New Alaska Draw System Idea

LivinGood

FNG
Joined
Feb 22, 2017
Messages
46
Location
Fairbanks, AK
Long read but it's late winter so what else is there to do?

Currently, AK’s draw system is a random non-accumulating bonus point system. Applicants can put in up to a maximum of six chances (bonus points) per species. All six chances can be placed on a single hunt number (DI403x6) or split between multiple hunt numbers (up to six). Each chance cost either $5 or $10 depending on the species. $10 for bison and muskox and $5 for everything else. Since each chance cost money, that’s why it can be seen as a “bonus point”. Pay more money for more chances to win. These chances, or points, do not accumulate from year to year. Everyone starts with a clean slate each year and their luck is only increased by the number of chances they wish to pay for. Stupid simple system. Doesn’t get any more fair then random dumb luck! Now, I’m not anti non-resident by any means but, as a lifelong Alaskan, I’d be lying if I said it didn’t bother me when Jimmy from Texas moves to AK and then a year later draws a tag that I’ve been trying to draw for a decade or more. I’m aware that you don’t need a draw tag to hunt, and the vast majority of my harvest’s are not from draw tags, but they sure can be nice sometimes!

What if the chances, or points, didn’t reset each year? If an applicant puts in for six chances on a hunt and doesn’t draw, those six points carry over to the next year. The applicant puts in the following year with their bank of six points and adds in another six for a total of twelve chances at a hunt number. Assuming they don’t draw that year then they now have twelve points in their bank. This system repeats until the applicant draws a tag and then their points bank for that species starts over at zero again. The points would be species specific and the draw system would still be random. So, people who don’t want to drop the money on max chances each year still have a chance to draw a tag and their point bank still accumulates, so each year their chances get a little better also. Applicants would also have to apply each year to keep their point bank going. If someone misses a year, then their point bank goes back to zero. None of that just buying a point nonsense and not actually applying. Applicants could also split their points for a species on different hunt numbers. This system would also allow young hunters to enter the pool with a chance of drawing a tag each year while accumulating bonus points.

It seems that people are split on whether to keep the system the way it is or to implement some type of point system. But the people who want a point system never say what kind of system they want, just that we need a “Point System”. I DO NOT want a preference point system, nor should anyone. To me, this type of system is the ultimate in fairness. Everyone who puts in has a chance to draw a tag but the people who stick it out year after year get rewarded with a little bump in their luck each year. This system also does not hinder people who financially can’t put in for max chances each year and spend hundreds of dollars. This system would allow them to focus their efforts and dollars on a specific hunt number or species and each year increase their chances a bit. This system also introduces a chance to use some strategy when trying to draw a tag.


Thoughts?

Worth a proposal to the Board of Game?
 

WalterH

Lil-Rokslider
Joined
May 14, 2020
Messages
152
Interesting idea.

Surely this has been proposed and or tried somewhere else in the past? I like the idea of your chances getting better the more money you throw into the system. How to administer such a goal and design without creating a bunch of unintended consequences is a big problem to solve.

I've been throwing money in the ADFG hat in for a decade and a half to the tune of $220 a year and have one unit 13 caribou tag to show for it. I don't mind supporting the agency and fish and game management, but a little return on investment would be nice. I am getting tired of offering non-resident friends and resident friends hunting proxy draw tags (that needs to change, no proxy hunting for draw tags) advice on how to hunt the areas they have drawn that I have never been able to.

One potential down side is that with so many people ahead of new applicants with a ton of rollover chances, your first few years of applying your chances of drawing are functionally zero until you have accumulated enough rollover chances to complete with those who have been putting in for years and haven't drawn, like the 99% of residents that put in for sheep tags...
 
Joined
May 17, 2015
Messages
877
So you want it to essentially be like every other “bonus” point system where eventually you have so many tickets in the bucket that even people with 20+ years of applying have only slightly better odds. I’ve never applied in Alaska but hard pass. States that don’t have points systems need to stand strong and hold the course because I can’t think of a point system that isn’t broken to some extent


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OP
LivinGood

LivinGood

FNG
Joined
Feb 22, 2017
Messages
46
Location
Fairbanks, AK
Interesting idea.

