Painless load development (mine)

[woods89]

10 shots at 42.0. 1.0 MOA. Need to adjust turrets to zero, shoot 10 over the chrono, validate at range, and go kill stuff.

It works!

 

[Formidilosus]

View attachment 597569

10 shots at 42.0. 1.0 MOA. Need to adjust turrets to zero, shoot 10 over the chrono, validate at range, and go kill stuff.

It works!

Those will do.

 

[packgoatguy]

Reloading novice here... tried to simplify using these methods with my 300wm last fall. (Had already done a barrel break in to about 50 rounds) after going through the steps, my average velocity was around 2840. No pressure signs that i noticed. Shot fewer than 40 rounds through it. Shot another 30 or so the past few weeks, but noticed my average velocity was up (per lab radar) to mid 2870s. Then in the last 10 rounds, velocity went to 2915. Didn't change my load recipe, been shooting when it's cool in the evening and early morning. What did I do wrong? Just for curiosity sake, I shot some factory loads with it over the chrono today, like the federal terminal ascent 200gr, and getting over 2900fps in my 22 inch barrel... I think the box said I should expect only 2810 with a 24 inch barrel...

 

[Formidilosus]

Reloading novice here... tried to simplify using these methods with my 300wm last fall. (Had already done a barrel break in to about 50 rounds) after going through the steps, my average velocity was around 2840. No pressure signs that i noticed. Shot fewer than 40 rounds through it. Shot another 30 or so the past few weeks, but noticed my average velocity was up (per lab radar) to mid 2870s. Then in the last 10 rounds, velocity went to 2915. Didn't change my load recipe, been shooting when it's cool in the evening and early morning. What did I do wrong? Just for curiosity sake, I shot some factory loads with it over the chrono today, like the federal terminal ascent 200gr, and getting over 2900fps in my 22 inch barrel... I think the box said I should expect only 2810 with a 24 inch barrel...

MV generally stabilizes between 100-200 rounds.

What bullet, powder and charge are you using?

 

[packgoatguy]

MV generally stabilizes between 100-200 rounds.

What bullet, powder and charge are you using?

It is the 212gr ELDX. IMR 7828ssc, 26 thousandths off the lands. Hodgdon didn't have a specific load for it, but said 74gr max for the 208amax, and 73.2gr for 220 Sierra hpbt, so I figured max for the 212 was in between. So, when I didn't see pressure at 73.7gr, I stuck with that. Full disclosure, I now have the hornady manual, and it says max is 73.2... so I'm a half grain over that. But I can't figure how factory ammo would also be gaining that much velocity.

 

[amassi]

It is the 212gr ELDX. IMR 7828ssc, 26 thousandths off the lands. Hodgdon didn't have a specific load for it, but said 74gr max for the 208amax, and 73.2gr for 220 Sierra hpbt, so I figured max for the 212 was in between. So, when I didn't see pressure at 73.7gr, I stuck with that. Full disclosure, I now have the hornady manual, and it says max is 73.2... so I'm a half grain over that. But I can't figure how factory ammo would also be gaining that much velocity.

It is the 212gr ELDX. IMR 7828ssc, 26 thousandths off the lands. Hodgdon didn't have a specific load for it, but said 74gr max for the 208amax, and 73.2gr for 220 Sierra hpbt, so I figured max for the 212 was in between. So, when I didn't see pressure at 73.7gr, I stuck with that. Full disclosure, I now have the hornady manual, and it says max is 73.2... so I'm a half grain over that. But I can't figure how factory ammo would also be gaining that much velocity.

Barrel is speeding up
Factory ammo is all over the place, beating advertised velocity is not unheard of


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[Formidilosus]

It is the 212gr ELDX. IMR 7828ssc, 26 thousandths off the lands. Hodgdon didn't have a specific load for it, but said 74gr max for the 208amax, and 73.2gr for 220 Sierra hpbt, so I figured max for the 212 was in between. So, when I didn't see pressure at 73.7gr, I stuck with that. Full disclosure, I now have the hornady manual, and it says max is 73.2... so I'm a half grain over that. But I can't figure how factory ammo would also be gaining that much velocity.

As Amassi stated, factory ammo is generally lower actual MV than stated, however it can be higher. Some Hornady is much higher than stated.

I generally load to SAMMI COAL and stay at or under pressure. I almost never know how far off the lands I am, other than nowhere close.

