Point Creep - is there any light at the end of the tunnel?

[Fatcamp]

Either do points or straight lottery instead of both.

Do away with Random

No.

 

[rodney482]

No.

Greedy Wy needing to draw max $$$$ .. the random is complete BS when you have point creep.

 

[Chad E]

Greedy Wy needing to draw max $$$$ .. the random is complete BS when you have point creep.

I whole heartedly disagree with this idea as the hybrid systems give the best of both worlds. I'd gladly go straight lottery but I like wyomings system because you can plan a hunt in the future while also hoping for a random tag to shorten the wait. A system with no portion that is random really puts the screws to new comers and kids.

 

[rodney482]

I whole heartedly disagree with this idea as the hybrid systems give the best of both worlds. I'd gladly go straight lottery but I like wyomings system because you can plan a hunt in the future while also hoping for a random tag to shorten the wait. A system with no portion that is random really puts the screws to new comers and kids.

I think its total horse crap when 3 points wont even draw a general. Then guys with no skin in the game draw on random

 

[Fatcamp]

Greedy Wy needing to draw max $$$$ .. the random is complete BS when you have point creep.

It's all I got, bro.

 

[Fatcamp]

I think its total horse crap when 3 points wont even draw a general. Then guys with no skin in the game draw on random

LoL. That attitude is what got us cubed points in South Dakota. Oh, well.

 

[cal30_sniper]

Just wait until states start doing away with the PP system and people that have been playing it for years lose their points.

I think the chances of this happening are essentially nill.

It's such an easy situation to avoid. If you want to phase out preference points immediately, it's as simple as freezing the system. Establish a window in which currently accumulated preference points can be used, after which they expire (or even an indefinite window). Stop awarding additional preference points, and send all remaining tags after that years preference points have been cashed out to random draw. Some pain up front for some individuals, and then it's over.

Then, of course, assuming this happened, you'll immediately have people complaining about insanely long draw odds for the same hunts that used to take years to draw. There's no free lunch in that regard. And, as others have said, the states currently make way too much money off of license sales for the draw systems to do away with points.

Now, if one wanted to simply eliminate Preference Point CREEP, why not raise the bar for entry? Requiring someone to actually pay the cost of a license to accumulate the point would be one method. For many guys that are currently buying licenses for OTC or 2nd choice draw hunts while also accumulating points, the point itself is either on the order of free-$20. Stop awarding preference points for guys that drew 2nd-4th choice hunts solves some of that issue (Colorado system). For guys who are just building points (either buying points, or submitted applications for hunts that they dont draw due to lack of preference points), make them pay the full cost of the tag to accumulate the point. If they don't want to buy the point, then there could be the option of refunding their tag cost if they don't draw, while simultaneously forfeiting the point.

Creep is simply an issue of supply and demand. We aren't ever going to increase supply (habitat loss being the limiting factor). Demand isn't going down. The only way to control it is increasing the cost of entry.

what would help the most is if we could recover species to the abundance they once were...elk and bison across most of the lower 48. 40 million pronghorn at the start of the 19th century vs maybe 1 million now. course that's just dreaming

But muh cows... People can complain about predators all they want, and I'm sure many have valid arguments (though most of those talking points were generated by stockmen for the benefit of stockmen). The fact is, prior to the advent of modern agriculture, industrialization, urban sprawl, the highway system, etc in North America, game and predators were both present in numbers far above anything we can imagine today. Obviously those are things we can't turn back the clock on, but we still decimate game numbers in the name of agriculture and grazing at every opportunity.

The fact is, we've taken most of the prime game habitat for private land use agriculture. That's great, and what our country is built on. Unfortunately, the lands that have been set aside for the public use have also become so much more ground for private agriculture. I've yet to spend time in a non-wilderness National Forest area in CO or NM that wasn't severely scarred by cattle/sheep/goat grazing. I did a 16 mile hike this weekend in a remote area of Cibola National Forest (no established roads or trails in the entire watershed I was hiking). Both marked springs that I came across had been utterly ravaged by cattle. Stomped into oblivion, crapped all over, and badly overgrazed in the immediate vicinity. It was a pinch-your-nose situation to fill a life straw from what tiny trickle of running water remained. Despite crossing fresh bear sign twice, I was still running into cattle on the order of every 1-1.5 miles I walked. This has been the norm in my experience with BLM/NF land in the desert southwest states.

We complain about predators and debate carrying capacity of the land, but from a resource standpoint, every head of cattle is at least one less wild ungulate the land can support (the equation may be different in more moist climates, but I'd wager this holds true for water-limited states like SW CO, NM, AZ, and UT). There are tens of thousands of head of cattle grazing on your public land for a pittance. How many deer/elk tags does that result in not being in people's pockets? Was that perhaps your elk tag taking a dump in my water hole?

 

[wind gypsy]

I think its total horse crap when 3 points wont even draw a general. Then guys with no skin in the game draw on random

I disagree. It gives you a chance to have a tag before you have 3 points and is also is about the only chance I have of ever hunting a decent LE unit in WY.

