PA House Bill 1431 - Repeal ban on Sunday Hunting

[plebe]

In Virginia, opening day of deer rifle season was a big deal when I was a kid. It was an unofficial holiday. No one expected a male between the ages of 14 and 64 to be in school or work that day. But that died out long before we were allowed to hunt on Sunday. What killed it was the overall decline in hunter numbers and the proliferation of seasons. All the serious hunters have been hunting for at least six weeks before rifle season opens now. And many folks have already tagged out by then. Last year, I had to start passing up bucks during muzzleloader season just to avoid tagging out before my brothers could come hunt with me during rifle season.

Going after "big bucks" is a product of having a ton of deer around. When deer were rare, then "any buck" was an accomplishment. But once you have really healthy populations, then it feels less of an accomplishment to shoot an "ordinary buck." I don't hunt for "accomplishment" or the adulation of others, but many do. And I think that is why western hunting is so popular, because if bigger is better, then an elk is better for bragging rights than any whitetail. Ironically, having a plentiful resource makes it seem less desirable to many folks.

I put a share of that on unintended consequence of popular hunting tv. That’s when permission private started getting locked up by a few, leases became much more profitable, etc.

But again, on PA public, they reduced the herd and that reduced the hunters in my observation. I’m sure it’s more complex with numerous factors contributing as well. But I believe it’s a fair narrative nonetheless.

 

[KenLee]

It’s not like it is illegal to go into the woods. You can scout and you can hunt crows, foxes, and coyotes. (Plus they’ve already authorized three Sundays of deer hunting).

It seems like the biggest pushback focuses on the historically religious foundation of the rule. But nobody is cancelling Thanksgiving and Christmas.

Like @HookUp said, a day of reprieve for the hunted isn’t such a bad thing.

If it’s about hunter numbers and opportunity, I think there’s discussion to be had.

There were 1.3million deer hunters in PA in the 1980s. I think I saw it reported along the lines of mid-600,000s these days.

BUT, despite the lower hunter numbers last year was the 4th highest deer harvest on record. So if it’s about opportunity and wildlife management, it seems to be ample right now as is.

I talk about canceling Christmas evey year.

 

[KurtR]

Who do you think they were giving thanks to?

President George Washington, 1789:

“By the President of the United States of America, a Proclamation.

Whereas it is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favor-- and whereas both Houses of Congress have by their joint Committee requested me to recommend to the People of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many signal favors of Almighty God especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness.

Now therefore I do recommend and assign Thursday the 26th day of November next to be devoted by the People of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being, who is the beneficent Author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be…”

Abraham Lincoln, proclamation 118- Thanksgiving Day, 1864

“Now, therefore, I, Abraham Lincoln, President of the United States, do hereby appoint and set apart the last Thursday in November next as a day which I desire to be observed by all my fellow-citizens, wherever they may then be, as a day of thanksgiving and praise to Almighty God, the beneficent Creator and Ruler of the Universe”

The Indians who showed settlers how to grow corn is a better story.

I have never thought of thanksgiving as a religious holiday, it’s usually the last weekend of west river deer so it’s hunt the morning eat lunch and go out again or the start of ice fishing some years or late season mallards.

It’s just a weird concept to me and everyone I know that they will say no hunting on Sundays unless for some management reason. We used to not be able to shoot geese after noon a few days a week. If it’s to give public land a rest that’s a legitimate reason if it’s because people want to go to church they can do that they don’t have to go hunting.

Either way will never affect me so how ever your state handles it hope it goes how you want.

 

[KenLee]

Getting rid of the ban on Sunday hunting was a great change for the better when it happened in Virginia. For me, it means I can keep hunting (I basically move to the farm in November).

But for my brothers and friends who I invite hunting, who have to drive four or five hours, it’s a godsend. They both work and their wives spend their vacation days for them. So, they can make the drive on Friday after work and then hunt Saturday and Sunday, with a drive back Sunday evening.


____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”

"Wives spend their vacation days for them"

Guys never heard of a divorce? It can be spectacular!

 

[KenLee]

A law that makes it illegal to have fun on somebody else’s holy day is not a lib-tard law. It’s a conserva-tard law. I generally don’t like tard laws of either stripe. Or tards for that matter.

Go ahead and have your holy day… it’s a free country. Right up to the point where you pass laws forcing me to observe it. Then you’re impinging on my freedom of religion.

