Petition - OTC for Colorado Residents

[Overdrive]

According to the CPW, out-of-state hunters bring in, from all sources, (tags, food, outfitter costs, processing fees, hotels...etc) over $1,500,000,000. Do you really believe they are going to kill that revenue stream?

I'd like to see your source on this, CPW really only tracks license sales. I'm not aware of them tracking food, outfitter costs or hotels etc.

I'd like to see where you came up with this and if there's a source I've missed a long the way. Thanks

 

[Ucsdryder]

According to the CPW, out-of-state hunters bring in, from all sources, (tags, food, outfitter costs, processing fees, hotels...etc) over $1,500,000,000. Do you really believe they are going to kill that revenue stream?

Nope! Not a chance. They love their $$$$!

Nobody wants to get rid of NR. They just want some realistic restrictions on the unlimited tags that are being given out.

 

[justinspicher]

Can you imagine if the rest of the folks who used the national forest were required to pay for some sort of tag to hike, bike, or whatever it is they do, just like hunters. NR recreationists have to pay more, to hike on trophy trails or climb trophy peaks…….

 

[Poser]

Can you imagine if the rest of the folks who used the national forest were required to pay for some sort of tag to hike, bike, or whatever it is they do, just like hunters. NR recreationists have to pay more, to hike on trophy trails or climb trophy peaks…….

I suppose the ORV sticker would fall into this category, though it doesn’t appear they charge NRs more as it’s $25 whether you buy a R or NR sticker. If you applied the same logic as you do for elk tags, an NR ORV sticker would be $250. I wonder to what extent a $250 NR ORV sticker would raise cane with NR off-roaders coming to drive Imogene Pass, Black Bear and the Alpine Loop? Would it cull the number of SxSs? Maybe they should require street legal vehicles to have them on any of the destination roads. They could also charge NR’s street vehicles $250 for the sticker the same as the dirt bikes and SxSs. Thinking about it from the way hunters experience the allocation and permit process, I surprised this isn’t a thing.

 

[Bubblehide]

Can you imagine if the rest of the folks who used the national forest were required to pay for some sort of tag to hike, bike, or whatever it is they do, just like hunters. NR recreationists have to pay more, to hike on trophy trails or climb trophy peaks…….

The Pitman-Robersson and Dingell-Johnson acts could always be expanded to cover other outdoor activities.

 

[Mykolaivka887]

The Pitman-Robersson and Dingell-Johnson acts could always be expanded to cover other outdoor activities.

Do we really want to give non-consumptive users a louder say in the conservation management of wildlife species? I think not. It's bad enough as it is with the other outdoor user-groups. Court dockets and electoral packages are already brimming over with challenges by those users.

 

[Archer86]

According to the CPW, out-of-state hunters bring in, from all sources, (tags, food, outfitter costs, processing fees, hotels...etc) over $1,500,000,000. Do you really believe they are going to kill that revenue stream?

It's easy cut the tags in half and double the price of the tags they will sell even faster.

As a nr hunter in any state I have never used a outfitter. I buy all my food in my home state before I leave. I have never used a hotel or a processor for meat. So the most I ever do is buy fuel and maybe a few snacks at the fuel stop. Maybe I am the exception.

 

[RancherJohn]

Resident hunters: We want to figure out a way to prioritize our experience in the state we live in with the animals that our state regulates/owns, like most every other state.

Non-resident hunters: You can't keep the lights on without us, your state coffers will run dry, you're too cheap to pay for tags like we do, we won't donate to conservation organizations for the species we claim to love, if you wanted more elk to hunt you shouldn't have reintroduced wolves, you should reintroduce wolves & grizz to scare the libs, if OTC goes away xxxxxx relative can't hunt anymore...

Why would CO residents (or residents of any western state) want such fickle 'allies'? The idea that mountain towns/western states are beholden to hunters is asinine; and shows a shocking level of ignorance in light of how much skiers/bikers/hikers/tourists spend every day. Yes, tourism dollars drive a lot of CO's economy, and dollars spent in small towns during mud season absolutely matter. However, to assume that your dollars spent buys you anything other than the service you're directly paying for is a quick way to sour the relationship.