 

[Maverick1]

 

[Marble]

I've been hunting in CO and ID for the last 20 years and have got my OTC tag each year. I'm not killing 180" bucks and 330 bulls each year, but I get my chance, and have killed animals that size, all in the OTC units. Only 2 years I didn't fill my tag,and that was because of greed and stupidity.

You can have successful, memory filled hunts chasing big animals every year. You don't have to wait years to draw a
Unicorn tag.



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[satchamo]

I've been hunting in CO and ID for the last 20 years and have got my OTC tag each year. I'm not killing 180" bucks and 330 bulls each year, but I get my chance, and have killed animals that size, all in the OTC units. Only 2 years I didn't fill my tag,and that was because of greed and stupidity.

You can have successful, memory filled hunts chasing big animals every year. You don't have to wait years to draw a
Unicorn tag.



Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk

I think that was the whole point of me posting this... that even the traditional low point to draw tags are inflating. I’m not even speaking to glory tags. I have 0 interest in them.

I fear we are approaching a time where it could be 6+ points just to pull a general tag in wyoming. I had a great memory filled hunt there last year and now I’m thinking shit... I’m looking at an uphill climb just to get back for a general tag. But I know - this is all first world problems.

 

[Marble]

I think that was the whole point of me posting this... that even the traditional low point to draw tags are inflating. I’m not even speaking to glory tags. I have 0 interest in them.

I fear we are approaching a time where it could be 6+ points just to pull a general tag in wyoming. I had a great memory filled hunt there last year and now I’m thinking shit... I’m looking at an uphill climb just to get back for a general tag. But I know - this is all first world problems.

Totally agree. I've seen plenty of guys hold out for their glory tag and not hunt for years at a time. It's a perishable skill.

I drew WY this year, a general tag, and we are going in September. I'll keep applying next year and try for Idaho. As long as I can hunt each year I'll be happy. Ideally a few weeks in September and a few in October.

If it got to 6 for a general tag, that would be disappointing. I think there would be a substantial drop off in interest.

Heck, if I didn't get drawn, I might just go without a weapon because I love it so much.


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[wapitibob]

I have little sympathy for people that can't be bothered to learn how a states draw system works, do some basic math, then get butt hurt when they don't draw.

 

[ScottR_EHJ]

People keep saying this kind of stuff, but over the last 10 years or so 90%+ of all the hunters I've seen in the backcountry or in camps were all younger than I am, and I'm 55. I rarely see older guys out there.

For NR's there's one thing that you need to realize. I haven't kept track to the specifics but at some point when resident tags go above a certain number of minimum points to draw, then the % of NR tags allotted drops. That will greatly add to the point creep for NR's.

Backcountry hunting in particular has gotten pretty popular.

 

[ndmarine]

I think the chances of this happening are essentially nill.

It's such an easy situation to avoid. If you want to phase out preference points immediately, it's as simple as freezing the system. Establish a window in which currently accumulated preference points can be used, after which they expire (or even an indefinite window). Stop awarding additional preference points, and send all remaining tags after that years preference points have been cashed out to random draw. Some pain up front for some individuals, and then it's over.

Then, of course, assuming this happened, you'll immediately have people complaining about insanely long draw odds for the same hunts that used to take years to draw. There's no free lunch in that regard. And, as others have said, the states currently make way too much money off of license sales for the draw systems to do away with points.

Now, if one wanted to simply eliminate Preference Point CREEP, why not raise the bar for entry? Requiring someone to actually pay the cost of a license to accumulate the point would be one method. For many guys that are currently buying licenses for OTC or 2nd choice draw hunts while also accumulating points, the point itself is either on the order of free-$20. Stop awarding preference points for guys that drew 2nd-4th choice hunts solves some of that issue (Colorado system). For guys who are just building points (either buying points, or submitted applications for hunts that they dont draw due to lack of preference points), make them pay the full cost of the tag to accumulate the point. If they don't want to buy the point, then there could be the option of refunding their tag cost if they don't draw, while simultaneously forfeiting the point.

Creep is simply an issue of supply and demand. We aren't ever going to increase supply (habitat loss being the limiting factor). Demand isn't going down. The only way to control it is increasing the cost of entry.


But muh cows... People can complain about predators all they want, and I'm sure many have valid arguments (though most of those talking points were generated by stockmen for the benefit of stockmen). The fact is, prior to the advent of modern agriculture, industrialization, urban sprawl, the highway system, etc in North America, game and predators were both present in numbers far above anything we can imagine today. Obviously those are things we can't turn back the clock on, but we still decimate game numbers in the name of agriculture and grazing at every opportunity.

The fact is, we've taken most of the prime game habitat for private land use agriculture. That's great, and what our country is built on. Unfortunately, the lands that have been set aside for the public use have also become so much more ground for private agriculture. I've yet to spend time in a non-wilderness National Forest area in CO or NM that wasn't severely scarred by cattle/sheep/goat grazing. I did a 16 mile hike this weekend in a remote area of Cibola National Forest (no established roads or trails in the entire watershed I was hiking). Both marked springs that I came across had been utterly ravaged by cattle. Stomped into oblivion, crapped all over, and badly overgrazed in the immediate vicinity. It was a pinch-your-nose situation to fill a life straw from what tiny trickle of running water remained. Despite crossing fresh bear sign twice, I was still running into cattle on the order of every 1-1.5 miles I walked. This has been the norm in my experience with BLM/NF land in the desert southwest states.