Thumper-tard is the term I use

 

[Q_Sertorius]

"Wives spend their vacation days for them"

Guys never heard of a divorce? It can be spectacular!

I’m personally glad that my brothers and friends aren’t divorced. And not because it results in less competition for me (we share all the venison from the farm among everyone who hunts, regardless of who gets the deer).

But I’m all in favor of giving hunters more opportunity to hunt. It gives more opportunity to those who already really want to do it, without triggering FOMO in those who are undecided.


____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”

 

[plebe]

The Indians who showed settlers how to grow corn is a better story.

I have never thought of thanksgiving as a religious holiday, it’s usually the last weekend of west river deer so it’s hunt the morning eat lunch and go out again or the start of ice fishing some years or late season mallards.

It’s just a weird concept to me and everyone I know that they will say no hunting on Sundays unless for some management reason. We used to not be able to shoot geese after noon a few days a week. If it’s to give public land a rest that’s a legitimate reason if it’s because people want to go to church they can do that they don’t have to go hunting.

Either way will never affect me so how ever your state handles it hope it goes how you want.

It might have been called Cranberry Day were that the case, this was the seasonal harvest celebration of the Wampanoag Tribe that helped the Pilgrims. But Native Americans are rarely thanked in American history. And in fact the first official Thanksgiving proclamation it seems actually celebrated victory in battle over the Native American Pequot tribe.

New Haven Museum » A Thanksgiving Story

www.newhavenmuseum.org

Factually, the Wampanoag tribe watched the Pilgrim settlers for some time before brokering an alliance and treaty with them and rendering assistance. (Rightfully so as they had been previously been subjected to European enslavement.). The Native American translator who was able to effectively communicate with the settlers had in fact been previously enslaved and brought to Europe.

Some Native Americans consider Thanksgiving a day of mourning.

I’m not from PA or a resident, just hunt there. I’ll be fine either way. I’m just commenting on what I’ve observed and got somewhat involved in carryover conversation about tradition, roots, and all that kind of stuff.

Take Thanksgiving for example and what it was, has been, and is. I guess PA hunting is a bit like that. It’s just that there’s somewhat of a recency to much of it. Some things change for the better, some for the worse, and some just change. And what’s best for me isn’t necessarily just…best.

The writing is on the wall here, so it’s hard to look at it as a hot topic at all. But I do think looking backwards and comprehensively is a good exercise. Or maybe just one I enjoy. Idk. Seems like it’d be a good kaleidoscope for that mess of a public land sale bill that’s in the Senate.

 

[Jethro]

Save your complaints for times when your hunting opportunities are being taken away, not expanded.

I’m all for PGC having authority to utilize sundays how they see fit, but don’t want to see the bill pass. I don’t think an ag rep should be on the board. I’m a NR now, so my opinion doesn’t matter anymore.

 

[PSDBowhunter]

Does anyone know how many revisions there were on this bill?

I don't really follow bills, but this one has me intrigued as its in my home state. On this website: https://legiscan.com/PA/votes/HB1431/2025

It looks like it was voted on multiple times. I'm guessing there were changed that made it go from voting along party lines to passing. I'm wondering if the Ag rep was a breaking point for some people? I don't agree with the way our Game Commission board is selected. They just get appointed with zero qualifications.

 

[CMP70306]

Yeah. It's been a long fight.

You should see the heated debate because we went from a rifle deer opener on Monday to the Saturday after Thanksgiving. Some people (fogeys) are apopleptic over it.

Personally the Saturday opener and Sunday hunting are two very different topics. In the case of Sunday it’s just giving more opportunities to those who have the weekends off for the entire hunting season. You have the option to hunt it or not but it really makes little difference in the overall success of the individual hunter though it does give them more time afield.

The rifle opener however is different, it is the single most hunted day of the year in PA with what used to be over 1 million hunters taking to the woods on opening day. As a result a significant amount of pressure is put on the woods that day leading to higher than average deer movement and a subsequently high harvest. With 280,000 deer being taken in a two week period and the highest participation being the opening day it would not be a stretch to think upwards of 100,000 deer, roughly 21% of the yearly harvest and 36% of the rifle season total are taken on the opener with the second day not far behind.

With the opener on Monday and a sizable portion of the hunter base traveling to camps to hunt, generations of hunters built traditions centered around spending that Friday to Sunday up at camp with friends and family prior to the start of rifle season. With the change to Saturday pretty much all of that is gone as we get up to camp Friday and immediately start hunting Saturday Morning.