Surely this has been proposed and or tried somewhere else in the past? I like the idea of your chances getting better the more money you throw into the system. How to administer such a goal and design without creating a bunch of unintended consequences is a big problem to solve.

I've been throwing money in the ADFG hat in for a decade and a half to the tune of $220 a year and have one unit 13 caribou tag to show for it. I don't mind supporting the agency and fish and game management, but a little return on investment would be nice. I am getting tired of offering non-resident friends and resident friends hunting proxy draw tags (that needs to change, no proxy hunting for draw tags) advice on how to hunt the areas they have drawn that I have never been able to.

One potential down side is that with so many people ahead of new applicants with a ton of rollover chances, your first few years of applying your chances of drawing are functionally zero until you have accumulated enough rollover chances to complete with those who have been putting in for years and haven't drawn, like the 99% of residents that put in for sheep tags...

People have put in proposals for a point system in the past but I don't believe a specific point system plan has been proposed. I think when most people think of a point system they think preference points which is why the topic never goes anywhere.

When your chances at some tags are already less than 1% under the current system, I dont think you can get any lower haha. Also When someone draws a tag under the current system they can't put in for that same tag the following year. Add that to their points resetting and I believe some tags will get esier to draw. Also, once someone draws a tag, they might focus their future efforts on a different tag which will also make certain tags easier to draw. Bison is one tag every ten years whether you kill a bsion or not. I think a bonus point system could make getting a bsion tag easier after a few years of people getting tags with their points bank. A lot of people will also forget to apply and lose their points that way which will even the playing field a bit.

I guess I'm envisioning that most people won't have to accumulate many years worth of points to draw a tag so their won't be a huge backlog such as a preference point system. Alaska has a lot of tag options to spread peopls choices out. Granted, a few tags get most of the attention but a lot of people will burn points on easier to draw tags more often which will keep things from getting to top heavy. And this new system is constantly in motion, with higher points holders drawing tags and resetting their points to 0 every year.
 
Joined
Apr 21, 2015
Messages
985
You must have been under a rock or in Alaska for a long time not hunting other states to still think points systems are a good thing.

Points of any type are trash. Its a system proposed by greedy folks who feel they deserve some type of credit because they've been around a while. Or States that simply want a good way to keep folks on the hook pitching in free money every year. You said it yourself; Now, I’m not anti non-resident by any means but, as a lifelong Alaskan, I’d be lying if I said it didn’t bother me when Jimmy from Texas moves to AK and then a year later draws a tag that I’ve been trying to draw for a decade or more.

If you want to apply, then do so, but please quite trying to devise a points system to benefit yourself.
 
Joined
Jun 3, 2020
Messages
689
Location
Eagle River, AK
Adfg has a hard enough time trying to regulate animals in a state that's 1/3 the size of the lower 48. We dont need to make things harder for them. I finally drew a tag after applying for 11 years. Granted I put in for lower odd hunts. Some families draw stuff every year but they might be putting in 24 chances for a moose hunt if there are 4 people in the family who hunt, maked their odds better.

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OP
LivinGood

LivinGood

FNG
Joined
Feb 22, 2017
Messages
46
Location
Fairbanks, AK
So you want it to essentially be like every other “bonus” point system where eventually you have so many tickets in the bucket that even people with 20+ years of applying have only slightly better odds. I’ve never applied in Alaska but hard pass. States that don’t have points systems need to stand strong and hold the course because I can’t think of a point system that isn’t broken to some extent


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I don't envision people having to accumulate to many years worth of points to draw a tag for most species. I don't apply in other states so I'm not familiar with all the other points systems. What other states have a random bonus point system like the one I proposed?
 
Joined
May 17, 2015
Messages
877
I don't envision people having to accumulate to many years worth of points to draw a tag for most species. I don't apply in other states so I'm not familiar with all the other points systems. What other states have a random bonus point system like the one I proposed?

