Project 2025 and public lands and environment

[CJ19]

@Ozarkansas asked 3 poignant questions. You responded with, what was clearly a deflection -a question about IRS audits. Maybe you responded to the wrong post? If so, my apologies.

I am curious to read various replies to his 3 questions, however.

i dont know how to answer all that. There are a lot posts in this thread and I don't think anyone wants to wade back through them all, but I kind of laid out where I am somewhere back there. I do not want to see public land transferred or sold if possible. however, that is no longer the top priotity in my life bc there are many issues I consider of greater importance. I will contact my reps to speak out against it or join some groups I feel appropriate to push back against federal land transfer.

I think we need cuts broadly, but I am in no way joyful when staff especially conservation related staff are cut. I have been through this process and it sucks. There is plenty of good that can come from it though. Almost all the colleagues i saw get cut when I went through this are in much better places professional now than before. Coincidence or circumstance? perhaps. I hope those staff that got cut from FS land softly.

As far as musk and trump and would feel this way if it was the other side. The other side lost me on 9/10 issues in about 2014. i used to be pretty balanced in my voting like 60/40 prior. I think most of what people in this thread are saying boils down to straight party line politics (or like/not like trump) and how they feel about issues broadly, not just conservation.

 

[JohnJohnson]

14 pages and no solutions? DOGE would not appreciate the efficiency of this thread.

They're too busy figuring out how their .gov website got hacked in 3 days. Glad those hotshots have had read/write access to our treasury data.

 

[Jason Snyder]

This is worth a look.

Executive Branch Civilian Employment Since 1940

Welcome to opm.gov

www.opm.gov

GovInfo

Official Publications from the U.S. Government Publishing Office.

www.govinfo.gov

 

[chanson_roland]

In an attempt to get this thread back on track, I thought I'd post this article from the WSJ (opinion, not editorial column) published yesterday.

(I'm gifting the link, so Rokslide peeps, don't say I never gave y'all nothing...)

Let's Get Businesslike with Federal Lands

Here's a very specific recommendation made in this article:

• Turn ownership of some federal lands over to the states. Federal lands cover nearly 50% of Western states such as Alaska, Nevada and California. The states also own large amounts of land—in Montana it’s 26% of the state, in Arizona 12% and Utah 7%—which generate significant revenue. Montana Gov. Greg Gianforte said in 2024 that thanks to “responsible management of state lands,” $92 million from Montana trust lands revenue would go to public schools.

[...Long before Mr. Musk might consider privatizing America’s natural wonders such as Yosemite and the Grand Canyon, there are huge gains to be made from better management of federal land.]

The author is at the Hoover Institute, which has very clearly come down on the side of transferring/privatizing public land in the past:

https://www.hoover.org/research/wasted-potential-federal-lands

https://www.hoover.org/research/federal-lands-opportunity-costs-and-administrate-state

https://www.hoover.org/research/our-languishing-public-lands

https://www.perc.org/wp-content/uploads/old/pa1.pdf

Also of a similar mind is the Cato Institute:

https://www.cato.org/policy-analysis/how-why-privatize-federal-lands

As well as The Heritage Foundation:

https://www.heritage.org/environment/commentary/should-federal-lands-be-opened-private-development

Note: Heritage, Cato, and Hoover were all contributors to Project 2025

Last, here is the Department of the Interior excerpt from Project 2025:

https://static.project2025.org/2025_MandateForLeadership_CHAPTER-16.pdf

My personal opinion is that putting all other politics aside, there is a pent-up desire by several of the key policy contributors of Project 2025 to privatize public land. Given the near lock-step implementation of other Project 2025 proposals that we've seen in the last few weeks, I don't see why the Administration will not implement these recommendations.

Jason Chaffetz' bill HR621 in the 115th Congress of 2017 was a clear warning shot.

Maybe there's some sort of firewall that will be put in place, but given the preponderance of policy recommendations made over the last 20 years by the same people who wrote Project 2025, I'm going to take them at their word.