With Thanksgiving that Thursday we are backed into a corner and can’t leave any earlier to make up for lost time. For those that say ”you can just wait until Monday”, at our camp 50 to 75% of our yearly deer total is killed on the first two days of rifle season so skipping those days means a huge reduction in our harvest.

And the worst part about it is that it was a pretty much worthless change, 85% of deer hunters were already hunting the opening day on Monday, the majority of those that weren’t did so because they killed deer in archery and didn’t like the crowds. The only people who really benefitted were the people who didn’t want to take off work to hunt the opener and they were very much the minority.

Furthermore the expected increase in license sales never materialized and the license sales numbers are now so low they won’t publish them and require a FOIA request to provide them. The Commissioner who proposed it got so much push back from hunters he tried to rescind it and got outvoted by 1 vote.

So to make a long story short the change benefited few while pretty much removing the one thing that made the opening of rifle season special compared to the rest of the seasons. If they were going to truly make an impactful change I would have preferred making it a week earlier and running it concurrently with bear straight through Thanksgiving, I’d arguably end up hunting more as a result.

 

[CMP70306]

Those crying for Sunday hunting won't hunt much, or at all on that day anyways. People just want more of everything...it's the human condition.

I’m at camp most weekends from September through the end of hunting season in February, having the option to hunt Sundays would double my available hunting days with zero change to my current schedule. I already hunted the 3 available Sundays and would absolutely use more of them if they were available.

Another thing is that now I have a bird dog and we planned to buy pheasants to hunt on our property. If we release them we can only do so during pheasant season and have to follow the laws which means we can only shoot two per day and can’t hunt them on Sunday. Having the ability to hunt them on Sunday makes putting together a bird hunting weekend a much more feasible idea as we could hunt both days rather than just one.

I’m not particularly against Sunday hunting at all. But when the non-secular freedom based arguments are made they loose a lot of luster if folks don’t consider them across the board. Let’s see what kind of backlash a bill canceling Christmas and Thanksgiving looks like. No matter what people might say as a matter of argument, the traditions and customs associated with those holidays have solidified those festivities as matters of national importance.

PA used to have a hunting culture steeped in tradition and custom. And it’s now, less so. Even though trophy deer hunting is better than ever, hunter numbers are down.

Perhaps correlation isn’t causation, but from what I’ve witnessed, they basically lost a generation of hunters when they put the antler restrictions into play and decimated herd numbers with excessively liberal doe permits. (I’m not particularly against the antler restrictions). But the way they ran the deer herds into the ground turned so many hunters away. So they basically destroyed their long-standing hunting tradition by estranging it’s base of not really die hard trophy hunters, and moving opening day to a Saturday and overturning the ban on Sunday hunting just continue that trend.

Now that they’ve killed the culture and tradition of PA deer hunting, and now that the herd has recovered, the state is adapting to how it’s done elsewhere…because most folks don’t remember or care about the PA hunting tradition. So they’ll modernize, and maybe like the deer herd a new tradition will emerge. There will be more opportunity than ever, and bigger bucks for certain, but it will never be the same, and will almost certainly lack the culture, tradition, and soul that made it a rather special thing of importance.

While I agree with some of what you are saying regarding the culture, there are a few things that I disagree with, namely doe tags and antler restrictions. The doe tags increase was a necessary change that came far to late for the north central counties that epitomized the PA Deer Camp traditions. The deer in those areas were overpopulated for the terrain and over browsed the understory, such a population could withstand this while the forest was young but as logging dropped off and the forest matured the undergrowth was hammered to the point it could no longer sustain such a large number of deer.

The other issue could be that in the later years there really weren’t as many deer as people remembered but the lack of killing does for two weeks and the high coverage in the woods lead to them being bounced from hunter to hunter who was looking for a buck. This would give the appearance of higher deer numbers as drives would push ever increasing herds of 20, 30, 50 does and the occasional buck they picked up. These days the does never make it very far as they start getting shot and the herd broken up in short order.

With antler restrictions the whole goal was to increase the buck age class so that you didn’t have a tiny number of 1.5 year old bucks trying to breed the majority of the does. The issue with that is that it drags rut out into January and the fawns are born late leaving them smaller and far more susceptible to a hard winter the following year. The bigger bucks weren’t the main goal but it was a benefit and a way to sell it to the hunters as a good thing with tangible benefits to them.

When they had the antler restrictions and concurrent doe season there was a period from 2006 to 2013 that license sales started increasing again. That ended with the switch to a first week buck season which kicked off the current decade long drop.