Washington, Nevada, Montana to name a few. And as soon as the point system starts applicants will double or triple because nobody wants to be left behind in a points system. At some point a bonus system like you are talking about will fail because the amount of points any individual is adding each year will be completely offset by the total amount of points added to the system. In essence odds only start to go down after a few years


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Htm84

WKR
Joined
Jun 16, 2019
Messages
362
First of all. What kinda self respecting Alaskan says there’s nothing to do in late winter? This is literally the best time of year. No tourists, no seasonal work dickheads. Snows deep days keep getting longer. It was below zero up on top in turnagain today and we had a blast.
Your missing out man.

As for your main point. No. Out side of bison and musk ox all the draw is good for is close to town slam dunk hunts.
 
Joined
Mar 21, 2012
Messages
4,051
Location
Alaska
Good luck changing that…. Not to points anyhow. Also, I don’t believe it’s a Board of Game function to decide even if proposed but may be wrong.
 
Joined
Feb 12, 2022
Messages
2,069
Long read but it's late winter so what else is there to do?

Currently, AK’s draw system is a random non-accumulating bonus point system. Applicants can put in up to a maximum of six chances (bonus points) per species. All six chances can be placed on a single hunt number (DI403x6) or split between multiple hunt numbers (up to six). Each chance cost either $5 or $10 depending on the species. $10 for bison and muskox and $5 for everything else. Since each chance cost money, that’s why it can be seen as a “bonus point”. Pay more money for more chances to win. These chances, or points, do not accumulate from year to year. Everyone starts with a clean slate each year and their luck is only increased by the number of chances they wish to pay for. Stupid simple system. Doesn’t get any more fair then random dumb luck! Now, I’m not anti non-resident by any means but, as a lifelong Alaskan, I’d be lying if I said it didn’t bother me when Jimmy from Texas moves to AK and then a year later draws a tag that I’ve been trying to draw for a decade or more. I’m aware that you don’t need a draw tag to hunt, and the vast majority of my harvest’s are not from draw tags, but they sure can be nice sometimes!

What if the chances, or points, didn’t reset each year? If an applicant puts in for six chances on a hunt and doesn’t draw, those six points carry over to the next year. The applicant puts in the following year with their bank of six points and adds in another six for a total of twelve chances at a hunt number. Assuming they don’t draw that year then they now have twelve points in their bank. This system repeats until the applicant draws a tag and then their points bank for that species starts over at zero again. The points would be species specific and the draw system would still be random. So, people who don’t want to drop the money on max chances each year still have a chance to draw a tag and their point bank still accumulates, so each year their chances get a little better also. Applicants would also have to apply each year to keep their point bank going. If someone misses a year, then their point bank goes back to zero. None of that just buying a point nonsense and not actually applying. Applicants could also split their points for a species on different hunt numbers. This system would also allow young hunters to enter the pool with a chance of drawing a tag each year while accumulating bonus points.

It seems that people are split on whether to keep the system the way it is or to implement some type of point system. But the people who want a point system never say what kind of system they want, just that we need a “Point System”. I DO NOT want a preference point system, nor should anyone. To me, this type of system is the ultimate in fairness. Everyone who puts in has a chance to draw a tag but the people who stick it out year after year get rewarded with a little bump in their luck each year. This system also does not hinder people who financially can’t put in for max chances each year and spend hundreds of dollars. This system would allow them to focus their efforts and dollars on a specific hunt number or species and each year increase their chances a bit. This system also introduces a chance to use some strategy when trying to draw a tag.


Thoughts?

Worth a proposal to the Board of Game?
How is this not a preference point system?
 
Joined
Mar 8, 2014
Messages
902
How is this not a preference point system?

Bingo! It’s exactly a point system. Talk to guys who have been putting in every year since point systems have been introduced in other states, for the same tag year over year. Yeah worked well in the beginning, but eventually the system gets inflated to where your points don’t really give you an advantage if not even lowering your odds.

