt in poor weather conditions without the wad using BH209?

How do you seal the muzzle against water ingress? And, how long are you comfortable hunting before shooting and reloading? I’ll be on a 9-day backcountry hunt this Fall.

 

[MuleyFever]

My Knight loves the Thors with 100-120gn volume. I leave mine loaded all season. Put some electrical tape over the muzzle or get some rifle condoms.

Amazon.com : Rifle Condom Style Muzzle Cover, Rubber Muzzle Cap, Pack of 20 (Black) : Sports & Outdoors

Amazon.com : Rifle Condom Style Muzzle Cover, Rubber Muzzle Cap, Pack of 20 (Black) : Sports & Outdoors

www.amazon.com

 

[Berger024]

I definitely ran into issues when shooting BH209 and Thor's through my Knight Ultralite. I had many of those Thor's plunk out of my barrel at 15 yds with the velocity of a spitball...I used the Thor's for CO MZ Elk. At least I have information and confirmation on the issue. I always thought it was a sealing issue. Thanks for the info guys!

 

[eltaco]

I definitely ran into issues when shooting BH209 and Thor's through my Knight Ultralite. I had many of those Thor's plunk out of my barrel at 15 yds with the velocity of a spitball...I used the Thor's for CO MZ Elk. At least I have information and confirmation on the issue. I always thought it was a sealing issue. Thanks for the info guys!

So is your conclusion that you didn’t tape the end of the barrel, or the thought that you didn’t have a wad between the powder and bullet?

That’s a terrible feeling… sorry to hear you encountered the misfires.