 

[packgoatguy]

Barrel is speeding up
Factory ammo is all over the place, beating advertised velocity is not unheard of


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Once a barrel starts speeding up, how long until it stops? 10 rounds? 50? 100? Would I expect to see later changes in velocity or is this a one and done kind of thing?

 

[packgoatguy]

As Amassi stated, factory ammo is generally lower actual MV than stated, however it can be higher. Some Hornady is much higher than stated.

I generally load to SAMMI COAL and stay at or under pressure. I almost never know how far off the lands I am, other than nowhere close.

Well, in this case, the federal terminal ascent factory ammo I used has been quite consistent at around 2870 (which is still higher than the advertised 2810fps on the box), but then in the last 20 rounds it has sped up to over 2900.

Speaking of federal terminal ascent bullets, I had found a box of 175gr 30 cal a while back that I wanted to try and load in my 308win. Inside the box was a card from Federal that listed the max and min charges for the 175grTA for various powders. I had planned to use the power pro 2000mr, which the little card has listed. The max charge they show (as a compressed load) is 48.7gr. The closest on the Alliant chart is the 175gr Sierra bthp with a max load of 47.7 (also a compressed load) Which should I consider the max to test?

 

[amassi]

Once a barrel starts speeding up, how long until it stops? 10 rounds? 50? 100? Would I expect to see later changes in velocity or is this a one and done kind of thing?

It could take 100 rounds to settle but I’d guess sooner with the 300 win. Depends on the barrel
velocity may eventually drop with throat erosion- but by that time I’m usually ready to screw on a replacement.


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[amassi]

Well, in this case, the federal terminal ascent factory ammo I used has been quite consistent at around 2870 (which is still higher than the advertised 2810fps on the box), but then in the last 20 rounds it has sped up to over 2900.

Speaking of federal terminal ascent bullets, I had found a box of 175gr 30 cal a while back that I wanted to try and load in my 308win. Inside the box was a card from Federal that listed the max and min charges for the 175grTA for various powders. I had planned to use the power pro 2000mr, which the little card has listed. The max charge they show (as a compressed load) is 48.7gr. The closest on the Alliant chart is the 175gr Sierra bthp with a max load of 47.7 (also a compressed load) Which should I consider the max to test?

Both charges are below saami pressure if they’re published
Do with that what you will.
Is your factory ammo the same lot#?
I’ve had huge swings lot to lot even when shooting around the same temp.


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[packgoatguy]

Well, I took a break from figuring out the 300win, and tested the painless method on my ugly uberlite (5lbs 12oz including scope and suppressor) 308win kimber. 47.7gr power pro 2000mr, 178eldx to mag length, twice fired hornady brass. No signs of pressure, so 10 shots at 100. Even in spite of a 15-20mph cross wind from left to right, it still gave a 1.6 inch group (daylight pic). Then when it wasn't windy did another 10 for good measure over the labradar. 2510fps, about 25ES with the 16 inch barrel. Still about 1.6 inches, with first 3 and last 2 going in the same dime sized hole. I'd intended this for a lightweight woods carry, 200 yards max gun, but I think I could stretch it to 300. As lightweight as it is, it's not the easiest rifle to shoot.

Question though... I'm having trouble finding more 178eldx, but it looks like 178eld match is available. How similar are they? Is the same load likely to work for both? 178 eld match perform as well, worse, or better than eldx on deer, elk,etc?

 

[HighUintas]

Speaking of new barrel speed up.... Does anyone have any actual evidence that the barrel speed up is from pressure increasing over the course of the barrel stabilizing? My load last year was at 2815ish at 100is rounds and about 1.0 grain under faint ejector marks. Now this load is at about 2840 with almost 300 rounds down. I will get occasional ejector marks now. I'm at 10 reloads on the same Peterson 284 win brass with perfectly tight primer pockets, so I wouldn't think I'm over pressure.


@Formidilosus ?

 

[sdupontjr]

Decided to try this on my T3 lite 308. I had played around with TAC and some 155 scenars before with Fed 210m primers but my stash was getting low. Decided to try the 155's with Varget and CCI-200's this time. My load for my CTR is 47.5g Varget at 2.810", but the T3 lite hit pressure at 47.5 so dropped to 47g Varget. I had read this thread a while back and just never actually tried it until i got my CTR.

I had some suprising results. My avg velo was 2862 with good ES and SD. What surprised me was that 5 shots out of the 10 printed about .5MOA and the entire 10 shot string was 1.5" or so.

