OnX hypocrisy

[WKR]

I completely agree with @WKR. Got no problem with an outfitter leasing ranches that gives access to otherwise inaccessible public. But not when that outfitter is the voice of OnX - championing the landlocked access cause. Siegfied is talking out of both sides of his mouth. A quality I don't care for in anyone.

Bingo! I guess some people understand this and some don't.

 

[Billy Goat]

Bingo! I guess some people understand this and some don't.

Or people understand the game and know that it doesn't matter if you like it or not.

To play you gotta participate. Doesn't mean you can't work to change things while you are doing it.




What I'd like to know is how much are they donating to groups that are championing access issues? If they are simply saying they support it, yet aren't sending funding I'd find that concerning. Or if they were finding areas that did allow access, and gaining a lease or contract on those areas and then closing the access, that's what would be 2 faced.


Participating in a system so you don't hafta sit out isn't the worst thing in my opinion. Things aren't frequently as cut and dry as people make them out to be. I could be wrong on what Eric's actual interests/intentions are, but just because someone who owns a business that is based on outdoor activities and does things to participate in those activities, I don't see a reason to bring out the pitchforks.



Fact is, if he wasn't leasing that surrounding area, someone else would. The only factor he has in it is possibly driving up the cost, however I can guarantee that if he wasn't leasing it, it wouldn't be unlocked and available to the public. He could spend his money on leasing elsewhere, do a guiding service or whatever it is and compete, but why? That's just kinda a poor investment. Wouldn't you get the best ground/conditions for your money that you could?


Hate the game not the player.

 

[5MilesBack]

I hate the overcrowding we have during archery elk season and will champion against it every chance I get, yet I'm out there every year contributing to those crowds. Is that hypocritical? I'm certainly not going to sit it out, or not take advantage of any opportunities I find. I see it the same way in this OnX example. Who on earth wouldn't take advantage of landlocked lands if you could get access to them........even if you are a champion for creating more access.

 

[TSAMP]

This isnt really all that complex of an issue in my eyes. But it could use more detail regarding the land and terms of sale/lease.

Personally the fact nobody has addressed it from the OnX side ( as far as I am aware) is more concerning in my eyes.

The guy could have bought any ranch. He choose one that has direct access to landlocked public. Or maybe he leased it, who knows? Maybe they have big plans to open it up? Personally this parcel no doubt has increased value being located where it is, I wonder why someone would want to lease it to a guy like Eric who should be trying to open it up and likely decreasing value to any remaining parcels adjoining it.

Normally I'd say you don't owe the general public any explanations, but if your parading around as a public figure and your core business is about what it is, you do.

no doubt a response won't matter to some here, but to many it goes along way.

 

[OregonSteeler]

Didn't read this whole thread but....

If someone's "honey hole" is so top secret and nobody knows about it, how would Onx delineate that as a point of interest and a hot spot over multiple users?

 

[stretch866]

Thought about this before and it’s been discussed on other forums… what is stopping on-X from gathering meta data, ie finding and boiling down all the elk pins or wallow pins in a said unit. Would be very easy for them and would essentially boil down years of knowledge into a few glances to know exactly where to look. Also what is stopping them from doing it? How tempting would it be if you were a onx employee with a good draw tag or even an otc in say Co… just a few minutes and you would know exactly where to focus your efforts

I do database marketing and there is no way this is not happening already. You could run the query, get the information you need and nobody in your company would even know unless someones looking over your shoulder.

 

[stretch866]

GIAIA is woke. They have a whole page dedicated to DIE. I'm sick of that garbage, it's destroying our country.

Sure grandpa, let's get you back to bed.

 

[T28w]

I hate the overcrowding we have during archery elk season and will champion against it every chance I get, yet I'm out there every year contributing to those crowds. Is that hypocritical? I'm certainly not going to sit it out, or not take advantage of any opportunities I find. I see it the same way in this OnX example. Who on earth wouldn't take advantage of landlocked lands if you could get access to them........even if you are a champion for creating more access.

Not really the same. This isn’t a matter of not hunting but more of hunting in a way that you have openly paraded against.

It’s just bad optics and screams do as I say, but not as I do.

 

[WRO]

Eric Siegfried and his company onX have vocally positioned themselves as champions for opening access to landlocked public land.