We complain about predators and debate carrying capacity of the land, but from a resource standpoint, every head of cattle is at least one less wild ungulate the land can support (the equation may be different in more moist climates, but I'd wager this holds true for water-limited states like SW CO, NM, AZ, and UT). There are tens of thousands of head of cattle grazing on your public land for a pittance. How many deer/elk tags does that result in not being in people's pockets? Was that perhaps your elk tag taking a dump in my water hole?

This is pure gold. I 100% agree w you - we need to start spreading this word! Everything comes at the expense of something else. The number of cattle on OUR lands is absolutely ridiculous and the #1 factor restricting big game numbers at this time

 

[MTSasquatch]

Look - I know this topic has been beat to death but it real has me losing sleep.

I’m 33, 2 kids with the typical costs of life for people at my age so I’m not dripping cash. That said - I started the points game about 5 years ago with the idea of getting more and different opportunities than just OTC tags. Never with the idea of getting a “glory” tag. Hell I haven’t even shot an elk despite hunting them 7 years....

All I’m hearing is point creep.... I drew a WY gen elk last year with 3 points and I’m already hearing it took 4 this year on average and 3 on the special. I cannot wait to get back there but I’m looking at an uphill climb.

I’ve also been eyeing a unit in CO that I thought I’d be able to draw by 5 points but now it’s up to 7. I’m currently invested in CO, WY, AZ and always apply in NM and Kentucky.

This is just a few anecdotes - and not meant as a whoa is me type post - but more of a general question of where does it stop? I mean is it a matter of the boomer generation aging out of hunting? Is it a total change in state systems to total lottery? Is there no fix? I just get a bit pessimistic as I see more and more states and units slowly creeping out of reach for me. I’m an opportunity hunter - I don’t need a trophy, I just need encounters with animals.

I’m curious what others thoughts are? Will it get worse before it gets better? Will it get better? Will it balance out and hit a new “normal”? All we hear about is hunting getting less and less popular yet drawing tags is getting harder and harder. It just doesn’t add up.

It’ll only stop when each state passes a ballot initiative to repeal laws that put point systems in place and return them to full random, the way it always should have been.

 

[MuleyFever]

This is pure gold. I 100% agree w you - we need to start spreading this word! Everything comes at the expense of something else. The number of cattle on OUR lands is absolutely ridiculous and the #1 factor restricting big game numbers at this time

That lab grown meat revolution cannot come fast enough I guess.

 

[tt_johnsclist]

Problem is that any system - point or random - will still experience creep. Either your points to draw are going up annually or your odds to random draw are going down annually. Either way your chances are slimming yearly which is the creep the OP was referencing. The only solutions, as a few others have suggested, is fewer hunters or more animals. Unfortunately federal and state agencies, as well as NGO’s and the “hunting industry” make their living off selling stuff to hunters, not making more animals. So the incentive is to increase hunter numbers and maximize license sales, not to create more game and game habitat. Hard to believe but true. So, unless we switch to some sort of system that funds state agencies based on habitat conserved and increases in game populations instead of the number of licenses sold we are stuck with creep.

 

[Donjuan]

Look - I know this topic has been beat to death but it real has me losing sleep.

I’m 33, 2 kids with the typical costs of life for people at my age so I’m not dripping cash. That said - I started the points game about 5 years ago with the idea of getting more and different opportunities than just OTC tags. Never with the idea of getting a “glory” tag. Hell I haven’t even shot an elk despite hunting them 7 years....

All I’m hearing is point creep.... I drew a WY gen elk last year with 3 points and I’m already hearing it took 4 this year on average and 3 on the special. I cannot wait to get back there but I’m looking at an uphill climb.

I’ve also been eyeing a unit in CO that I thought I’d be able to draw by 5 points but now it’s up to 7. I’m currently invested in CO, WY, AZ and always apply in NM and Kentucky.

This is just a few anecdotes - and not meant as a whoa is me type post - but more of a general question of where does it stop? I mean is it a matter of the boomer generation aging out of hunting? Is it a total change in state systems to total lottery? Is there no fix? I just get a bit pessimistic as I see more and more states and units slowly creeping out of reach for me. I’m an opportunity hunter - I don’t need a trophy, I just need encounters with animals.

I’m curious what others thoughts are? Will it get worse before it gets better? Will it get better? Will it balance out and hit a new “normal”? All we hear about is hunting getting less and less popular yet drawing tags is getting harder and harder. It just doesn’t add up.

I know 3 guys with 25+ Colorado elk points. 2 are over 70 and smoke.
I don't know if they plan on ever actually going hunting....I kind of hope there's a bunch of point hoarders but I don't know if those stats are ever released

 

[Sled]

That lab grown meat revolution cannot come fast enough I guess.

agreed. i don't want to be the one eating it but i'm fine if you do. it just makes the elk burger taste that much better.