Nutrition heresy: update, I was wrong

[Marbles]

We are way off in the weeds here, BUT..... There is also an argument to be made for hunger in hunting. Anecdotal claims (and some clinical research) support the statement that hunger attunes the senses, including better focus, hearing, and vision. The lack of food, the lack of food availability, channels the senses towards the aim of obtaining sustenance.

For me, I dont want the suffering of backpack hunting to be amplified by being super hungry the whole time haha. But man it sounds like being hungry sure sharpens you up when the next meal is feeding just out of bow range.

Interesting, and I can see that. One of the unexpected benefits of cutting calories has been simpler foods tast good to me. Example, I once would need salid to be completely coated in dressing to eat it. I now can eat an entire large bowel with a teaspoon of dressing and still enjoy it.

Something interesting I learned today is that studies have shown higher pain tolerance with the use of profanity. I find this interesting because positive self talk rarely helps me push through, cussing at myself for being a little bitch normal does. Of course, the specter of failure has always been more motivating to me than the prospect of success, so I my just be wired wrong.

I grew up riding mountain bikes, and still ride some. Not significant distances though. My longest ride (since I was 17) is only 50 K. So, 250 K a week is impressive to me.

 

[Old_Norther]

When I was working in Germany I had a friend (Germans love to road bike) that his weekly prescription for a beginner would be a 3 day rolling structure.

Day 1- 80k
Day 2- 100k
Day 3- 150k

Repeat ad-Mortem. He wasn’t joking.

His volume on a week was just circus level. Plus he was running. Tri-guys are something else.

Also helped that Berlin was flat. Like, makes Kansas look like Idaho flat. So you could ride forever without worries

 

[JohnnyB]

I now can eat an entire large bowel with a teaspoon of dressing and still enjoy it.

Are you originally from California?

 

[Marbles]

Are you originally from California?

Lol, no.

 

[Old_Norther]

@Marbles Here is the excel file I was talking about. Harris Benedict is one of the formulas used to calculate BMR, there are others but they function basically the same way.

I start with this calculator and then try to supply as much of the carbohydrate category with unprocessed foods as I can, filling in the gaps with cooked food.

For me, I know I dont need quite as many carbs as the Macro generator reccomends. I air on the very light side.

EDIT:::::: Looks like I cant post the file. PM me your email and Ill send it

 

[Marbles]

@Marbles Here is the excel file I was talking about. Harris Benedict is one of the formulas used to calculate BMR, there are others but they function basically the same way.

I start with this calculator and then try to supply as much of the carbohydrate category with unprocessed foods as I can, filling in the gaps with cooked food.

For me, I know I dont need quite as many carbs as the Macro generator reccomends. I air on the very light side.

EDIT:::::: Looks like I cant post the file. PM me your email and Ill send it

Thank you for the file. According to that I should be getting more protein than I have set as my minimum. It puts me at 172 g, I have been targeting a minimum of 130 g (1.6 g/kg based on 80 kg and rounded up to the nearest 10). Where as it is giving my 2.2 g/kg based on 78 kg (average weight for the past few days).

I was listening to the Valley to Peak podcast and he was talking about how after 5 hours of activity one should eat protein to avoid consuming muscle mass. I found it interesting, but have no intention of changing. Not because I think it is untrue, but because I'm fine with it as long as my performance over time is what I want. If it changes, then I will look at changing what I'm doing.

 

[5MilesBack]

I now can eat an entire large bowel with a teaspoon of dressing and still enjoy it.

There is no way I'm eating bowel......large or small.......dressing or no dressing.....let alone enjoying it. LOL.

But as for your original post.......this is "kind of" how I always operate. I pretty much do a fast every night from after dinner until lunch time the next day. That is generally ~18 hours as I rarely ever eat breakfast......just have my coffee every morning. So most all of my calories come in a 6 hour window every day from just lunch and dinner. I rarely snack. I also have some coffee immediately after lunch. For reference, I'm 6'6"/220.

So for elk hunting, I'm always operating at a calorie deficit and average a pound lost every day. And I always feel great through elk season (month of Sept). However, I do have a hard time going more than about 40 hours without any food at all. Although a few years ago I went 41 hours after eating dinner one night, then shooting a bull the next morning, packing him out, then crashing for the night, and then packing up my wall tent camp in the rain the next morning, and not eating until 1pm that afternoon. I did pretty well on just coffee.

