New MT Mule Deer Rifle Season

[dirtytough]

So no Turkey season in spring? And archery elk season not during the rut correct? And no bear hunting during late may and June? And no archery, muzzleloading or any other special season during the rut, correct?

There is a big difference between archery elk in September and rifle deer in November. Huge difference.

 

[Formidilosus]

There is a big difference between archery elk in September and rifle deer in November. Huge difference.

Read what I responded to.

 

[Axlrod]

Just some random thoughts on this. I started hunting in MT in 1977. On and around my grandparents ranch in Eastern MT and in Southwestern MT both public land and a friends ranch.

The number of deer and size of bucks has declined a great deal. In E. MT it was normal to see multiple mature bucks most every time out.
In W. MT the ranch and surrounding public land held lots of Mule Deer and there were mature bucks to be had. Elk were pretty scarce, and Whitetails were too. Now the Elk and Whitetails far outnumber the Muleys. There ranch itself, which goes from the base of the mountains to a river held only Muleys- no Whitetails. Now it is all Whitetails. Haven't seen a Muley there in 20 years. We went to tree stand archery hunting for Whitetails- you see hundreds of them.

In the Tobacco Roots they did institute a 4 point or better and closed it before the rut for a couple decades. This didn't increase deer numbers, but it did allow some pretty big 3 points to survive.

The FWP relies on public comment before changing anything ( don't know how or if that works). I talked with a FWP biologist about the problems with Mule Deer, and he said:
Whenever there is public comment the number one thing people overwhelmingly want is opportunity to shoot a Mule Deer (meat hunters)
He also said:
Part of the decline is due to many years of drought reducing winter forage- Muleys are not adaptable. If their normal food supply is diminished they die, they don't eat something else or move to a different area. This is why there is no transplant programs for Muleys. The state capital, Helena is overrun with them. They shoot them to reduce populations, because if they moved them they will not adapt.

Increased competition from elk and whitetails pushes them to the fringes of their preferred habitat.

And I do believe more predators and more subdivisions are also part of the equation.

Except for mature bucks Mule Deer are DUMB. You could have a 2 week season, and everybody that wants meat, will get one.

My son and I drew limited tags a few years ago, and it was a fantastic experience. We saw a lot of deer and a few mature bucks every time out. The area across the road is general tag, and you will see less than 10 deer there most days.

I don't know what the answers are. I don't think its ever coming back anywhere near what it was.

 

[S.Clancy]

What the heck do you guys consider a "big buck"? Are you all thinking you're gonna kill a 180" buck? Cause that doesnt happen anywhere very often, even in draw units.

 

[cgasner1]

So no Turkey season in spring? And archery elk season not during the rut correct? And no bear hunting during late may and June? And no archery, muzzleloading or any other special season during the rut, correct?

I actually feel like your making my point here. I wonder why we don’t shoot turkeys and elk with a rifle that time of year seems odd. At the end of the day people who are just gonna fill a tag will if the season is 6 days or 6 months. It’s been show point restriction doesn’t work very well so why not change the weapons make people get out of the truck to hunt since they can’t use the creedmore. They could move the youth hunt to the thanksgiving weekend and give the kids a rut hunt without the orange army


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[Formidilosus]

I actually feel like your making my point here. I wonder why we don’t shoot turkeys and elk with a rifle that time of year seems odd. At the end of the day people who are just gonna fill a tag will if the season is 6 days or 6 months. It’s been show point restriction doesn’t work very well so why not change the weapons make people get out of the truck to hunt since they can’t use the creedmore. They could move the youth hunt to the thanksgiving weekend and give the kids a rut hunt without the orange army


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Why not just have seasons and tag allocations that are set based on herd health and numbers, and let people do as they please with their tag?

No matter how it is presented, the “I don’t like the rifle rut hunt” is only and solely about size of bucks. But is not about herd health or numbers.

 

[Ryansven]

Why not just have seasons and tag allocations that are set based on herd health and numbers, and let people do as they please with their tag?

No matter how it is presented, the “I don’t like the rifle rut hunt” is only and solely about size of bucks. But is not about herd health or numbers.

Heard health needs a good mix of mature bucks. A rifle season during the entire rut by no means allows that aspect in high public land areas and open country. It does promote maximum opportunity for hunters as it is, just not best management practices for overall heard health. What you keep referring to in your comments is heard numbers not necessarily heard health.

 

[MT257]

What the heck do you guys consider a "big buck"? Are you all thinking you're gonna kill a 180" buck? Cause that doesnt happen anywhere very often, even in draw units.

170"+ is a good deer. Yes the are out there every year. In the places I frequently hunt I have seen 3 or4 in the last 15 or so years. Yes they don't happen every year, but somehow they slipped through the cracks. But by shooting the younger ones that are 150" and in that 2.5 age they definately won't have a chance to get any bigger.

