PA House Bill 1431 - Repeal ban on Sunday Hunting

[KurtR]

It’s not like it is illegal to go into the woods. You can scout and you can hunt crows, foxes, and coyotes. (Plus they’ve already authorized three Sundays of deer hunting).

It seems like the biggest pushback focuses on the historically religious foundation of the rule. But nobody is cancelling Thanksgiving and Christmas.

Like @HookUp said, a day of reprieve for the hunted isn’t such a bad thing.

If it’s about hunter numbers and opportunity, I think there’s discussion to be had.

There were 1.3million deer hunters in PA in the 1980s. I think I saw it reported along the lines of mid-600,000s these days.

BUT, despite the lower hunter numbers last year was the 4th highest deer harvest on record. So if it’s about opportunity and wildlife management, it seems to be ample right now as is.

You can go hunting on thanksgiving and Christmas

 

[plebe]

You can go hunting on thanksgiving and Christmas

In PA, no, not for deer.

But the point is folks aren’t bellyaching about having those holidays off. But want their cake and to eat it too about hunting on Sundays.

 

[98XJRC]

As a Pennsylvania hunter I'd love to see all Sunday's open for hunting. I live in Lancaster county, but prefer by far to hunt the state forests up north. With a family I only have so many vacation days I can use strictly for hunting. Making the 3-4 hour trek north on the weekends to only be able to get a day in makes zero sense for me, so it doesn't happen. By opening up all Sunday's I would anticipate seeing more of the traditional camps open most weekends helping the economy in the mountain towns. Granted last year I went north to hunt the Sunday in archery and wouldn't be shocked if I was the only guy up on that mountain.

I also see it as if you want to hunt Sunday by all means do so, and if you don't then that's fine too. Private land owners will still have their options and if they don't want their land being hunted on Sunday's then that's there decision. The public lands are all still open on Sunday's for recreational use, so the giving the lands a break for a day I see little weight in the argument.

 

[KurtR]

In PA, no, not for deer.

But the point is folks aren’t bellyaching about having those holidays off. But want their cake and to eat it too about hunting on Sundays.

I guess i was talking about normal places. I dont understand why any day is off set the season and go hunting. If some one doesnt want to hunt they can choose to .

 

[plebe]

The public lands are all still open on Sunday's for recreational use, so the giving the lands a break for a day I see little weight in the argument.

Most people don’t trek off trail during their recreational use. I make trips from out of state. It would only be easier for me as well with the Sunday option. However I can positively say in the areas you are talking about, recreational use on Sundays is not much at all.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

Getting rid of the ban on Sunday hunting was a great change for the better when it happened in Virginia. For me, it means I can keep hunting (I basically move to the farm in November).

But for my brothers and friends who I invite hunting, who have to drive four or five hours, it’s a godsend. They both work and their wives spend their vacation days for them. So, they can make the drive on Friday after work and then hunt Saturday and Sunday, with a drive back Sunday evening.


____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”

 

[Pochuck]

Those crying for Sunday hunting won't hunt much, or at all on that day anyways. People just want more of everything...it's the human condition.

It would double my hunting time as a nonresident who works 5 days a week to pay for property taxes in Pennsylvania

 

[hunt1up]

There's what, 42 states that hunt on Sunday? Something like that, give or take. It would be one thing if this PA "argument" was something novel. The rest of the country is looking at you and laughing. It's not like there's some great unknown consequence on the horizon when Sunday hunting becomes a thing, you've got the entire country as precedent.

 

[98XJRC]

Most people don’t trek off trail during their recreational use. I make trips from out of state. It would only be easier for me as well with the Sunday option. However I can positively say in the areas you are talking about, recreational use on Sundays is not much at all.

Correct, but hunting pressure in those areas is also extremely minimum most days of the week with Friday and Saturday being slightly elevated. I'm more or less referring to the Game Lands closer to the population centers.