Stay point free AK


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Glory

Lil-Rokslider
Joined
Sep 29, 2015
Messages
245
Location
Craig, Alaska
There is lots of support for some kind of point system on the local ac level.

I would probably support it if a proposal was made that made sense.
 

dallen

Lil-Rokslider
Joined
Sep 23, 2016
Messages
111
Location
Wasilla, AK
Stick with random draw. Point systems are horrible. With random draw, you always have a fighting chance to be one of the lucky few.
 

LoggerDan

WKR
Joined
Jan 8, 2023
Messages
507
Location
AK
I thought about it, what you came up with.

I don’t want it to change.
My only complaint with the AK is that so many put in for hunts and draw that they won’t actually go and hunt.

I don’t suppose that’s as much of a problem as down outside. I would like to see a penalty for non use of a draw tag. Something like, if you don’t hunt your draw tag, you forfeit that draw next year.. But I’d have no clue how to implement that fairly. Perhaps proof of travel?
 

Legend

WKR
Joined
Jun 13, 2017
Messages
943
Long read but it's late winter so what else is there to do?

Currently, AK’s draw system is a random non-accumulating bonus point system. Applicants can put in up to a maximum of six chances (bonus points) per species. All six chances can be placed on a single hunt number (DI403x6) or split between multiple hunt numbers (up to six). Each chance cost either $5 or $10 depending on the species. $10 for bison and muskox and $5 for everything else. Since each chance cost money, that’s why it can be seen as a “bonus point”. Pay more money for more chances to win. These chances, or points, do not accumulate from year to year. Everyone starts with a clean slate each year and their luck is only increased by the number of chances they wish to pay for. Stupid simple system. Doesn’t get any more fair then random dumb luck! Now, I’m not anti non-resident by any means but, as a lifelong Alaskan, I’d be lying if I said it didn’t bother me when Jimmy from Texas moves to AK and then a year later draws a tag that I’ve been trying to draw for a decade or more. I’m aware that you don’t need a draw tag to hunt, and the vast majority of my harvest’s are not from draw tags, but they sure can be nice sometimes!

What if the chances, or points, didn’t reset each year? If an applicant puts in for six chances on a hunt and doesn’t draw, those six points carry over to the next year. The applicant puts in the following year with their bank of six points and adds in another six for a total of twelve chances at a hunt number. Assuming they don’t draw that year then they now have twelve points in their bank. This system repeats until the applicant draws a tag and then their points bank for that species starts over at zero again. The points would be species specific and the draw system would still be random. So, people who don’t want to drop the money on max chances each year still have a chance to draw a tag and their point bank still accumulates, so each year their chances get a little better also. Applicants would also have to apply each year to keep their point bank going. If someone misses a year, then their point bank goes back to zero. None of that just buying a point nonsense and not actually applying. Applicants could also split their points for a species on different hunt numbers. This system would also allow young hunters to enter the pool with a chance of drawing a tag each year while accumulating bonus points.

It seems that people are split on whether to keep the system the way it is or to implement some type of point system. But the people who want a point system never say what kind of system they want, just that we need a “Point System”. I DO NOT want a preference point system, nor should anyone. To me, this type of system is the ultimate in fairness. Everyone who puts in has a chance to draw a tag but the people who stick it out year after year get rewarded with a little bump in their luck each year. This system also does not hinder people who financially can’t put in for max chances each year and spend hundreds of dollars. This system would allow them to focus their efforts and dollars on a specific hunt number or species and each year increase their chances a bit. This system also introduces a chance to use some strategy when trying to draw a tag.


Thoughts?

Worth a proposal to the Board of Game?
The reason your concept and ever other bonus point system fails is because there are not enough tags. In order for a point system to work you must remove remove ALL of the top bonus point holders EVERY year. If you do not do this it is pretty obvious that the point creep will compound as time goes on. Simply put in high demand tags points systems are a guarantee fail.
 
Joined
Oct 5, 2015
Messages
387
Location
Alaska
You’re essentially proposing a slight variation of what has been proven to not work in just about every western state. Consider learning about the other states draw systems and their failings first.
 
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