 

[Marbles]

There is no way I'm eating bowel......large or small.......dressing or no dressing.....let alone enjoying it. LOL.

LOL. Bowl, thank you.

That said, while not my favorite food, tripe is not bad. I think a large bowel is only good for sausage casings though.

 

[Sapcut]

What food items are poorly digested by humans, poorly absorbed by humans, and overall poorly efficient in providing nutrition in humans but humans still are encouraged to eat anyway and why?

 

[Marbles]

What food items are poorly digested by humans, poorly absorbed by humans, and overall poorly efficient in providing nutrition in humans but humans still are encouraged to eat anyway and why?

Cellulose, aka plants that are low in fat or starch.

Why eat them? Nutrients. Plant sterols. Increased satiety (if trying to reduce calorie intake).

What was the answer you are looking for?

 

[Marbles]

@Old_Norther I think I have to reconsider the value of Garmin's VO2max metric. In part because it must reach a max that cannot be improved upon and in part because the way to improve it after the initial easy gains is not the correct training for long endurance.

I picked up Training for the New Alpinism, and The Uphill Athlete. Only just getting started, and I already knew to target low heart rates for endurance training, but, there is much of my knowledge that is being refined already.

 

[*zap*]

Long duration, frequent, low intensity workouts with a few short high intensity workouts each month. Maybe 90% low - 10%high for aerobic workouts. Do that for a few years....and reap the benefits.

 

[Sapcut]

Cellulose, aka plants that are low in fat or starch.

Why eat them? Nutrients. Plant sterols. Increased satiety (if trying to reduce calorie intake).

What was the answer you are looking for?

Vegetables and fiber….I can’t figure a reason to eat it because of things mentioned. I’m just wondering why the seemingly general consensus would be to eat things that give you reasons not to.

Quality meat, eggs and fish give infinite more of two of the three reasons you mentioned.

Why would you want to ingest plant sterols?

 

[Marbles]

Vegetables and fiber….I can’t figure a reason to eat it because of things mentioned. I’m just wondering why the seemingly general consensus would be to eat things that give you reasons not to.

Quality meat, eggs and fish give infinite more of two of the three reasons you mentioned.

Why would you want to ingest plant sterols?

Meat, eggs, and fish provide different nutrients. Humans need both, veganism is a foolish extreme and not eating plants is an equally silly extreme. Both are fashionable at the moment in various groups though.

Animal products lack some vitamins, but contain others that plants do not. Well, if one eats raw meat and all the organs that may not be true, but for one, it is not tested, and for two most people who have the luxury of the carnivore diet are squeamish first worlders who avoid eating organs.

Even if one focuses on calories only as nutrients, some plant products rival the energy content of animal products.

I left out bowel health, but that is another reason to consume high fiber food.

As for plant sterols, one wants to eat them specifically because they compete with cholesterol for absorption and probably reduce cardiovascular disease.

As for satiety, no animal products in isolation do not provide more. Though if satiety is the goal, one must be selective regarding plant products consumed.

Another reason to eat plants is efficiency, it is much cheaper to produce 100 calories from plants than it is from animals. There is a reason the majority of people in the world do not consume significant amounts of meat daily.

 

[Anglo-American]

So, the ground for this thinking was layed as a teen reading T. E. Lawrence's Revolt in the Desert. He talked about how the Bedouin would eat a single massive meal before traveling 4 plus days without eating. Similarly, natives in the Amazon have been known to travel on foot without eating (Bruce Olsen's book Bruchko).

Many carnivores eat in a bolus pattern while traveling great distances between substantive meals (wolves, bears, big cats).

The biological system has a decent bit of plasticity to it, so we adapt to what we are exposed to.

All this leads me to a question. Has the orthodoxy of 3 meals a day and snacks to provide fuel for activities (pre/post workout, Etc.) left use a slave to food? If trying to break a speed record, sure suck down carbs continually. However, should we train to function on body stores of energy and be less dependent on having food available all the time?