On Broken Country, Presented by onX Hunt, Explores Landlocked Public Lands and the American Experience | onX Maps

The latest short film from onX Hunt takes viewers on a journey through the American West’s landlocked public lands—places that the public is unable to access because they are surrounded by private land boundaries.

www.onxmaps.com

Landlocked Public Lands: onX and TRCP Improve Access | onX

Americans are locked out of 9.52 million acres of public lands. So we’ve partnered with TRCP to help increase access. Find out more.

www.onxmaps.com

Access and Stewardship Initiatives at onX

As a company, we invest in efforts that increase access to open spaces and promote stewardship of public lands. We believe the more that people experience their own off-the-beaten-path awakening, the more likely they are to care about protecting these places for the future.

www.onxmaps.com

Eric Siegfried and his company Cottonwood Outfitters have discretely obtained guiding permits to 10,000 acres of federal land and unknown acres of state lands and leased surrounding private lands to block access. This Bureau of Land Management land near Locate, MT is just one of many prime chunks Eric controls access to. Hunt Quietly will be highlighting other pieces in coming weeks.
The hunting industry has a long history of using the money we spend on their products to make it so we have fewer places to use the products. For other examples, watch this talk:

Understand who you’re buying from, and spend wisely!

I actually looked at the pictures from the Maury level breaking Expose finally.

Tell me you don't understand how most ranches in the west are laid out without telling me.

Nearly every ranch in the west has small inholding BLM parcels like the ones posted below.

I've been an advocate for trading these out and selling off other public lands that don't provide public value to purchase properties that do.

 

[cuerro viejo]

Sure grandpa, let's get you back to bed.

calm down Blackrock.

 

[deltadukman]

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Timely email

 

[Mikedlaw]

Or people understand the game and know that it doesn't matter if you like it or not.

To play you gotta participate. Doesn't mean you can't work to change things while you are doing it.




What I'd like to know is how much are they donating to groups that are championing access issues? If they are simply saying they support it, yet aren't sending funding I'd find that concerning. Or if they were finding areas that did allow access, and gaining a lease or contract on those areas and then closing the access, that's what would be 2 faced.


Participating in a system so you don't hafta sit out isn't the worst thing in my opinion. Things aren't frequently as cut and dry as people make them out to be. I could be wrong on what Eric's actual interests/intentions are, but just because someone who owns a business that is based on outdoor activities and does things to participate in those activities, I don't see a reason to bring out the pitchforks.



Fact is, if he wasn't leasing that surrounding area, someone else would. The only factor he has in it is possibly driving up the cost, however I can guarantee that if he wasn't leasing it, it wouldn't be unlocked and available to the public. He could spend his money on leasing elsewhere, do a guiding service or whatever it is and compete, but why? That's just kinda a poor investment. Wouldn't you get the best ground/conditions for your money that you could?


Hate the game not the player.

I'm not exactly sure where I stand on this issue, and haven't researched it enough to know if the OP's statements are accurate or not. That being said I hate the argument that if he wasn't doing it, someone else would. Right is right and wrong is wrong, it doesn't matter what everyone else does. It comes down to integrity.

 

[Tod osier]

Total aside... but in thinking about this situation I sure won't be labeling dropped waypoints on public land in OnX anymore. Maybe coded waypoints, but maybe not even then.

 

[cuerro viejo]

Total aside... but in thinking about this situation I sure won't be labeling dropped waypoints on public land in OnX anymore. Maybe coded waypoints, but maybe not even then.

If you have GPS on…. Your phone is already collecting data on you, for sale by every app you agreed to their service terms.

 

[KurtR]

Onx has increased my access to private land 10 fold and has also increased finding the public land here that was not marked. If they want to steal my waypoints I label them as how many geese or ducks are there and have them color coded by year to make it easy for them.

 

[svivian]

Damn you guys all need hobbies to occupy your time.... like hunting

With that said, I take anyone who runs a massive company as seriously about their commitments as those celebrities who yell about climate change and how we need to do our part while they turn around and jump on their private jet.

I don't care what an individual does with their money but actions speak louder than words and how seriously ill take it.

Good for him for spending money the way he wants, cant say I wouldn't do the same.

 

[HuntQuietly]

What I'd like to know is how much are they donating to groups that are championing access issues? If they are simply saying they support it, yet aren't sending funding I'd find that concerning. Or if they were finding areas that did allow access, and gaining a lease or contract on those areas and then closing the access, that's what would be 2 faced.

What, pray tell, organizations are you referring to?

Hint: your answer will indicate if you have a true grasp of the problem - aka the outdoor manufacturer/non-profit RRR “advocacy” circle jerk. Or need to go back and listen to Matt who explains it rather nicely.

 

[Steve300xcw]

This is the epitome of hypocrisy and why I have "unsubscribed" from as many hunting companies as I possibly can. Hunters need to start realizing these companies are not serving their customer base whatsoever. Siegfried's landlocked public lands has been public knowledge for at least a year and OnX has remained silent. He removed Cottonwood Outfitters from his LinkedIn about a year ago, so clearly he is trying to not get caught. GoHunt actively sells "hunts" and landowner tags. They are the king of spot blasting. They may or may not be whoring out user data, but it would be hard to imagine they don't. I don't believe for a minute that company staff isn't looking at users' waypoints for scouting. I'm not sure GAIA isn't just the hiking/biking/mountaineering world's version of OnX and it's maps are far inferior. I could give a damn if they are "woke". Give me a break. Realtree, and countless other companies are taking our dollars and leasing up hunting properties. Sitka is sponsoring professional snowboarders and paying into Land Trust. Why? They are out to "make content" and expand their customer base. This isn't about conservation, or telling a story, it's about the bottom line.