I would argue having the season open on Saturday opens up more opportunity if hunter recruitment is the talking point. Antler restrictions are also not enforced against junior hunters (I believe?); so if the person hasn't become a hunter by their 16th birthday antler restrictions are not the problem. You're not going to get most kids these days into the woods for a spike buck at most when all they see on instagram and youtube are 8 points minimum

Speaking of tradition, I've never met someone who hunted with a flintlock and I've hunted in PA my whole life. When compound and crossbows came out was when all "culture and tradition" was lost not with the antler restriction

They made that argument too, last I saw covid gave a brief reprieve in the drop from 2019-2021 that the PGC argued as a win until 2022 when the bottom dropped out and now they don’t freely post the license sales info anymore as a result because it is only getting worse.

As for flintlocks they are a fairly narrow band of hunter, muzzleloader hunters make up less than 20% of hunters and flintlock hunters are even less than that. Most in our group have hunted with them at various points but with the main season being after Christmas when 30% of the herd has been killed and many bucks have lost their antlers it’s more a novelty at best.

 

[CMP70306]

I was going along with groups of hunters during flintlock season before I was old enough to hunt. Hunting with a flintlock is still probably the most fun to me.

There was a time in PA when a buck was a buck. Truly. Didn’t matter if you got a big buck or a buck with a tiny spike. Sure everyone admired the nice one’s, but getting any buck was the goal and duly applauded. Certainly the shift to a trophy buck culture has had some impacts, like you suggest. The base of PA hunters weren’t die hard big-buck hunters before all these changes were implemented. A successful opening day might have looked like 250 deer sighted and a three pointer tagged.

It was really herd decimation, not antler restrictions, that disheartened hunters at the time. In short order, maybe you only saw a handful of deer or none at all or one buck and you couldn’t shoot it on opening day. But some guy or gal here or there got a good one. There just weren’t the deer, even though more big ones were being shot. The average hunter didn’t so much care about the big ones when the excitement of seeing lots of deer was seemingly forever gone. And as people quit hunting, fewer and fewer deer got pushed around and everything snowballed.

Anyway, that’s what I observed.

Despite the old buck is a buck mentality, I doubt antler restrictions alone would have been so impactful. They largely just shift the age group of shootable bucks one year and likely have minimal impact if any on the number of shootable bucks. Killing all the does concurrently was a bad move. Shoot one and you’ve probably killed three deer from next year’s population. And boy they whacked them before they had established numbers in that older age class of bucks from the antler restrictions.

I agree on paper it’s completely true, the Saturday and Sunday opening weekend adds two days. However, opening on Saturday has changed the culture and tradition that went along with the Monday “Deer Day”. And we’ll have to see if Deer Day isn’t a tradition that dies altogether.

As has been said, for many, the dynamics of opening firearms season on the Saturday following Thanksgiving has effected aspects of camaraderie leading up to the hunt, especially for those traveling to hunting destinations away from home. Honestly, opening on Sunday could be an interesting compromise, but the weekday Deer Day as a statewide tradition isn’t what it was. And it was kind of a unifying thing that I’m not sure Saturday can ever be. Maybe I’m wrong. I hope so. Out of all the states I’ve hunted, none had such a strong tie to hunting, culturally speaking, as PA.

One other thing to note is that at the time of AR license sales were already in a decade long slide that was briefly bumped up due to the flood of doe tags during the herd reduction years from 1999 to 2003.

I mean think about your statement, 250 deer seen and only one buck with antlers longer than 3 inches, that points to a wildly out of whack buck to doe ratio as well as a wildly out of balance population. The average deer per square mile in the big woods is somewhere between 10 for mature forests and 40 in prime early regeneration. If you were seeing 250 deer in one day you were either seeing between 6.25 to 25 square miles worth of deer or the same group of deer was getting ping ponged between multiple hunters who were seeing does that nobody was shooting.

Herd reduction got rid of that not because people killed off all the does but because with the concurrent buck and doe season they started killing the does instead of letting them run between everyone. As a result the herd got split up and hunkered down as its way easier for one deer to hide instead of 20.

That being said I would 100% support a Sunday opener and think it would be a good compromise between those who enjoy the Saturday opener and those who enjoy the Monday opener. The Saturday crowd still gets a weekend day to hunt and not take off work while the Monday crowd gets a day at camp and a bit of breathing room between Thanksgiving and the start of rifle season.