 

[87TT]

According to the CPW, out-of-state hunters bring in, from all sources, (tags, food, outfitter costs, processing fees, hotels...etc) over $1,500,000,000. Do you really believe they are going to kill that revenue stream?

I'm calling BS

 

[gelton]

This topic amuses me. The circular logic that confirms one's paradigm is flawed at its core.

Let's just look at this from the 30K ft perspective. The Western States are and have been since they were parlayed from territories into states indebted to the Federal Government, not much different than a modern-day ghetto, and that includes the Indian tribes that previously settled these lands. That is not to say it is not magnificent country with culture and history, it's just the facts.

From a population perspective, the East outnumbers the West by a margin of no less than 5 to 1. From a gun ownership perspective, the East outnumbers the West by a margin of 3 to 1. From a hunting license perspective, the East outnumbers the West by a population of 2 to 1.

So all of ya'll that are arguing that it's the State Resource, not a Federal Resource, while on the other side of your mouths spouting off about the value of public lands of which 80% resides in the West due to the Master/Slave relationship you have with the Federal Government, show true hypocrisy.

The majority of States could easily take that all away from you in an instant and you don't seem to even consider that. It's not an issue that I celebrate, where population centers can sway elections and other outcomes over more rural areas that control a much larger land mass, but it's the truth. We could turn your favorite hunting grounds into airports and ski resorts.

I just went and scouted for a tag I drew in CO and dropped no less than $3K in that state., In an area, as ritzy as it tried to be, where common citizens had to work at least two jobs to stay afloat.

I would just caution - be careful what you ask for....you just might get it,..

 

[LuvsFixedBlades]

I'm a multi-gen Colorado native and a lifelong bowhunter. I live in the mountains in a popular OTC unit. I also went to CPW's BGSS (Big Game Season Structure) meetings held in June to discuss and provide feedback on the possible changes to be made to OTC license structures. I can tell you, there weren't very many residents who cared enough to show up.

I don't like how this petition is worded. Or, how the data has been manipulated to prop up it's position. It could easily be picked apart, but that wouldn't change anything.

The petition talks about "restoring equity in 2024". First of all, nothing is happening until 2025. Changes to BGSS currently run in 5-year cycles. There are talks of possibly moving to a 7-year BGSS assessment cycle, but most seem to prefer the status quo. Secondly, there is no "equity to be restored". Nothing has been taken away, no injustice has been levied. Residents still have unlimited OTC archery and 2nd/3rd rifle licenses available until at least 2025. The rest is pure speculation of possible outcomes, of which, eliminating NR "unlimited" OTC tags does seem to be trending strongly amongst CPW and other sources.

My overall position is this:
The trend in Western states (now bleeding into high-quality whitetail states) is to reprehend non-resident hunters for all of their problems. It's a cheerless crusade that pits so many like minded people, OUR PEOPLE, against each other. Once the state dominos started to fall, it was only a matter of time until Colorado residents wanted "equity". The most generous to non-residents big game state in the West, and the last domino. That makes me sad. Sad that we have such pressure to fall in line with the rest.

I would say over the last 25 years of hunting all over the West, my favorite hunts and the places I've looked forward to going to the most, have been the adventures into the unknown that I've taken out of state. To explore new wild places and venture into country to hunt game I've never laid eyes on before is a feeling I've not found any other way. It's so hard to get those kinds of opportunities like we used to. That said, I agree with limiting the "unlimited" tags for NR, as something does indeed need to change... BUT, showing each other such deep distain for living in another state and wanting to hunt in ours, even though we all love the same thing, is only helping the anti-hunters divide our cumulative voice. We are not moving in a good direction.

There is no perfect solution to the problem in CO, and that is because everyone has different goals. CPW just approved the new R/NR allocation split %'s, so that variable is set for a while. I don't really care if the pressure is from Colorado residents or NR's, the animals don't know the difference. Cutting tags from NR's though, just to give them out endlessly to residents (which only takes 6 months in CO to qualify as) will only land us in the same place we are now over time. Colorado's already large population continues to grow at an astounding rate. It would be a short term band-aid at best. We need caps on residents as well if we are going to improve/keep OTC.