 

[Vrybusy]

I hope the bill gets passed! Time to move forward. Limit the seasons as they do now - days and bag limits, not the days within the seasons. Like most of the country, if you want to hunt on Sunday great, if not, that's fine too. However, it would be nice to have the option.

 

[Coopsdaddy]

A law that makes it illegal to have fun on somebody else’s holy day is not a lib-tard law. It’s a conserva-tard law. I generally don’t like tard laws of either stripe. Or tards for that matter.

Go ahead and have your holy day… it’s a free country. Right up to the point where you pass laws forcing me to observe it. Then you’re impinging on my freedom of religion.

Absolutely

 

[Tater86]

One post in this thread pointed out the biggest issue with this bill. It specifically calls for a special interest group to require one of the board of commissioners to have a background in agriculture. Granted, ag is a safe background and special interest, but now you have opened the door for every special interest to push for a seat at the table. It's just opening a can of worms in the situation. It should have been a clean bill without all this other crap added.

Also, to the one other poster, no one has officially said how the seasons will change. We could get up to an additional two weeks of archery/rifle season technically. PA keeps increasing the days you can hunt, not shortening them. The area I hunt just expanded a 3 week rifle antlerless season after Jan 1st.

And for those saying that if you don't like the Saturday opener, just wait to Monday to start. Well, the Monday crowd has the same remark back if you don't like the Monday opener wait to Saturday. How many people would be complaining if we were like MI and your season always starts on November 15th? Would you start complianing opening day is on a Tuesday?

 

[plebe]

I guess i was talking about normal places. I dont understand why any day is off set the season and go hunting. If some one doesnt want to hunt they can choose to .

I’m not particularly against Sunday hunting at all. But when the non-secular freedom based arguments are made they loose a lot of luster if folks don’t consider them across the board. Let’s see what kind of backlash a bill canceling Christmas and Thanksgiving looks like. No matter what people might say as a matter of argument, the traditions and customs associated with those holidays have solidified those festivities as matters of national importance.

PA used to have a hunting culture steeped in tradition and custom. And it’s now, less so. Even though trophy deer hunting is better than ever, hunter numbers are down.

Perhaps correlation isn’t causation, but from what I’ve witnessed, they basically lost a generation of hunters when they put the antler restrictions into play and decimated herd numbers with excessively liberal doe permits. (I’m not particularly against the antler restrictions). But the way they ran the deer herds into the ground turned so many hunters away. So they basically destroyed their long-standing hunting tradition by estranging it’s base of not really die hard trophy hunters, and moving opening day to a Saturday and overturning the ban on Sunday hunting just continue that trend.

Now that they’ve killed the culture and tradition of PA deer hunting, and now that the herd has recovered, the state is adapting to how it’s done elsewhere…because most folks don’t remember or care about the PA hunting tradition. So they’ll modernize, and maybe like the deer herd reemergence a new tradition will come to bear as well. There will be more opportunity than ever, and bigger bucks for certain, but it will never be the same, and will almost certainly lack the culture, tradition, and soul that made it a rather special thing of importance.

 

[plebe]

Correct, but hunting pressure in those areas is also extremely minimum most days of the week with Friday and Saturday being slightly elevated. I'm more or less referring to the Game Lands closer to the population centers.

Honestly if lots of people were doing non-hunting recreational activities during that time of year, it’d be a good argument for blocking some weekend days from hunting activity. Just to be fair to the non-hunters. But I doubt that logic will be well received on a hunting forum, lol.

 

[Pochuck]

I’m not particularly against Sunday hunting at all. But when the non-secular freedom based arguments are made they loose a lot of luster if folks don’t consider them across the board. Let’s see what kind of backlash a bill canceling Christmas and Thanksgiving looks like. No matter what people might say as a matter of argument, the traditions and customs associated with those holidays have solidified those festivities as matters of national importance.

PA used to have a hunting culture steeped in tradition and custom. And it’s now, less so. Even though trophy deer hunting is better than ever, hunter numbers are down.

