My elk bowhunting soapbox.

[grainhog]

I counted a combined 7,563 man years of bow hunting in this thread so far

 

[Backyard]

Sounds like and is are two entirely different things and I am neither of them.

I just don't think a lot of the stuff we think is important really is...

This has got to be some kind of Rokslide record for posts before the expert argument starts


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[WVELK]

This has got to be some kind of Rokslide record for posts before the expert argument starts


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I am not sure why people want to appear to be experts, but you seem to be right. As I started my post, there are those who know far more than I and those who know far less. Either way, I bring enough to the table to help beginners. People must fill up with too much testosterone and forget the purpose behind someone creating a post or thread. Whatever you call them - posts or threads - I am old enough to not know what they are called and old enough to have taken enough bulls with archery equipment that my wife tries to give racks away as party favors around the holidays.

The purpose of my post was:

1. Remind beginners and novice to not place too much weight in what they see on You Tube when it comes to elk hunting. It can be very misleading and the hunters at times can take or claim to take shots that beginners probably should not take. I say claim because I have seen several recently where the shot is not on camera. You see the hunter walking and talking as they move in on a bull. You do not see a shot, but the hunter then says something like “we smoked him at 78 yards”. Thereafter, sometimes you see a dead bull sometimes you do not. Can hunters make those shots? Heck yes. Many. But, in my experience the first time someone from the eastern half of the United States goes elk hunting with a bow, experiences the thrill of bulls bugling and get to where they might get a shot, they come totally unhinged. I took my best friend for his first hunt years ago. He is a great hunter. He is a great shot. Tons of 3D, indoor spot, and field archery experience. I called a bull in to 30 yards and he shot the bull right in the antlers, right where he was looking the entire time as the bull approached. Would have removing his pack (which he had done), using a hip quiver (which he was) prevented this? Nope. My point is simply there a some things that can improve your chances. And, not shooting 80 plus yard is one of those things.
2. Remind beginners that you do not have to shoot with a huge pack on your back. Can some people? They sure can, especially if they are large framed. I am not. I am built like a sheep hunter, tall and lean.
My hat is off to the few above that say they go to archery tournaments with their packs and quivers on and shoot. Those guys are hunters. If they plan on hunting that way, then they should do that. Practice harder than real life, but the reality is those folks who shoot tournaments with packs on etc, are far and few between.
3. Remind beginners that back in the ice age people hunted with hip quivers, and they are very effective. Can you shoot with the quiver attached to your bow, sure can. Are you going to be as accurate AT LONG RANGE (which was the issue I was discussing), no you are not.

I will go back to reading, and hope that people will take a minute to remember that sound advise given based on experience may help people just starting to bowhunt for elk. I have taken a wide variety of animals all over the world with a bow. And, a bull elk is my favorite and takes the second, third, fourth and fifth favorite on my personal list as well. I can see the end of my elk hunting days in the front wind shield. If I can provide advise to help that 20 something, full steam ahead bowhunter who is now what I once was, then great happy to do so. He just has to ask for help and understand like others, all of my advise will not be accurate or suited for him. But, it will not be all wrong either. So before you say kinetic energy doe not matter when bow hunting, educate yourself. Anyone who says that is not an engineer or responsible bowhunter in my opinion. Just because the blades on a mechanical will open, does not mean the head and shaft will penetrate deep enough to kill a bull soon enough to insure a humane kill and quick recovery. It takes kinetic energy to push that arrow deep enough to do the job, otherwise a 35 pound bow is really comfortable to shoot so why not just use one.

Have a great day and remember the anti hunters are united and well funded. We need new outdoorsmen and women. We need unity not BSD contests.

 

[roadrunner]

This has got to be some kind of Rokslide record for posts before the expert argument starts


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[Marshfly]

Trying to figure out how my Mathews with the fixed two piece quiver full of arrows would make me more accurate than if I somehow removed it when I have never shot the bow without it...ever...not once.

If your bow is somehow less accurate with a quiver attached you need to setup your bow/stabilizers with it attached and just never take it off. Or maybe purchase a quiver designed to be as close to the riser as possible rather than using your quiver from 1995. IMHO removable quivers are kind of pointless now that we have quivers designed properly to tuck way into the bow.

 

[Smfigari]

All good 98 percent of people do. All I am saying is you will shoot better with it off since so many seem to stretch yardage today. I use a PSE HIP QUIVER FROM PROBABLY 1991. It is literally a flat piece of metal with slots for your belt to slide through. It orignally had a bracket a PSE bow quiver mounted to. I have modified mine to use the super short mathews quiver with from a few years ago. Not sure why someone doesnt make a good hip quiver for spot and stalk.