I've not dug into the literature to see if this is supported with evidence, however I like being untethered from food. Granted, on a recent 26 mile run I had to get a snack at 18 miles. However, I was able to run 11 miles in the mountains (4500 ft of elevation gain) only carrying water and having only consumed 39 calories in the proceeding 12 hrs. This is a significant change from when I snacked all day long on a hike. I am not at a fitness level where I could meaningful compare times and experiment. However, I find the fact that my calculated VO2 Max on Garmin held level to be an indication that performance was not significantly degraded by not "fueling up" for the run, especially considering that this was only my second mountain run.

Eat fat, burn fat.

No one should be snacking constantly... except possibly children.

 

[Sapcut]

Based on my experience for quite awhile eating very little fiber and very few things other than wild or quality animal products......

Fiber for bowel health is a myth, I have zero digestive issues until I eat something other than fat or protein. I've spent a good portion of my early life eating lots of fruits and vegetables and very little sugar in a "healthy" household. The results were I was constantly constipated and told to eat more fiber like everyone else is told....to this day.

Fat and protein are light years more satieting than salads (hence vegetarians having to eat all the time to get even close to satiety and get even close to nutrient quantity). Carnivorous animals do not.

Plants have precursor vitamins that inefficiently, if at all, are converted into the real "cursor" vitamins in our bodies. Ruminants eat the precursors in plants, convert into "cursors" and we can then very efficiently absorb those nutrients by eating the meat.

Not sure I want to decrease my cholestorol with plant sterols. Cholesterol is vital for existance, sterols are not.

Yes, plants are cheaper than getting good quality meat. Manufactured foods in boxes are too. Both being less quality.

And based on my experience I am constantly aware and looking for symptoms or characteristics of defiencies of any kind. As of today, I couldn't be more satisfied or feel better.

 

[Marbles]

Based on my experience for quite awhile eating very little fiber and very few things other than wild or quality animal products......

Fiber for bowel health is a myth, I have zero digestive issues until I eat something other than fat or protein. I've spent a good portion of my early life eating lots of fruits and vegetables and very little sugar in a "healthy" household. The results were I was constantly constipated and told to eat more fiber like everyone else is told....to this day.

Fat and protein are light years more satieting than salads (hence vegetarians having to eat all the time to get even close to satiety and get even close to nutrient quantity). Carnivorous animals do not.

Plants have precursor vitamins that inefficiently, if at all, are converted into the real "cursor" vitamins in our bodies. Ruminants eat the precursors in plants, convert into "cursors" and we can then very efficiently absorb those nutrients by eating the meat.

Not sure I want to decrease my cholestorol with plant sterols. Cholesterol is vital for existance, sterols are not.

Yes, plants are cheaper than getting good quality meat. Manufactured foods in boxes are too. Both being less quality.

And based on my experience I am constantly aware and looking for symptoms or characteristics of defiencies of any kind. As of today, I couldn't be more satisfied or feel better.

Well, as we are talking about personal experience, my experiences are very different than yours and from my perspective significantly more valid.

As for vitamins, it depends on which ones you are talking about. Vitamin A is present in active form in liver, but there are only low concentrations in most other meat and most of that is in the inactive form.

Vitamin C is present in plants in the form used by the body. However, it is not readily available in animal products. If you are not eating raw spleen, thymus gland, and lung you will be getting inadequate amounts from meat.

Fiber is not the only aspect of bowel health, but in the complex system that is the GI tract it is certainly an element of it.

The efficiency of plant foods is important because without them most of the world starves to death. Though, A Modest Proposal would keep the privileged well fed and prevent the starvation of poor children.

 

[Sapcut]

Well, as we are talking about personal experience, my experiences are very different than yours and from my perspective significantly more valid.

As for vitamins, it depends on which ones you are talking about. Vitamin A is present in active form in liver, but there are only low concentrations in most other meat and most of that is in the inactive form.

Vitamin C is present in plants in the form used by the body. However, it is not readily available in animal products. If you are not eating raw spleen, thymus gland, and lung you will be getting inadequate amounts from meat.

Fiber is not the only aspect of bowel health, but in the complex system that is the GI tract it is certainly an element of it.

The efficiency of plant foods is important because without them most of the world starves to death. Though, A Modest Proposal would keep the privileged well fed and prevent the starvation of poor children.

I think in general it is safe to say that nutritional deficiencies manifest themselves in a host of different illnesses, ailments, sickness, metabolic hormone failures, etc etc. Of course then we know we have physical issues to address and repair.

