Oregon hunting guide killed by accidental discharge

[CMP70306]

So now I don’t have all the details but based on the initial article it’s pretty easy to see how something like that could happen without anyone directly doing anything intentionally negligent like blatantly flagging someone.

It says they saw elk and exited the sxs, assume that the guide is driving so the hunter is in the passenger seat. They see elk so they stop and exit, hunter gets out and starts loading his rifle pointing away from the group towards the front of the sxs. Guide is looking for the elk not paying attention to the hunter and walks around the front of the sxs unintentionally putting himself inline with the hunters rifle.

Hunter thinks he has his rifle pointed in a safe direction and is focused on loading, doesn’t realize the guide has moved and is now walking right into the line of fire. Hunter closes the bolt on a live round and the sear slips dropping the striker and setting off the rifle which is now unintentionally pointed at the guide and the guide gets killed.

All of that could happen in just a few seconds, buddy of mine had a jewel trigger set at 2 pounds, it was fine for years until one day we were shooting some targets in between pig hunts. He had just used the rifle the night before and had already shot several rounds that day all with no issues. He had the rifle in a lead sled pointed at the target and when he closed the bolt the gun went off. At first he thought he might have hit the trigger but while testing it ended up happening again on an empty chamber when his hand was nowhere near the trigger so he cased the rifle until he could send the trigger back to jewel.

Either way it is a tragic situation, one that only takes a split second to go from perfectly safe happy trip to a fatal life changing event.

 

[Dave0317]

@*zap* , someone said basic firearm safety would have prevented this. You said that was incorrect.

Do you believe that if the shooter had utilized basic firearms safety, that the guide would still be alive?

Let me define basic firearm safety as…

1. Muzzle pointed in safe direction
2. Gun unloaded until ready to fire
3. Don’t rely on your guns safety
4. Don’t point a gun at something you don’t wish to destroy

I’m sure you are aware, but your 1 and 4 are almost the same. A good list a lot of organizations use is Jeff Cooper’s:

1. Treat every weapon as if it were loaded.
2. Keep your finger straight and off the trigger until you’re ready to fire.
3. Never point a weapon at anything you do not intend to shoot.
4. Be sure of your target and what is in front and behind it.

I’ve been around a few firearms NDs and investigated a handful of others. In almost all of them, multiple of these rules get violated in order for the incident to occur. For the most part, if only one gets violated, the ND doesn’t happen, or no one gets hurt if it does. Multiple get violated=people get hurt or killed.

As others have mentioned, it’s not always practical to have an unloaded gun. Ask a pheasant hunter, rabbit hunter, still-hunter, anyone that hunts driven game, dangerous game, etc.
Jeff cooper has a good chapter in one of his books called “rifle handling under hazard”. It’s either in his Art of the Rifle or To Ride Shoot Straight and Speak the Truth. Has some good advice on this topic as well.

Lastly, for the group, I’ll say these things are preventable, but always act as if it could easily happen. Don’t underestimate the possibility of fatigue, complacency, lack of O2 at altitude, old age, etc, affecting even the most experienced hunters.

 

[Snowwolfe]

there’s no such thing as an accidental discharge. It’s a negligent discharge

A bunch of Remington rifle owners would disagree with you

 

[Oregon]

Let’s stay on track. We lost a good man due to someone else’s stupidity.
I killed my first bull because Jon put me on a stump in a reprod patch and said do not get off this stump until I come get you or you shoot a bull. 1994. Long before he was a guide. Was at his house the week before this incident. Most intuitive hunter I’ve ever been around. I still think today he was part deer/elk.
Still coping with this.

 

[hikenhunt]

I am not arguing. Simply explaining why I am correct.

Oh man….!! I’m gonna save that one up for my next argument (explaining session) It’s exactly like “I’m sorry ma’am, I don’t make the rules. I just think em up and write em down.”

Zap, I have a mug for you!

 

[Ucsdryder]

Zap, I have a mug for you!

View attachment 790883

He’ll make someone a hell of a wife!