If I'm wrong, I'm more than happy to be so. Got plenty of hot sauces to make that crow taste like fine dining.

If I'm right, some of you can check in with me in a few years and I can give you pointers on how to bowhunt in subdivisions, 'cause that's the skillset you're going to need to develop.

 

[S.Clancy]

Here's a fun fact too. My buddy works for Dept of Energy, electrical engineer, directly responsible for portions of The Grid.

Several electrical engineers in his group (MT, ND, SD) got fired, along with electricians, lineman, etc. A few hrs later an email went out that they mistakenly fired some. Because of the security clearances, they were rehired and placed on Admin Leave indefinitely until the clearances are regained.

Happy Saturday

 

[elkhunter505]

Last, here is the Department of the Interior excerpt from Project 2025:

https://static.project2025.org/2025_MandateForLeadership_CHAPTER-16.pdf

in this, it talks about removing the biological resources division of the USGS and making all research go through competitive proposals at universities. So please go do your research on the Cooperative Fish and Wildlife Research Units who are USGS employees stationed at universities that do these competitive proposals. The people that wrote this obviously have no idea how the USGS system works and where that research is coming from. If you have seen research come out on your ungulate and carnivore species from universities, I guarantee 50% or more of that research is being done under people in the CWRUs. Go look at the migration mapping, bighorn sheep research, and other things being pumped out in Wyoming. Go look at the map of ungulate migrations books that the USGS puts out. Those are being done by graduate students and other research associates placed at universities across the country that are being advised by Unit Leaders and Assistant Unit Leaders at the CWRUs. This document clearly shows that the people writing this have no idea how these systems work.

 

[chanson_roland]

Here's a fun fact too. My buddy works for Dept of Energy, electrical engineer, directly responsible for portions of The Grid.

Several electrical engineers in his group (MT, ND, SD) got fired, along with electricians, lineman, etc. A few hrs later an email went out that they mistakenly fired some. Because of the security clearances, they were rehired and placed on Admin Leave indefinitely until the clearances are regained.

Happy Saturday

Don't even let me get started on the madness at DOE. They also fired physicists, mathematicians, and engineers who not only manage the nuclear stockpile, but are in active weapons development programs.

When you tell someone who knows how to make H-bombs to "go get a job in the private sector", you might want to be a bit thoughtful about the outcomes...

 

[Coldtrail]

Regardless of the side of the isle, it's a little spooky to me that we have two urban guys one being elderly, both non hunting, white collar, both highly essentric, silver spoon individuals who have made a ton of money off the US govt over many years now deciding what is govt "waste" with no checks and balances? Seems odd to me and I question it. More odd is other seemingly intelligent elected officials and working class people are willing to so easily fall in line to follow their lead and downright fear being overheard saying anything in disagreement....let that sink in a bit.

I think when it comes to sportsman issues that people tend to give much more credit than deserved to one side of the isle to be looking out for us, neither has done much favorable and things swing back and forth quite regularly. If one could sell a bunch of federal lands into private holdings tomorrow without consequence they would....and the way things are going they just might and you will read it in a news story, no votes, no congress, nothing. The firing of certain employees in those managing agencies eliminates one layer of scientific, historical, or educated opinion as to the value of keeping those lands protected, much like hunting bills getting introduced and govt biologists being ordered to not have a professional opinion. Eliminate the position and the opinion becomes whatever you as a politician want it to be, this is not a new tactic. Is the sky falling? Not sure yet but I think at the very least that if you hunt/fish/whatever using public lands that the check engine light is flashing and I agree that we should at least pay attention. What that looks like I'm not sure? But reading the differing opinions on this thread tells me that "if" the sky falls we will all be bickering too much to see it & certainly slow to act on it, and to ring up your elected officials no longer works because most, if not all will refuse to stand up in opposition because of whatever hold makes them scared to question their guy. I'm not sure where that leaves your average voter on such issues?