 

[Mykolaivka887]

My overall position is this: ...... I don't really care if the pressure is from Colorado residents or NR's, the animals don't know the difference. Cutting tags from NR's though, just to give them out endlessly to residents ..... will only land us in the same place we are now ....

This is so reminiscent of recent action taken by the Alaska Board of Game, when they closed Dall Sheep hunting for nonresident hunters in Game Management Unit 19.

In effect, the Board simply reallocated all those sheep to resident hunters and thereby did absolutely nothing for the conservation of Dall Sheep within that particular game management unit.

Scientifically, there is absolutely no biological reason for a sheep hunting closure of any type in GMU 19, whether for nonresident hunters and/or resident hunters, but the Board felt it necessary to allocate all the available harvestable surplus to resident hunters only, without any regard to sheep conservation.

I found that to be extremely irresponsible.

 

[IrkedCitizen]

This is what I would like to see happen.

1. Primary Draw: Collect FULL license fee up front for all species applied for (even if applying for a preference point only). While still requiring habitat stamp, qualifying license (non refundable), application fees per species (non refundable), and $50R/$100NR preference point fee moose/goat/sheep. Refund of license fee if unsuccessful and preference point awarded.

2. Secondary draw: Made Resident only. Still youth preference. Again FULL license fee required up front per species, still need habitat stamp, qualifying license (non refundable), application fees per species (non refundable). Refund of license fee if unsuccessful. No preference point awarded. Sorry not sorry on this one.

3. Leftover/reissue list: open to everyone. 100% first come first served. Habitat stamp required. Crash the website.

4. OTC elk (archery/2nd rifle/3rd rifle) with REALISTIC Cap. Open to everyone. 100% first come first serve. When Cap is hit they are gone. It could be 95% NR/ 5% Res for all I care you shouldn't have waited. Better luck next year! Habitat stamp required. If these get returned then they hit the reissue list. Crash the website.


The CPW should have never stopped collecting full license fees up front.

 

[Rich M]

Nothing wrong with building points up in a state. I said "point hoarders who have their cake and eat it too" = people who buy a Colorado elk pref point, and then buy a Colorado OTC license to hunt elk that same year. This is a big reason why there is point creep. If you hunt elk in a state as a NR, you should be at zero points. The hunting experience will be better for everyone, and it will help to erode the bank of points people are sitting on. OTC was good for awhile, but there are too many people now who want to hunt. You will need either points or money (landowner tag).

I gotcha now - that's probably always gonna be the case when there is the opportunity. I pretty much agree for the NR but not for the Res - let the Res hunt the poor quality units OTC and save up points for a trophy hunt.

The folks are going there because of the opportunity. They'll drop off significantly once the opportunity is gone.

 

[Rich M]

4. OTC elk (archery/2nd rifle/3rd rifle) with REALISTIC Cap. Open to everyone. 100% first come first serve. When Cap is hit they are gone. It could be 95% NR/ 5% Res for all I care you shouldn't have waited. Better luck next year! Habitat stamp required. If these get returned then they hit the reissue list. Crash the website.

The fee thing shouldn't make a difference if someone wants to go.

The thing for No. 4 - give em a limit and make them pay in-full non-refundable. Start the OTC license sales January 1. BEFORE the other states. That would change the dynamics.

Just as soon see em go to quota draws.

 

[Indian Summer]

For federal land, there needs to be a nation wide application process to access it, with strict limits on how many can access it at any given time. This way we all have a fair chance to utilize our federal lands.

You can access it all you want. You can hike camp fish take pictures etc. But if you want to to hunt state owned wildlife there you’ll have to pay.

 

[RancherJohn]

This topic amuses me. The circular logic that confirms one's paradigm is flawed at its core.

Let's just look at this from the 30K ft perspective. The Western States are and have been since they were parlayed from territories into states indebted to the Federal Government, not much different than a modern-day ghetto, and that includes the Indian tribes that previously settled these lands. That is not to say it is not magnificent country with culture and history, it's just the facts.