I use the total peep attachment which works really well with my Matthews short quiver and tight spot 5 arrow quiver.

 

[khunter]

1. Just because your bow will shoot fast and is capable of shooting 90 yards does not mean you can;
2. When you watch a guy take a shot at an elk on You Tube wearing a 6,500 cubic inch pack, a bino harness, and with a quiver hanging off the side of his bow keep in mind he has dramatically decreased his chances of making a good shot or even the same shot he is capable of making in his back yard. Pack weight and the quiver are changing his form and the performance of the bow. If you can, lose the pack when you get in close (I know that it not always possible). I also know that in 33 years of chasing elk, I have NEVER chased one with more than an 1,800 cubic in pack on may back. The Mountain EXO 1800 with K3 frame is my go to these days. Ask yourself do I need that big of a pack. Next, back in the day Chuck Adams and lots of other bowhunters carried a side hip quiver because they knew a quiver full of arrows changed how their bow shot. More importantly, the bow is never as accurate with the quiver on the side or you would see it at national field and 3D archery tournaments. In WFA (formerly FITA when I competed), you don’t see the archers hang one on the side of their recurves either.
3. If you have the kentic energy for good penetration, then yes you can kill elk with mechanicals. I would rather see you use them than fixed heads if you don’t know how or are unwilling to take the time to tune fixed heads. But, just because some guy shot a bull in the guts at 70 yards on You Tube and found it 3 days later does not mean, mechanicals work, he made a good shot, or that he should be proud of himself. In the vide I watched they lost all the meat and no doubt the bull suffered unnecessarily.

Okay all done here. Wish you all the very best luck.

Pretty good points overall. In particular the advice to not make long shots.

As to bow mounted quivers and advising to remove the quiver before a shot or not have a bow mounted quiver "...because they knew a quiver full of arrows changed how their bow shot" That seems to presume guys do not have a quiver full of arrows during practice. That is a largely a false premise. I and many do and should sight in and practice with a full quiver same as when hunting so this 'concern' is not valid for that situation. If I removed my quiver just before a shot my bow would would shoot differently just when accuracy counted most, not the other way around.

I would suggest ALWAYS PRACTICE with a full bow mounted quiver if hunting with a bow mounted quiver.

Many guys hunt with 6000" Cu inch packs or similar with no problems. They use the same pack to backpack to a spot and to pack out animals as they use to day hunt. That is irrelevant and not affecting shot accuracy when that pack is carrying no more than what an 1800 Cu inch pack would carry during a day hunt. I would encourage newer bowhunters to carry enough pack to take care of and start packing out that elk effectively on first trip back to camp. For me I do need that big of a pack because is is comfortable and has me ready for successful pack out and not needing two packs in camp. I practice with pack and bino harness on enough to know I shoot just as well with and without them.

Respectfully, suggesting novice hunters drop their packs while stalking is not sound advice. Quite the opposite. Dropping a pack when get in close is a fine recipe for being stranded with no equipment. Strongly recommend against, especially for the novice hunters this thread is pointed towards. Way too easy to get into the heat of the chase and have to move some distance when the initially expected shot does not materialize. Would suggest if you drop your pack when in close, PICK IT UP every time you move positions versus assuming you are only having to move such a small distance you could not possibly lose your pack. I will gladly lose track of an animal before losing track of my pack and hunting essentials.

 

[dirtshooter]

I shoot with a full quiver, if I am shooting the BH I will take them out of the quiver and shoot one by one until I'm out of arrows (mimicking the IRL situation of me flinging arrows and missing and missing and missing lol)

If I am shooting FP I keep the quiver full and just shoot with a hip quiver

 

[Johnbaldwin86]

All good 98 percent of people do.

Not sure what you're basing this off of. I live in WA and can't say I have ever seen a hunter wear a hip quiver. They're not even common at the 3D shoots I've been to.

My soapbox speach would be practice how you hunt. This includes wearing your pack and boots as well as uphill/downhill shots, uneven ground, kneeling, using cover, etc.

I would also argue dropping your pack for a stalk is generally a bad idea, at the very least take the time to drop a pin and flag it with pink or orange ribbon.

 

[WVELK]

Pretty good points overall. In particular the advice to not make long shots.

