Project 2025 and public lands and environment

[PLhunter]

Well per my previous post, I have talked to multiple people who work for USFS and FWS and it happened today. All probationary employees are laid off starting tomorrow. So there’s factual information on the ground from people who directly work for those agencies…

Also, either way, I don’t work from home because my productivity suffers, so I do think there are people that can do it and those that can’t. I’m not one of those people that can. But what is the reason for stopping those who can?

Our enforcement staff suffered productivity and had to come back. Consultation staff, productivity went up. So it largely depends. This isn’t a work from home vs office debate. I don’t care too deeply on it but it’s not cut and dry on efficiency.

But the efficiency of paying people to not do their work right now, which is happening, is suspect. Interesting that it’s suspending investigating labor violations as well. Which I don’t see where that falls high on the abuse, waste, and fraud list. What work would they have to suspend if it was fraudulent and wasteful?

 

[ScreamingPotato]

Well per my previous post, I have talked to multiple people who work for USFS and FWS and it happened today. All probationary employees are laid off starting tomorrow. So there’s factual information on the ground from people who directly work for those agencies…

Also, either way, I don’t work from home because my productivity suffers, so I do think there are people that can do it and those that can’t. I’m not one of those people that can. But what is the reason for stopping those who can?

This is what I'm referring to:

https://www.politico.com/news/2025/02/13/forest-services-fires-3400-employees-00204213?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR36tDDuEUvw3McoPgrUr-U3-9Qdk6qcSwRHiyqpV0Tuig-jadYbymWCZAs_aem_1PzgrTA9iy0oYt8iv0XU-w

Here you go. All your trails are not going to be cleared this year. All those seasonal workers that some of us rely on to do surveys and field work, gone. Please, at least just think for yourself rather than falling in line with an entire party. I voted for both republicans and democrats on my ballot this year so I encourage people to at least be a free thinker and realize it’s not an all or nothing system.

I'm betting the work still gets done, which is the point of operating more efficiently. If things don't get done, then reassess.

 

[elkhunter505]

This is what I'm referring to:

I'm betting the work still gets done, which is the point of operating more efficiently. If things don't get done, then reassess.

Yeah, but who is going to do it then? That work falls fully on seasonal employees because full time employees don't have the time to do that. That's the entire reason for the seasonal hires. I know multiple trails in forest service that are not cleared in the years when the FS district does not have funding for seasonals. So who is going to do it? Private contractors? The public out of their own free will? I don't know what you do or where you work, but your argument appears to be founded without logic or knowledge to back it up. Those trail crews and seasonal wildlife technicians are the people that do all of that work and without them, it does not get done unless the biologists and full timers are willing to put in 80 hour work weeks.

 

[elkhunter505]

And if those biologists put in 80 hour work weeks, you're paying them way more than you would pay a seasonal crew due to higher wages and overtime hours. So inherently, you're going to then spend more money to do the same thing, aka less efficient work.
But no one should have to be required to put in 80 hour work weeks anyway when we can employ people to do that as it benefits everyone using the forest land in general.

 

[ScreamingPotato]

Yeah, but who is going to do it then? That work falls fully on seasonal employees because full time employees don't have the time to do that. That's the entire reason for the seasonal hires. I know multiple trails in forest service that are not cleared in the years when the FS district does not have funding for seasonals. So who is going to do it? Private contractors? The public out of their own free will? I don't know what you do or where you work, but your argument appears to be founded without logic or knowledge to back it up. Those trail crews and seasonal wildlife technicians are the people that do all of that work and without them, it does not get done unless the biologists and full timers are willing to put in 80 hour work weeks.

And if those biologists put in 80 hour work weeks, you're paying them way more than you would pay a seasonal crew due to higher wages and overtime hours. So inherently, you're going to then spend more money to do the same thing, aka less efficient work.
But no one should have to be required to put in 80 hour work weeks anyway when we can employ people to do that as it benefits everyone using the forest land in general.

So just speculating here, because that's all anybody is doing in this thread is speculating and freaking out over what-ifs and sky is falling alarmist rhetoric, is you can't "lay off" a seasonal employee because the fact that they're seasonal so they're probably not gonna take a hit at all. 3400 number is very likely other actual full time employees and it's very likely their jobs are redundant and other full timers will need to work an extra 10 minutes on their shifts to cover the load.