From a population perspective, the East outnumbers the West by a margin of no less than 5 to 1. From a gun ownership perspective, the East outnumbers the West by a margin of 3 to 1. From a hunting license perspective, the East outnumbers the West by a population of 2 to 1.

So all of ya'll that are arguing that it's the State Resource, not a Federal Resource, while on the other side of your mouths spouting off about the value of public lands of which 80% resides in the West due to the Master/Slave relationship you have with the Federal Government, show true hypocrisy.

The majority of States could easily take that all away from you in an instant and you don't seem to even consider that. It's not an issue that I celebrate, where population centers can sway elections and other outcomes over more rural areas that control a much larger land mass, but it's the truth. We could turn your favorite hunting grounds into airports and ski resorts.

I just went and scouted for a tag I drew in CO and dropped no less than $3K in that state., In an area, as ritzy as it tried to be, where common citizens had to work at least two jobs to stay afloat.

I would just caution - be careful what you ask for....you just might get it,..

Oh wow, $3,000! And you even vaguely threaten our resource & talk down about working two jobs to live in an area trying to be 'rizty'. We can't wait for you to come back this fall with that attitude.

If you can't understand that it's established case law that animals are owned by the state, and that simultaneously they can live on federal land (that you're still free to access 24/7/365), you're not even in the right ball park for the discussion. There's also the irony of a Texan crowing about public lands...

Again, why would CO residents want more people like you here? Your attitude is one of 'if I can't play the game by my rules, I'm taking your ball and going home.'

I'm off to go build you a shrine out here for saving all of us with your NR dollars, thank you for your sacrifice.

 

[ColoradoV]

Any western resident when someone from back east tells them how to manage their wildlife…

 

[RyanT26]

This topic amuses me. The circular logic that confirms one's paradigm is flawed at its core.

Let's just look at this from the 30K ft perspective. The Western States are and have been since they were parlayed from territories into states indebted to the Federal Government, not much different than a modern-day ghetto, and that includes the Indian tribes that previously settled these lands. That is not to say it is not magnificent country with culture and history, it's just the facts.

From a population perspective, the East outnumbers the West by a margin of no less than 5 to 1. From a gun ownership perspective, the East outnumbers the West by a margin of 3 to 1. From a hunting license perspective, the East outnumbers the West by a population of 2 to 1.

So all of ya'll that are arguing that it's the State Resource, not a Federal Resource, while on the other side of your mouths spouting off about the value of public lands of which 80% resides in the West due to the Master/Slave relationship you have with the Federal Government, show true hypocrisy.

The majority of States could easily take that all away from you in an instant and you don't seem to even consider that. It's not an issue that I celebrate, where population centers can sway elections and other outcomes over more rural areas that control a much larger land mass, but it's the truth. We could turn your favorite hunting grounds into airports and ski resorts.

I just went and scouted for a tag I drew in CO and dropped no less than $3K in that state., In an area, as ritzy as it tried to be, where common citizens had to work at least two jobs to stay afloat.

I would just caution - be careful what you ask for....you just might get it,..

You dropped $3000 on a scouting trip???
How? Why?

 

[RyanT26]

Nonresident hunters, which I am one, need to get this idiotic idea out of our head that we are some big swinging dick when it comes to financial contributions to the states.
Hunters make up 5% of the population. Hunters willing to travel to other states to hunt is probably half of that if not much lower.
Other than buying fuel, maybe groceries, a celebratory dinner if you tag out. What are you spending money on?
Maybe I’m just cheap. I bring most of my food with me. The nicest place I’ve ever stayed is KOA for a night or two, and if I’m being honest, I probably spent under $500 eating out a restaurants between a 5+ trips to Wyoming/Colorado.
I could care less if outfitters are making a living.
A family of 4 going out to Colorado on a ski trip, a weekend of white water rafting, a weekend of horseback riding, doing the general touristy stuff in Colorado Springs, etc are going to drop a hell of a lot more money into the local economies than what the majority of hunters will, and there is a hell of a lot more of them.