I might add that as far as govt goes, waste vs value is in the eye of the beholder, don't believe for one second that this isn't just a reallocation of funds to be "wasted" on something of higher priority to this particular administration....the average citizen isn't going to see it in their wallet.

 

[S.Clancy]

I also love that federal workers are the scapegoats for "federal waste" when it is those corrupt reptiles (both sides) in Washington DC that pass all the bills etc that force what federal workers do on a daily basis, regardless of Agency. And yet, no one in Washington DC has to divest, can trade stocks on companies they literally vote legislation on, etc.

 

[Gila]

If the Administration was really interested in dumping out the pork barrel they wouldn’t fire the IGs that have “hooks” into their respective agencies and were the only watch dogs against FWA. However there were IGs that were loyal to their Secretaries to a fault. I don’t think anyone on this thread has deviated from the issue of how conservation of the resources is being affected DOGE. And just what are the checks and balances for DOGE? Congress is just watching the news, eating popcorn and waiting for their turn to kiss the ring!

 

[elkhunter505]

Well thank you all for getting me fired up enough to contact my representatives and senators in advance of this. This is only the third time I have ever contacted my reps, but I appreciate people on both sides of this argument getting me inspired enough to write those emails while sicker than a dog. I really hope we are ready to fight this, if it were to come to fruition.

 

[Loo.wii]

So, what you're effectively saying is, "don't worry about anything until its a problem. Nevermind the accidental firing of DOE employees critical to managing the nation's nuclear arsenals. Nevermind that DOGE has posted classified documents on its on website (where it also promotes Elon's self interest for his company X). Elon has got this, ya'll -he's a an unelected, non-senate confirmed, half foreign national billionaire who lacks security clearance and has a fleet of 19-21 year olds investigating government fraud. He must know what he's doing, he's friends with Trump, runs some big companies, clearly has the nation's best interest in mind when making recommendations and what is good for his own self interest must also be good for Americans. and, if I'm wrong, what's the worst thing that can happen?"

Dude, I’m convinced some of the people here never leave their intellectual hovels and just stew in their John Dutton fantasies.

 

[Loo.wii]

They're too busy figuring out how their .gov website got hacked in 3 days. Glad those hotshots have had read/write access to our treasury data.

As a professional hacker my blood pressure spiked reading the post analysis on the vulnerabilities.

 

[IdahoBeav]

The government spent $6.75 trillion dollars is FY 2024. They collected $4.92 trillion in taxes. In FY 2023 they spent $6.16 trillion and collected $4.40 trillion.

Taxes increase and the deficit grows. Increased taxation is not a solution.

The federal government has a severe spending problem. They need to do anything and everything necessary to trim at least $2 trillion from annual spending. Until this happens, cries about federal program cuts are invalid.

 

[Loo.wii]

The government spent $6.75 trillion dollars is FY 2024. They collected $4.92 trillion in taxes. In FY 2023 they spent $6.16 trillion and collected $4.40 trillion.

Taxes increase and the deficit grows. Increased taxation is not a solution.

The federal government has a severe spending problem. They need to do anything and everything necessary to trim at least $2 trillion from annual spending. Until this happens, cries about federal program cuts are invalid.

Let’s have a good faith discussion about it.

Cutting people’s jobs isn’t going to do what you say needs to be done it’s going to hurt local economies that depend on those jobs and the tax revenue that they generate.

See the following. I’ve also sourced it.

The federal government employs about 2.3 million civilian workers—or 1.4 percent of the U.S. workforce—in jobs that represent over 650 occupations at more than 100 agencies. It competes with private-sector employers for people who possess the mix of attributes needed to do the work of its various agencies.

In fiscal year 2022, the federal government spent roughly $271 billion to compensate those civilian employees. About 60 percent of that total was spent on civilian personnel working in the Department of Defense, the Department of Veterans Affairs, and the Department of Homeland Security.