 

[Sioux33]

I'd be curious to know how many folks in favor of the rifle rut hunt are non-residents.

It's pretty easy to be in favor of it when it extends your season another month after your home state is wrapped up.

Hell, if it's such a good idea, maybe we should start requesting every state in the west to adopt MT's seasons.

 

[dirtytough]

Read what I responded to.

I did.

 

[S.Clancy]

170"+ is a good deer. Yes the are out there every year. In the places I frequently hunt I have seen 3 or4 in the last 15 or so years. Yes they don't happen every year, but somehow they slipped through the cracks. But by shooting the younger ones that are 150" and in that 2.5 age they definately won't have a chance to get any bigger.

A 150", two and a half year old deer is a genetic outlier and/or in absolutely fantastic habitat. Ever single buck we've shot 150" or greater in MT has been between 4.5 and 7.5. I'm sure there are 150" two year olds out there, but they are very rare.

 

[Formidilosus]

I did.

Ok. Well his statement was that he wants seasons changed so shooting animals which are dumb due to the rut doesn’t happen. If it’s the deer are “dumb” during November, and that’s the reason for no season, then so are all animals during the rut.

 

[MT257]

A 150", two and a half year old deer is a genetic outlier and/or in absolutely fantastic habitat. Ever single buck we've shot 150" or greater in MT has been between 4.5 and 7.5. I'm sure there are 150" two year olds out there, but they are very rare.

Not saying the 2.5 year old deer are 150", just seems to me I guess that there is a lot of people jacked about shooting a deer that could grow up and be something promising. Everyone is different in what a trophy is, I get it. I probably worded it poorly, but there sure seems to be a lot of younger deer such as those 2.5 year old deer being killed every year that could grow up but can't. I do think the habitat plays a role in it. Montana's growing population is going to take toll on what we have left of mule deer in this state. IMO, FWP needs better data to know what they have and resident mule deer tags should be a draw not OTC.

 

[Formidilosus]

IMO, FWP needs better data to know what they have and resident mule deer tags should be a draw not OTC.

So another state limiting the ability of people to hunt so that a few can shoot bigger bucks easier?

 

[Formidilosus]

I want to be clear- I’m not saying that wanting to shoot bigger bucks is wrong, I’m just asking why shroud it behind a BS veil of “herd health”?

 

[MT257]

So another state limiting the ability of people to hunt so that a few can shoot bigger bucks easier?

So how does an increased amount of hunters on the landscape, which I would assume leads to more deer being harvested, which I think will have an impact the number of deer to hunt make sense in the future. At some point we won’t have any mule deer to hunt.

 

[Formidilosus]

So how does an increased amount of hunters on the landscape, which I would assume leads to more deer being harvested, which I think will have an impact the number of deer to hunt make sense in the future. At some point we won’t have any mule deer to hunt.

The amount of tags are the amount of tags. Shortening seasons does not, in any state, reduce the amount of deer taken, and in fact tends to have the opposite effect.

 

[MT257]

The amount of tags are the amount of tags. Shortening seasons does not, in any state, reduce the amount of deer taken, and in fact tends to have the opposite effect.

Amount of tags for NR are capped though, not the same for residents. Taking more deer of the landscape is the issue. I mean do you feel just keep selling tags and reducing the number of deer out there to 0 is the answer? In the commision meeting one of the R6 bio's was asked about population numbers, said there was a 40% decrease(which they claimed wasn't a huge decrease) in the deer population. So allowing the same number of people to target 40% less deer is a smart move? Doesn't add up to me.

 

[cgasner1]

The amount of tags are the amount of tags. Shortening seasons does not, in any state, reduce the amount of deer taken, and in fact tends to have the opposite effect.

That is true like I said earlier the last weekend of season is still the last weekend people will always kill deer. That being said show me a state that has cut the rut out and the numbers have stayed the same those are at most 2 week seasons they cut a few days out of. Where here they need to cut more time out than most states have for the entire hunting season kinda apples to oranges on that


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[cgasner1]

Amount of tags for NR are capped though, not the same for residents. Taking more deer of the landscape is the issue. I mean do you feel just keep selling tags and reducing the number of deer out there to 0 is the answer? In the commision meeting one of the R6 bio's was asked about population numbers, said there was a 40% decrease(which they claimed wasn't a huge decrease) in the deer population. So allowing the same number of people to target 40% less deer is a smart move? Doesn't add up to me.

That 40% is kind of a shocking when I first heard it I was wondering what the normal number is. If it’s not normally like 30% so it’s not as bad as it seems but I obviously do agree it’s not sustainable


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