 

[freebird]

I grew up with this guide, I hunted, fished and trapped. He was a stand up guy. This was a tragedy. I have only seen the initial police report. I'm heart broken for his mom, wife, daughters and grand kids.
This Saturday I will be saying my final goodbye to my life long friend in Halfway. We just need to be better and take a little time and pay attention so we can make it home to our loved ones.

 

[Rotnguns]

Tell me how I get other people to follow those safety precautions. People I do not know who are at the range or walking around the woods.

Zap, I see your point from a fatalistic perspective, but maybe the best way to phrase the safety comment is: "If all parties concerned practiced basic safety procedures, the guide would not have been shot."

 

[fngTony]

Yesterday this got immature and down in the weeds with tangent conversations. Out of respect for everyone involved and people that personally know them (several members included) let’s keep this classy and informative.

 

[neill_88]

A bunch of Remington rifle owners would disagree with you

No kidding, especially with some self done “custom” trigger work.

 

[Bolt]

Most likely a negligent discharge not accidental.

I know this won't sit well with everyone and I may even prove my own point slightly wrong.
There are no ADs there are only NDs, especially the ones that harm or kill people.
What I mean by this is, if your gun is properly maintained and doesn't have its trigger set to absurdly light weight for hunting applications your gun should never just go off.
Furthermore, your muzzle should always be pointed in a safe location loaded or perceived unloaded! If you always follow these simple steps even if there is a ND you don't kill someone.
I once had a ND when loading a side by side. Put 2 16 gauge shells in and as soon as I closed the chamber both went off. There were several people around however I had the muzzle in a safe direction and no one was injured. When I assessed the situation the safety was still on and the gun had indeed malfunctioned. To this day I have never touched that gun and have no desire to sell or get it fixed. I was 14 at the time and from that day on I don't tolerate any folks that are not adhering to safety first with guns. I even parted ways with a hunting partner because he was always sweeping the barrel in the back country.
Be safe folks
Tragic for all involved

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk

 

[JohnJohnson]

buddy of mine had a jewel trigger set at 2 pounds

This is a side note since I think Jewell went out of business anyway but they never had good reputations for field use. They were an accident waiting to happen. Either with what you described or the trigger not functioning if any grit got into them. That's at least the prevailing reputation I was aware of.

For those out there looking for nice R700 pattern triggers, choose wisely and set them up right with testing for slamfires. TriggerTech, Bix n' Andy, XTSP, and Timney (I guess) are good places to start. Though be aware, the XTSP is easier than most to adjust to the point of unsafe function and also the easiest to set off from dropping the rifle with the safety off.

 

[GSPHUNTER]

Special message for zap

Well, that settles that. Christen by the HMIC. I bow to the "Zap".

 

[GSPHUNTER]

I grew up with this guide, I hunted, fished and trapped. He was a stand up guy. This was a tragedy. I have only seen the initial police report. I'm heart broken for his mom, wife, daughters and grand kids.
This Saturday I will be saying my final goodbye to my life long friend in Halfway. We just need to be better and take a little time and pay attention so we can make it home to our loved ones.

Sorry for you and his entire family.

 

[ccthomasjr]

This is horrible. Turns my stomach to just read it and a huge fear of mine

 

[Silver Wings]

I know this won't sit well with everyone and I may even prove my own point slightly wrong.
There are no ADs there are only NDs, especially the ones that harm or kill people.
What I mean by this is, if your gun is properly maintained and doesn't have its trigger set to absurdly light weight for hunting applications your gun should never just go off.
Furthermore, your muzzle should always be pointed in a safe location loaded or perceived unloaded! If you always follow these simple steps even if there is a ND you don't kill someone.
I once had a ND when loading a side by side. Put 2 16 gauge shells in and as soon as I closed the chamber both went off. There were several people around however I had the muzzle in a safe direction and no one was injured. When I assessed the situation the safety was still on and the gun had indeed malfunctioned. To this day I have never touched that gun and have no desire to sell or get it fixed. I was 14 at the time and from that day on I don't tolerate any folks that are not adhering to safety first with guns. I even parted ways with a hunting partner because he was always sweeping the barrel in the back country.
Be safe folks
Tragic for all involved