I remember when growing up in the aforementioned household with a father being a football coach and health nut as we knew it, my father explained to me the overweight poor begging for food. I would see these fat people holding signs wanting money for food. I didn’t get it. They certainly didn’t look hungry and seemed to be able to miss a few meals and be just fine.

He assured me they were overweight but still starving for nutrition. Eating very poor nutrition due to very poor finances.

Staying alive with a low quality of life on poor nutrition is possible but thriving on a more densely nutritive animal based diet is a totally different and healthier situation.

 

[Old_Norther]

I would weigh in here, with my opinion. Vegetables as a food group are quite diverse, ill get to that. Just like animal flesh is diverse. Many primitive cultures would not eat the connective tissue MEAT portion of animals, certainly not in the mass volumes we do, but the organ meats and the fat. Fish was almost a survival only food, and pretty much dog food exclusively. They didnt know why, but we know now that the protein portion has very little nutrition. Organs have protein and vitamins, and nutrients, and bacteria.

Now for vegetables and fruit. The thing many people miss today, is that the modern pantheon of grocery foods is so new that our ancestors would be mind blown to see it. The bulk of veggies are agricultural breeding products, created selectively for a global market, and they are DELICIOUS. Our ancestors knew only what they felt after eating foods, most of them were disgusting. Today we know only what is available in the store. Are they critically necessary for health? no. Is fat, animal fat, critical for health? Oh, yes it is.

Now, enter the concept of Ligands. Almost every single vegetable fruit that grows in the earth has a ligand structure that makes humans sick. Its a survival mechanism. Consider why most cabbage was consumed in fermented form. Ever eaten a head of raw cabbage? Exactly. Why do you have to soak beans before you eat them? Ligands. These are to blame for the gas people get after eating beans.

Fermentation is a process that makes the vitamins and phytonutrients of food more accessible to the human microbiome. Animals do it by having more than one stomach.

What do you have to eat? well that depends on you. And largely depends on how you live your life. One thing that is for sure, if you eat processed foods from a bag, you will be starving yourself in a calorie surplus.

 

[Marbles]

I would weigh in here, with my opinion. Vegetables as a food group are quite diverse, ill get to that. Just like animal flesh is diverse. Many primitive cultures would not eat the connective tissue MEAT portion of animals, certainly not in the mass volumes we do, but the organ meats and the fat. Fish was almost a survival only food, and pretty much dog food exclusively. They didnt know why, but we know now that the protein portion has very little nutrition. Organs have protein and vitamins, and nutrients, and bacteria.

Now for vegetables and fruit. The thing many people miss today, is that the modern pantheon of grocery foods is so new that our ancestors would be mind blown to see it. The bulk of veggies are agricultural breeding products, created selectively for a global market, and they are DELICIOUS. Our ancestors knew only what they felt after eating foods, most of them were disgusting. Today we know only what is available in the store. Are they critically necessary for health? no. Is fat, animal fat, critical for health? Oh, yes it is.

Now, enter the concept of Ligands. Almost every single vegetable fruit that grows in the earth has a ligand structure that makes humans sick. Its a survival mechanism. Consider why most cabbage was consumed in fermented form. Ever eaten a head of raw cabbage? Exactly. Why do you have to soak beans before you eat them? Ligands. These are to blame for the gas people get after eating beans.

Fermentation is a process that makes the vitamins and phytonutrients of food more accessible to the human microbiome. Animals do it by having more than one stomach.

What do you have to eat? well that depends on you. And largely depends on how you live your life. One thing that is for sure, if you eat processed foods from a bag, you will be starving yourself in a calorie surplus.

Lots of none fermented Inupiat plant foods (and fish). There is significant diversity in traditional diets. Much of the world consumes fish, and most peoples located on large bodies of water did and do.

And yes, I have eaten entire heads of cabbage, but no, it does not cause me to have gas. Much of that is based on gut microbiome. The microbiome, if we do not over sterilize our lives, adapts over time. Plants are fermented as a preservation method (I do love kimchi), meat and eggs are also fermented in various cultures (as well as salted and dried in the west before refrigeration). The salt content was much higher than what we think of, sailors would boil salted meat in sea water to reduce its salt content.