Perhaps correlation isn’t causation, but from what I’ve witnessed, they basically lost a generation of hunters when they put the antler restrictions into play and decimated herd numbers with excessively liberal doe permits. (I’m not particularly against the antler restrictions). But the way they ran the deer herds into the ground turned so many hunters away. So they basically destroyed their long-standing hunting tradition by estranging it’s base of not really die hard trophy hunters, and moving opening day to a Saturday and overturning the ban on Sunday hunting just continue that trend.

Now that they’ve killed the culture and tradition of PA deer hunting, and now that the herd has recovered, the state is adapting to how it’s done elsewhere…because most folks don’t remember or care about the PA hunting tradition. So they’ll modernize, and maybe like the deer herd a new tradition will emerge. There will be more opportunity than ever, and bigger bucks for certain, but it will never be the same, and will almost certainly lack the culture, tradition, and soul that made it a rather special thing of importance.

I would argue having the season open on Saturday opens up more opportunity if hunter recruitment is the talking point. Antler restrictions are also not enforced against junior hunters (I believe?); so if the person hasn't become a hunter by their 16th birthday antler restrictions are not the problem. You're not going to get most kids these days into the woods for a spike buck at most when all they see on instagram and youtube are 8 points minimum

Speaking of tradition, I've never met someone who hunted with a flintlock and I've hunted in PA my whole life. When compound and crossbows came out was when all "culture and tradition" was lost not with the antler restriction

 

[KurtR]

I’m not particularly against Sunday hunting at all. But when the non-secular freedom based arguments are made they loose a lot of luster if folks don’t consider them across the board. Let’s see what kind of backlash a bill canceling Christmas and Thanksgiving looks like. No matter what people might say as a matter of argument, the traditions and customs associated with those holidays have solidified those festivities as matters of national importance.

PA used to have a hunting culture steeped in tradition and custom. And it’s now, less so. Even though trophy deer hunting is better than ever, hunter numbers are down.

Perhaps correlation isn’t causation, but from what I’ve witnessed, they basically lost a generation of hunters when they put the antler restrictions into play and decimated herd numbers with excessively liberal doe permits. (I’m not particularly against the antler restrictions). But the way they ran the deer herds into the ground turned so many hunters away. So they basically destroyed their long-standing hunting tradition by estranging it’s base of not really die hard trophy hunters, and moving opening day to a Saturday and overturning the ban on Sunday hunting just continue that trend.

Now that they’ve killed the culture and tradition of PA deer hunting, and now that the herd has recovered, the state is adapting to how it’s done elsewhere…because most folks don’t remember or care about the PA hunting tradition. So they’ll modernize, and maybe like the deer herd a new tradition will emerge. There will be more opportunity than ever, and bigger bucks for certain, but it will never be the same, and will almost certainly lack the culture, tradition, and soul that made it a rather special thing of importance.

This concept is so foreign to me I’m not understanding the comparison to especially thanksgiving as that has no relation to religion maybe Christmas. But this rule is was implemented because of church on Sunday?

 

[Q_Sertorius]

This concept is so foreign to me I’m not understanding the comparison to especially thanksgiving as that has no relation to religion maybe Christmas. But this rule is was implemented because of church on Sunday?

Yes, because our ancestors felt it necessary to force people to go to church. Or, failing that, to ensure that they couldn’t legally do anything fun on Sunday.


____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”

 

[plebe]

I would argue having the season open on Saturday opens up more opportunity if hunter recruitment is the talking point. Antler restrictions are also not enforced against junior hunters (I believe?); so if the person hasn't become a hunter by their 16th birthday antler restrictions are not the problem. You're not going to get most kids these days into the woods for a spike buck at most when all they see on instagram and youtube are 8 points minimum

Speaking of tradition, I've never met someone who hunted with a flintlock and I've hunted in PA my whole life. When compound and crossbows came out was when all "culture and tradition" was lost not with the antler restriction

I was going along with groups of hunters during flintlock season before I was old enough to hunt. Hunting with a flintlock is still probably the most fun to me.