Gun is T3 Lite, S&B Polar 4-16x56, original T3 stock, limb saver.
Could the occasional flyer away from the group be my technique that is not having the consistency? I do know that the red line connects the furthest shot from the others and I noticed it was different brass. I usually shoot Remington brass but this one was Federal. Don't know if that matters or how that 1 brass slipped into my batch but oh well.

Is this considered good or those flyers from the "group" just part of it?


upload images

 

[PathFinder]

This example is sort of the opposite of Form's method, but in the end the results concluded that the general assumption behind his method held true.
I'm not going to post all the details again here, but you can see them in the 6 UM reloading thread. In summary I went through three powders, two bullets, and two different primers on my most recent barrel. Ten shot groups were unable to show statistically significant difference between the various load combinations. There was some experimentation to be done with a new wildcat, but the end conclusion is the same. Pick something a little under max and shoot it. In the case of the 6 UM that seems to be 66 gr N570 with a DTAC. With a cartridge with such short barrel life that saves quite a bit in the long run if load development is 20 rounds and not 120.
One thing I did gain from experimentation with seating depth is an assurance that it won't be necessary to change COAL as the throat erodes. I'm anticipating .015" of throat erosion every 100 rounds, but seating depth changes of .090" showed no change in group size. My barrel should be able to shoot the same COAL throughout its useful life.

 

[TX_Diver]

Well, I took a break from figuring out the 300win, and tested the painless method on my ugly uberlite (5lbs 12oz including scope and suppressor) 308win kimber. 47.7gr power pro 2000mr, 178eldx to mag length, twice fired hornady brass. No signs of pressure, so 10 shots at 100. Even in spite of a 15-20mph cross wind from left to right, it still gave a 1.6 inch group (daylight pic). Then when it wasn't windy did another 10 for good measure over the labradar. 2510fps, about 25ES with the 16 inch barrel. Still about 1.6 inches, with first 3 and last 2 going in the same dime sized hole. I'd intended this for a lightweight woods carry, 200 yards max gun, but I think I could stretch it to 300. As lightweight as it is, it's not the easiest rifle to shoot.

Question though... I'm having trouble finding more 178eldx, but it looks like 178eld match is available. How similar are they? Is the same load likely to work for both? 178 eld match perform as well, worse, or better than eldx on deer, elk,etc?

I have some 178 ELD-X I'd sell. Shoot me a PM and we can figure something out if you want.

 

[Harvey_NW]

My primary rifle went to the Smith and wasn't going to be here in time for season, so I picked up another Tikka in 6.5 PRC and added a Trijicon Credo in UM rings. Ordered 100 pcs of Peterson brass and a couple hundred 140 TGK's. Hodgdon's shows 59.9C book max with IMR8133 and a LRP, so I loaded one with 58gr at .010" off the lands and torched it off into the fire pit. Slight ejector mark with a little bit of swipe, loaded 20 at 57gr and went to the range.

 

[Sandstrom]

My primary rifle went to the Smith and wasn't going to be here in time for season, so I picked up another Tikka in 6.5 PRC and added a Trijicon Credo in UM rings. Ordered 100 pcs of Peterson brass and a couple hundred 140 TGK's. Hodgdon's shows 59.9C book max with IMR8133 and a LRP, so I loaded one with 58gr at .010" off the lands and torched it off into the fire pit. Slight ejector mark with a little bit of swipe, loaded 20 at 57gr and went to the range.

View attachment 609364View attachment 609363

Excellent!!

 

[HighUintas]

Speaking of new barrel speed up.... Does anyone have any actual evidence that the barrel speed up is from pressure increasing over the course of the barrel stabilizing? My load last year was at 2815ish at 100is rounds and about 1.0 grain under faint ejector marks. Now this load is at about 2840 with almost 300 rounds down. I will get occasional ejector marks now. I'm at 10 reloads on the same Peterson 284 win brass with perfectly tight primer pockets, so I wouldn't think I'm over pressure.


@Formidilosus ?

I'll reply to myself here. I think my increase in pressure might be due to brass getting too big for the chamber after 10 reloads. The web area of the case is slowly increasing in diameter and getting too tight in the chamber...some of them very tough to resize. I am had a few hard bolt lifts this evening.

I also shot some 2x brass, same load. Easy lift, no primer swipes.

 

[Formidilosus]

Somewhere between 800-900 rounds on this barrel with no cleaning whatsoever. Trying a new load with 103gr ELD-X’s. The first ten round group that has went over 1 MOA (1.01 MOA).




Then trued it up at 3,110fps MV at 962 yards.