Comparing the Compensation of Federal and Private-Sector Employees in 2022

At a Glance In this report, the Congressional Budget Office compares the cost that the federal government incurred in 2022 for the wages and benefits of its civilian employees with the cost that private employers incurred for employees who appear similar in their educational attainment and other...

www.cbo.gov

 

[Gila]

The government spent $6.75 trillion dollars is FY 2024. They collected $4.92 trillion in taxes. In FY 2023 they spent $6.16 trillion and collected $4.40 trillion.

Taxes increase and the deficit grows. Increased taxation is not a solution.

The federal government has a severe spending problem. They need to do anything and everything necessary to trim at least $2 trillion from annual spending. Until this happens, cries about federal program cuts are invalid.

It doesn’t work that way….Congress approves the budget for the federal agencies. When Trump REDUCED the Tax rate for big corp and the wealthy, the deficit shot up like a rocket. He intends to make those tax cuts permanent. The government needs to find the money somewhere, so enter the Tariffs which amounts to a sales tax that every citizen must pay, rich or poor. India charges the highest tariffs because most of the population is too poor to pay any income taxes. That is because of their cast system which divides the haves from the have nots.

 

[elkhunter505]

The government spent $6.75 trillion dollars is FY 2024. They collected $4.92 trillion in taxes. In FY 2023 they spent $6.16 trillion and collected $4.40 trillion.

Taxes increase and the deficit grows. Increased taxation is not a solution.

The federal government has a severe spending problem. They need to do anything and everything necessary to trim at least $2 trillion from annual spending. Until this happens, cries about federal program cuts are invalid.

So republicans asking for a $4 trillion dollar increase in the debt ceiling is a solution? And adding $4.5 trillion tax break that the vast majority of us will not see any tax breaks from? I don’t understand why anyone that is a normal middle or lower class person would ever want to keep voting for tax cuts when it’s obviously never ending up helping them and only helps m/billionaires? What is their aversion to paying higher taxes when they have the money? Oh wait it’s because they don’t give a shit about people like us. All they care about is corporate profits which continue to rise while wages do nothing.

 

[ScreamingPotato]

So, what you're effectively saying is, "don't worry about anything until its a problem. Nevermind the accidental firing of DOE employees critical to managing the nation's nuclear arsenals. Nevermind that DOGE has posted classified documents on its on website (where it also promotes Elon's self interest for his company X). Elon has got this, ya'll -he's a an unelected, non-senate confirmed, half foreign national billionaire who lacks security clearance and has a fleet of 19-21 year olds investigating government fraud. He must know what he's doing, he's friends with Trump, runs some big companies, clearly has the nation's best interest in mind when making recommendations and what is good for his own self interest must also be good for Americans. and, if I'm wrong, what's the worst thing that can happen?"

What I'm saying is trillions of my money is being burned by fraud and bloated government. Yes there will be growing pains trying to correct this sinking ship and we'll work through them. Meanwhile y'all argue to just keep spending just in case one position in terms of thousands was actually important. If they're important that position will be back.

 

[elkhunter505]

What I'm saying is trillions of my money is being burned by fraud and bloated government. Yes there will be growing pains trying to correct this sinking ship and we'll work through them. Meanwhile y'all argue to just keep spending just in case one position in terms of thousands was actually important. If they're important that position will be back.

I disagree. None of us want to see our tax dollars being wasted. We are just wanting to see it went about a different way. Where’s the efficiency in mass layoffs only to then have to rehire people and go through that entire process, interviews, applications, and everything because you’re federal and can’t do a non competitive hire. Spending the time and effort into figuring out where it was happening seems like a much more efficient and effective way to go about it. But I think they did it because they had a fancy thing on Doge.gov saying the savings would be available by Valentine’s Day at the latest and now it says “receipts coming over the weekend.” They want to have a big figure to show even if it doesn’t end up being that figure because people need to be rehired.