I am 35 and have been a lifelong Idaho hunter since age 12. Amazingly, I hunted, and harvested game, before Google Earth and OnX existed. Unbelievable, I know, but it can be done. What has become of hunters is quite literally sickening. We are so damn gear driven, shortcut hungry, and hopelessly addicted to dopamine hits on our 'gram, that we've forgotten why we're outside. Somehow we've been fooled into thinking recruiting more hunters and buying more gear is conservation. Pint nights aren't saving mule deer either.

Not long ago, I was able to put in homework and do some door knocking to gain access on private lands. I showed my appreciation by bringing landowners cases of beer, homemade bread, sending Christmas Cards, and gift cards. They genuinely appreciated it. When OnX came on scene, it made finding a landowner accessible to the masses. It used to take a bit more work and dedication than that. As OnX was in everybody's hands, more people were finding access, and poor hunter behavior was ruining opportunity on property after property. Landowners' phones were ringing off the hook, and before long, outfitters came with checkbooks. OnX is only a map service, but it certainly contributed to these factors. I have gone from well over 10,000 acres of private lands I had access to on a handshake basis, to zero in 2 seasons. For a while, I thought, at least OnX is involved in opening up more PUBLIC lands and that can be good for me too. As it turns out, it's about good press, not good sportsmanship.

What is becoming rapidly apparent is that even the most highly regarded hunting companies doing "conservation" are not providing a net positive for any of us. Sure, we can buy all sorts of Gucci hunting pants and matching underwear, but at what cost? The industry has become so beholden to the almighty dollar and is ever hungry for more. Today's hunter has become the biggest group of lookalike fanboys that can't sniff bull poo if it lands in their nostrils. Campsites are full of matching camo cowboys pouring over their cell phones talking about their new gear and their next gadget. EVERYBODY wants to get some gold nugget of strategy from Corey Jacobsen, Randy Newberg or Cam Hanes instead of putting in the hard work for themselves.

We're all pushing each other off of a dwindling pile of tags, on ever shrinking huntable acres to mimic our favorite hunting influencers. I don't begrudge the hard working, non-resident hunter who has come to my state for the last 20-30 years to enjoy their time on public lands respectfully. As a matter of fact, I feel bad that many have lost their opportunity.

What I do hate, and I mean hate, is the "adventure hunting" model so espoused by our hunting heroes who are killing far more than they can eat. Influencers are coaching guys how to maximize their points in every western state and have created a Taylor Swift Ticketmaster scenario out of Idaho non-resident license sales. Why? Drum up the hype, and sell more gear.

The truth is, much of the hunting here has gotten pretty damn awful. Just an hour outside of Boise, lies unit 39. Once a gem of an area with thriving mule deer and good hunting, has now become a mess of hunters on every ridge and creek bottom. The roads and trails are a nitro circuis of dirkbikes and ATV's. Five years ago, I could buy a second non-resident tag MID SEASON. Now it's gone in 60 seconds. We're told it's not good enough to hunt in 1 state. The result? My hunting partners and I can no longer have our out of state dads or close relatives get a tag every once in a while. Again, OnX is just feeding this machine, as are many other companies.

So for those of you asking? "What other map service do I use?" The choice is up to you. For me? I'm willing to start making sacrifices and simplify how I hunt. I generally big game hunt in one portion of one unit. I don't need a GPS or a map. I can find my way in the dark, in dense fog. I know how to build a fire and keep myself alive if I don't make it to camp before dark. My friends and family can wait for me to get out to hear from me. The InReach usually stays behind. Since unsubscribing to influencers and subscribing to the wilderness, I have become a better hunter and a far better woodsman. Quite honestly, it is refreshing.

For those of you that this falls on deaf ears, so long. If all this fuss is what hunting is, then I'm not a hunter. From now on, I will chose to Hunt Quietly.

Hell of a first post

 

[Tod osier]

If you have GPS on…. Your phone is already collecting data on you, for sale by every app you agreed to their service terms.

Big difference being generically tracked when the tracker has no idea what you are doing vs. giving them a waypoint for "blood trail" or an exhaustive index of wallows in a drainage.

I'm happy to pay for being tracked and gaining the benefit in the use of the tool, but not happy to pay to have my very specific waypoints potentially sold or even viewed.

 

[Szwampdonkey]

There is nothing you can get from Onx that you cant get for free with something as simple as google maps. I have NO IDEA why people pay for Onx, laziness i guess? Onx does not have some sort of proprietary magic data just people are lazy and dont want to access so they pay Onx too, then complain about Onx. Modern day people problems.