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk

For me, there are absolutely accidental discharges and I believe yours would fall into that category, however they are exceedingly rare. NDs exceed ADs by a factor of many thousands, I would wager.
I define an AD as an unforeseeable mechanical failure that leads to an unintended discharge. That doesn’t absolve the handler of blame if he happens to be breaking a basic tenant of firearms safety at the moment the mechanical failure occurs and subsequently someone is killed or injured.
Basic firearms safety is multi layered so that no one can be injured unless multiple violations occur simultaneously.

Edit…in the spirit of transparency and passing on lessons learned, I have had 2 NDs in my life.
One was only a few months ago when I set a trigger too light. I was practicing with my son and a friend. The muzzle was pointed in a safe direction, but still gave me a sick feeling.
Another was while duck hunting. I went up on a bird while hunting in a pond with a soft, sticky bottom. I missed the first shot and as I swang on the second I sank in and twisted up. I ND’d as I fell into the water. Thank God no one was with me.

 

[HingleMcCringleberry]

My take on the situation.

Know the condition of your weapon and be cognizant of the direction of your muzzle.

Loss of life is tragic even more so when it is avoidable. You are responsible for your actions. Whether you choose to have a round chambered or not, you, and only you are responsible for your actions.

 

[MoeFaux]

For me, there are absolutely accidental discharges and I believe yours would fall into that category, however they are exceedingly rare. NDs exceed ADs by a factor of many thousands, I would wager.
I define an AD as an unforeseeable mechanical failure that leads to an unintended discharge. That doesn’t absolve the handler of blame if he happens to be breaking a basic tenant of firearms safety at the moment the mechanical failure occurs and subsequently someone is killed or injured.
Basic firearms safety is multi layered so that no one can be injured unless multiple violations occur simultaneously.

I agree with this.

My father, who has never been slack about firearm safety, had an AD with a 1911 that was a designated home defense piece. He had just loaded it to return it to it's bedside station when (as he tells it) the hammer didn't stay back when he closed the slide. Rather, it fell partway down, hung up, then freed itself an instant later, falling on the firing pin and making a boom. He and my mother were both in their bedroom at the time. Needless to say, that was terrifying for both of them, and the gun was immediately locked away until it could be worked on by a professional smith. To his credit, he always had the muzzle pointed in a safe direction, but that .45 slug took a chunk of oak out of his bedpost, deflected, and punched a hole in the drywall as a vivid reminder of the moment things went sideways.

It was a fluke mechanical failure that was impossible to anticipate or prevent, but that's exactly why we have our rules.

My heart goes out to all those who are affected by this tragedy, and I'm grateful that it's spurred discussions like this one to remind us all how very, very important those four little rules are to all of us.

Stay safe out there.

 

[dtrkyman]

I primarily guided bowhunters for the first 10 or so years of my guiding, when I did guide a gun hunter it was for turkeys, I carried the gun, offended a few here and there but so be it!

Recent years I have guided some rifle hunts, gun never has one chambered until set up to shoot!!!

Another guide I know had a client send one through the fire wall of his truck and out the radiator, OMG!!! Multiple folks to blame in that situation!

Hunted with a friends dad once who pointed his gun in the direction of everyone within shooting distance and acted like it was no big deal, first and last time!

 

[GSPHUNTER]

I primarily guided bowhunters for the first 10 or so years of my guiding, when I did guide a gun hunter it was for turkeys, I carried the gun, offended a few here and there but so be it!

Recent years I have guided some rifle hunts, gun never has one chambered until set up to shoot!!!

Another guide I know had a client send one through the fire wall of his truck and out the radiator, OMG!!! Multiple folks to blame in that situation!

Hunted with a friends dad once who pointed his gun in the direction of everyone within shooting distance and acted like it was no big deal, first and last time!

The guides I have hunted with require action to be open and chamber empty, muzzle down. Chamber a round only when you are completely out of hunting rig.