There was a time in PA when a buck was a buck. Truly. Didn’t matter if you got a big buck or a buck with a tiny spike. Sure everyone admired the nice one’s, but getting any buck was the goal and duly applauded. Certainly the shift to a trophy buck culture has had some impacts, like you suggest. The base of PA hunters weren’t die hard big-buck hunters before all these changes were implemented. A successful opening day might have looked like 250 deer sighted and a three pointer tagged.

It was really herd decimation, not antler restrictions, that disheartened hunters at the time. In short order, maybe you only saw a handful of deer or none at all or one buck and you couldn’t shoot it on opening day. But some guy or gal here or there got a good one. There just weren’t the deer, even though more big ones were being shot. The average hunter didn’t so much care about the big ones when the excitement of seeing lots of deer was seemingly forever gone. And as people quit hunting, fewer and fewer deer got pushed around and everything snowballed.

Anyway, that’s what I observed.

Despite the old buck is a buck mentality, I doubt antler restrictions alone would have been so impactful. They largely just shift the age group of shootable bucks one year and likely have minimal impact if any on the number of shootable bucks. Killing all the does concurrently was a bad move. Shoot one and you’ve probably killed three deer from next year’s population. And boy they whacked them before they had established numbers in that older age class of bucks from the antler restrictions.

I agree on paper it’s completely true, the Saturday and Sunday opening weekend adds two days. However, opening on Saturday has changed the culture and tradition that went along with the Monday “Deer Day”. And we’ll have to see if Deer Day isn’t a tradition that dies altogether.

As has been said, for many, the dynamics of opening firearms season on the Saturday following Thanksgiving has effected aspects of camaraderie leading up to the hunt, especially for those traveling to hunting destinations away from home. Honestly, opening on Sunday could be an interesting compromise, but the weekday Deer Day as a statewide tradition isn’t what it was. And it was kind of a unifying thing that I’m not sure Saturday can ever be. Maybe I’m wrong. I hope so. Out of all the states I’ve hunted, none had such a strong tie to hunting, culturally speaking, as PA.

 

[plebe]

This concept is so foreign to me I’m not understanding the comparison to especially thanksgiving as that has no relation to religion maybe Christmas. But this rule is was implemented because of church on Sunday?

Who do you think they were giving thanks to?

President George Washington, 1789:

“By the President of the United States of America, a Proclamation.

Whereas it is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favor-- and whereas both Houses of Congress have by their joint Committee requested me to recommend to the People of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many signal favors of Almighty God especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness.

Now therefore I do recommend and assign Thursday the 26th day of November next to be devoted by the People of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being, who is the beneficent Author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be…”

Abraham Lincoln, proclamation 118- Thanksgiving Day, 1864

“Now, therefore, I, Abraham Lincoln, President of the United States, do hereby appoint and set apart the last Thursday in November next as a day which I desire to be observed by all my fellow-citizens, wherever they may then be, as a day of thanksgiving and praise to Almighty God, the beneficent Creator and Ruler of the Universe”

 

[Q_Sertorius]

In Virginia, opening day of deer rifle season was a big deal when I was a kid. It was an unofficial holiday. No one expected a male between the ages of 14 and 64 to be in school or work that day. But that died out long before we were allowed to hunt on Sunday. What killed it was the overall decline in hunter numbers and the proliferation of seasons. All the serious hunters have been hunting for at least six weeks before rifle season opens now. And many folks have already tagged out by then. Last year, I had to start passing up bucks during muzzleloader season just to avoid tagging out before my brothers could come hunt with me during rifle season.

Going after "big bucks" is a product of having a ton of deer around. When deer were rare, then "any buck" was an accomplishment. But once you have really healthy populations, then it feels less of an accomplishment to shoot an "ordinary buck." I don't hunt for "accomplishment" or the adulation of others, but many do. And I think that is why western hunting is so popular, because if bigger is better, then an elk is better for bragging rights than any whitetail. Ironically, having a plentiful resource makes it seem less desirable to many folks.