 

[PLhunter]

Yeah, but who is going to do it then? That work falls fully on seasonal employees because full time employees don't have the time to do that. That's the entire reason for the seasonal hires. I know multiple trails in forest service that are not cleared in the years when the FS district does not have funding for seasonals. So who is going to do it? Private contractors? The public out of their own free will? I don't know what you do or where you work, but your argument appears to be founded without logic or knowledge to back it up. Those trail crews and seasonal wildlife technicians are the people that do all of that work and without them, it does not get done unless the biologists and full timers are willing to put in 80 hour work weeks.

The wait and see argument logically needs to be saved for things with difficult to predict outcomes. Like a sporting event. You don’t get to fall back on wait and see for things with more obvious and more serious impacts. It’s okay to raise concern prior to wait and see when the evidence points to a probable outcome. It’s bordering on gaslighting. Which is what happened during the first thread. Informed speculation isn’t the same as saying the sky is falling. There is the probable outcome of less workers equals less productivity and coverage. That’s the default and the counter is what needs to be proven.

Also, you’d expect a super genius to more accurately find waste then having to rely on wait and see tactics. Isn’t that the point? Shouldn’t they be able to prove with super advanced algorithms that indeed those positions are redundant? Shouldn’t we at least question it and ask what data they used to mess with peoples lives and to potentially set back maintenance and conservation progress? Some people have wayyyy too much faith in government.

 

[elkhunter505]

So just speculating here, because that's all anybody is doing in this thread is speculating and freaking out over what-ifs and sky is falling alarmist rhetoric, is you can't "lay off" a seasonal employee because the fact that they're seasonal so they're probably not gonna take a hit at all. 3400 number is very likely other actual full time employees and it's very likely their jobs are redundant and other full timers will need to work an extra 10 minutes on their shifts to cover the load.

They were both seasonal and full time employees. And a lot of those seasonal were permanent seasonal who have been doing those jobs for years and years and just are rehired during their term. But this affects full time employees and important ones too. So if an agency hired an employee in the last xxx days, they got laid off. And that’s regardless of whether or not they were filling a biologist position or a janitor position. So even your highest ranking positions start on a probationary period, so it’s possible that your agency just lost their district ranger, lead biologist, research biologist just because they had not reached the end of that period. So now it’s possible those districts have lost people that were critical to keep functions going and have no way to replace them and therefore that work is going to be deprioritized or skipped entirely. Think about that, that could be surveys for deer or whatever big game animal you want to hunt because they’re more obligated to survey endangered snail species. I mean I love snails so it ain’t hurting my feelings but I’m sure a lot of people here would rather see deer surveyed than snails.

 

[Gila]

Managing a project without the staff required to meet milestones and deadlines is the same as defunding the project. Different method to kill a project with the same result.

 

[ScreamingPotato]

They were both seasonal and full time employees. And a lot of those seasonal were permanent seasonal who have been doing those jobs for years and years and just are rehired during their term. But this affects full time employees and important ones too. So if an agency hired an employee in the last xxx days, they got laid off. And that’s regardless of whether or not they were filling a biologist position or a janitor position. So even your highest ranking positions start on a probationary period, so it’s possible that your agency just lost their district ranger, lead biologist, research biologist just because they had not reached the end of that period. So now it’s possible those districts have lost people that were critical to keep functions going and have no way to replace them and therefore that work is going to be deprioritized or skipped entirely. Think about that, that could be surveys for deer or whatever big game animal you want to hunt because they’re more obligated to survey endangered snail species. I mean I love snails so it ain’t hurting my feelings but I’m sure a lot of people here would rather see deer surveyed than snails.

Everything you said relies on "it's possible" as you said several times. This is how we end up with government bloat, oh well I guess we'd better just keep paying people just in case they're needed. It's also possible they're not needed and everything will get done anyway.

But this is the consequences of wildly irresponsible spending and fraud over the last 4 years, yes some things will sting a little bit as we try to rebalance, but it will come back around. If a federal wildlife survey doesn't get done then we'll hire someone to cover it. The globe will not stop spinning because we don't know how many Mallards are nesting this year or because some trail in a park doesn't have the deadfall cleared.

 

[ScreamingPotato]

Managing a project without the staff required to meet milestones and deadlines is the same as defunding the project. Different method to kill a project with the same result.

Managing a project with twice as much staff as it needs ticks off taxpayers.