 

[plebe]

One other thing to note is that at the time of AR license sales were already in a decade long slide that was briefly bumped up due to the flood of doe tags during the herd reduction years from 1999 to 2003.

I mean think about your statement, 250 deer seen and only one buck with antlers longer than 3 inches, that points to a wildly out of whack buck to doe ratio as well as a wildly out of balance population. The average deer per square mile in the big woods is somewhere between 10 for mature forests and 40 in prime early regeneration. If you were seeing 250 deer in one day you were either seeing between 6.25 to 25 square miles worth of deer or the same group of deer was getting ping ponged between multiple hunters who were seeing does that nobody was shooting.

Herd reduction got rid of that not because people killed off all the does but because with the concurrent buck and doe season they started killing the does instead of letting them run between everyone. As a result the herd got split up and hunkered down as its way easier for one deer to hide instead of 20.

That being said I would 100% support a Sunday opener and think it would be a good compromise between those who enjoy the Saturday opener and those who enjoy the Monday opener. The Saturday crowd still gets a weekend day to hunt and not take off work while the Monday crowd gets a day at camp and a bit of breathing room between Thanksgiving and the start of rifle season.

250 deer seen and a small buck taken.

Yes some were absolutely deer bumped about, but you saw a lot of deer is the point.

Everyone in camp took at least a small buck much of the time.

There was shooting all day. It’s not like that anymore, but has improved to where folks from VT, ME, NH are saying it’s incredible all the deer there are. I’m not complaining. Last hunt I saw around 30 deer, 3 shootable bucks with one being very nice on the opener.

What I’m saying is it’s not what it was prior to the 2000s nor the abomination it was a couple years after the “herd management” policies had their effect.

IMO, they didn’t need to cut it back to nothing and let it slowly come back up. Makes no sense. And it certainly had an effect on hunter interest.

I understand carrying capacity, and maybe the lands were close to maxed out, but there was a good population every year nonetheless. Then they whacked the does and the population was decimated. Groups of hunters that always got bucks would maybe get one amongst them or none and see sparse deer numbers.

Like I said, happily it’s come back to a level where the hunting is fine enough. Just it came at the cost of a generation of hunters and the tradition of the state.

My observation, my opinion. I’m sure folks who hunt private land or elsewhere in the state have their own and possibly quite different experiences of it.

 

[plebe]

That being said I would 100% support a Sunday opener and think it would be a good compromise between those who enjoy the Saturday opener and those who enjoy the Monday opener. The Saturday crowd still gets a weekend day to hunt and not take off work while the Monday crowd gets a day at camp and a bit of breathing room between Thanksgiving and the start of rifle season.

If the Monday bill also gets traction, ending on a Sunday instead of a Saturday would probably be met with fair approval.

That would reestablish something of the PA hunting identity with a meaningful Deer Day. And there would be two Sundays.

 

[Jethro]

The Monday start date amendment did not pass the house

 

[plebe]

The Monday start date amendment did not pass the house

Roger, I didn’t see that.

 

[Coopsdaddy]

Great example of why we need less government.
What the hell is it anyone’s bussiness what I do on Sunday.
Church,cookout,beer,hunt,golf etc is no one’s bussiness.

 

[mitchellmountain]

I hunt Pa and Ny primarily. I'm for lifting the ban, many people have given up the past time because of work. That being said I feel the much bigger issue is Hunter access. Something has been be done to reverse the trend of automatic posting one's land. I'm not saying a law needs to be put in place at all, just that if access continues to decrease so will Hunter recruitment. It was nothing in the 90's to get out of the truck and hunt a piece, no harm no foul because it was expected others would do the same on yours. Now it is rare to be driving along and not see posted signs. Kids get bored hunting the same 40 acres, and I don't blame them. Half of falling in love with the sport was the adventure, thst sadly is being lost and being replaced with the quest for the biggest buck.

 

[Glendon Mullins]

good luck to you guys trying to get it passed, we fought these Sunday hunting bans in Virginia and West Virginia a few years back, and I see a lot of the same old regurgitated info being spread about the downfalls of hunting if Sunday hunting is allowed.

In reality passing Sunday hunting in Virginia and West Virginia really didn't change shit lol, harvest #'s stated about the same, hunted participation stayed about the same etc. etc. the deer have not become extinct, and the churches all seem to be doing well also

 

[Jpsmith1]

You can go hunting on thanksgiving and Christmas

Not on Christmas in PA.