 

[Ozarkansas]

It’s not a stretch to guess fewer seasonal workers + firing workers in the probationary period is going to result in less trail clearing, logging, and burns on public land. I’ll be happy to be proven wrong but I don’t see how we’re going to have better managed public lands with a way smaller staff. You’re right though,We’ll find out soon- I track prescribed burns in my state as part of my routine scouting and its burn season. If they don’t start putting fire on the ground before spring, we’ll know why

 

[Gila]

Yes they are all over the place. Forest Service lost 3,400 employees today. That reduction of the workforce is a huge degradation of capability.

 

[ScreamingPotato]

Yes they are all over the place. Forest Service lost 3,400 employees today. That reduction of the workforce is a huge degradation in capability.

...or was a huge waste of overstaffing. Just because there's a layoff doesn't mean they're understaffed. Kinda the point to all this. I've been laid off twice once with a 40% reduction in a large company and they kept on rolling without the bloat. I didn't like it obviously.

 

[elkhunter505]

Managing a project with twice as much staff as it needs ticks off taxpayers.

Yeah and giving tax cuts to billionaires while laying off other people to justify it and not doing anything for the lower class pisses this tax payer off. So let's increase the debt ceiling $4 trillion dollars and then provide billionaires $4.5 trillion in tax cuts because boy oh boy do they need it. So how exactly are we cutting government spending if we are increasing the debt ceiling by $4 trillion?

Republicans reveal Trump tax plan will cost US $4.5 trillion

The GOP also seeks an increase in the debt limit by $4 trillion, the budget resolution says.

www.newsweek.com

And everyone really likes to go about saying how bad the last 4 years was, but Trump added more to the national debt than Biden did, so how are we cutting spending if he didn't do it the first time and actually did it worse than his successor?

Trump and Biden: The National Debt | Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget

The national debt is on course to reach a record share of the economy under the next presidential administration, due in part to policies approved by Presidents Trump and Biden during their ti

www.crfb.org

 

[ScreamingPotato]

Yeah and giving tax cuts to billionaires while laying off other people to justify it and not doing anything for the lower class pisses this tax payer off. So let's increase the debt ceiling $4 trillion dollars and then provide billionaires $4.5 trillion in tax cuts because boy oh boy do they need it. So how exactly are we cutting government spending if we are increasing the debt ceiling by $4 trillion?

Republicans reveal Trump tax plan will cost US $4.5 trillion

The GOP also seeks an increase in the debt limit by $4 trillion, the budget resolution says.

www.newsweek.com

And everyone really likes to go about saying how bad the last 4 years was, but Trump added more to the national debt than Biden did, so how are we cutting spending if he didn't do it the first time and actually did it worse than his successor?

Trump and Biden: The National Debt | Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget

The national debt is on course to reach a record share of the economy under the next presidential administration, due in part to policies approved by Presidents Trump and Biden during their ti

www.crfb.org

I see your TDS is flaring up so you can't help but deflect. He'll have us booming in a couple years, you're welcome.

 

[Jason Snyder]

Yes, we see cuts to agencies where the union and people like Buzz Hettick make it impossible to let people go on merit based or other rational criteria.

This gets tossed out a lot. Every firing I’ve seen reversed by union litigation was a direct result of a supervisor(s) not following policy and/or labor law.

 

[elkhunter505]

Either way, I have partially derailed this thread by going into other things other than the topic. I'm here to fight for public lands and conservation and I know where I stand at this point. I am just hoping others are willing to stand in the same court to keep public lands public and make sure our wildlife are getting the management that they deserve.

 

[PLhunter]

Managing a project with twice as much staff as it needs ticks off taxpayers.

Where is the evidence of that in the cuts? That’s what I’m wanting to see. It was supposed to be super geniuses using advanced methods to find waste, fraud, and abuse. Instead it seems ham fisted and arbitrary. I don’t share the faith in Elon doing this for our betterment, nor being correct in his waste fraud and abuse assessments. He’s already had some swings and misses.

 

[ScreamingPotato]

Either way, I have partially derailed this thread by going into other things other than the topic. I'm here to fight for public lands and conservation and I know where I stand at this point. I am just hoping others are willing to stand in the same court to keep public lands public and make sure our wildlife are getting the management that they deserve.

I'm right there with you and that's what most of us want. I think this thread would have got a lot more traction without the Project 2025 conspiracy title and desperately attempting to make ties into things that aren't there. Write your congressman, keep public lands public and while we're at it make corner crossing legal lol.

 

[elkhunter505]

make corner crossing legal lol.

Now there is something I can get behind!