As to bow mounted quivers and advising to remove the quiver before a shot or not have a bow mounted quiver "...because they knew a quiver full of arrows changed how their bow shot" That seems to presume guys do not have a quiver full of arrows during practice. That is a largely a false premise. I and many do and should sight in and practice with a full quiver same as when hunting so this 'concern' is not valid for that situation. If I removed my quiver just before a shot my bow would would shoot differently just when accuracy counted most, not the other way around.

I would suggest ALWAYS PRACTICE with a full bow mounted quiver if hunting with a bow mounted quiver.

Many guys hunt with 6000" Cu inch packs or similar with no problems. They use the same pack to backpack to a spot and to pack out animals as they use to day hunt. That is irrelevant and not affecting shot accuracy when that pack is carrying no more than what an 1800 Cu inch pack would carry during a day hunt. I would encourage newer bowhunters to carry enough pack to take care of and start packing out that elk effectively on first trip back to camp. For me I do need that big of a pack because is is comfortable and has me ready for successful pack out and not needing two packs in camp. I practice with pack and bino harness on enough to know I shoot just as well with and without them.

Respectfully, suggesting novice hunters drop their packs while stalking is not sound advice. Quite the opposite. Dropping a pack when get in close is a fine recipe for being stranded with no equipment. Strongly recommend against, especially for the novice hunters this thread is pointed towards. Way too easy to get into the heat of the chase and have to move some distance when the initially expected shot does not materialize. Would suggest if you drop your pack when in close, PICK IT UP every time you move positions versus assuming you are only having to move such a small distance you could not possibly lose your pack. I will gladly lose track of an animal before losing track of my pack and hunting essentials.

I generally do not disagree with Khunter. Lets take a step back and talk about three kinds of elk hunting experience because I am thinking about 1 or 2 and some are thinking about the third. You have elk hunts where the beginner hires a guide and goes on a hunt. This seems to occur more often with eastern hunters. The second is where the novice sets up a base camp and hunts from it each day and it is a DIY hunt. In those situations, people may carry a large pack or just a day pack. My guess is the large pack is used more often because if they packed camp in, they probably did not carry two packs. Now I have done several DIY where we packed our camp in with horses and I would have more gear. The third is what I call true wilderness move and troll for elk. It is where your camp is pretty much on your back every day.

Under the guided hunt, all I am saying is there a day pack is probably all you need and if you can drop it as your guide is working the bull you might do it. You don’t have to wear 6,500 cu inches to get the full experience.

On scenario 2 and 3 apply, your pack may be larger and more important especially in number 3. But, it literally takes 60 seconds to drop the pack. But, if you think you can’t take 60 seconds to put it back on before you move and are going to move out of sight from the pack then yes I agree keep it on. Don’t lose it. But, I have never had a day where I or we worked a bull and I did not have time to pick my pack back up before we moved.

As for the quiver, I agree practice with it on if you are going to use a mounted quiver. I agree some people who practice with it on can shoot well. But, back to distance and taking long shots which is where I started. There is no way a novice bow hunter is going to shoot as well at lets say 50 yards with a quiver mounted to a bow versus a hip quiver. I manufactured archery equipment for 25 years. I have competed on that national and world level in FITA, NFAA, IBO and ASA (winning at all levels). I know far more about shooting than elk hunting. If we are talking 25 or 30 yards at an elk the mounted quiver is not an issue. When you back up yardage it becomes an issue. Never going to concede that point. You could use a V bar on the opposite side to help steady the bow through the shot, but the quiver does not improve your accuracy or every target archer would carry his or her arrows on their bow. They do not. They are carried in a hip quiver.

 

[bz_711]

Great points...practice exactly the same way you'll hunt...and be very realistic on your max yardage.

I tried elk hunting with quiver off on year and it was a complete shit show...particularly when you have .01 seconds to load an arrow in the heat of the moment (not to mention crawling through awful dark timber). I love shooting now with my full quiver of arrows all year round.

This time of year I also put the same loaded pack on with my hat, gloves, and rangefinder on...and try some uneven positions or get yourself breathing heavy some as well prior to shots.

I've shot an equal amount of game with fixed and mechanicals...but I've shot mechanicals for the last 12+ yrs and have shot all my elk with Mechanicals...yes I tune my bow...I just have higher confidence with mechanicals at longer range due to grouping/windage and I rarely have to track big game when hit with a mechanical.

And I also have a whisker biscuit on every bow in our house and don't see that ever changing.

Find a setup that makes you most confident and set an honest max yardage that you are 100% accurate at during practice.
Good Luck!

 

[Hnthrdr]

Practice with your quiver on and arrows in it, problem fixed. Also practice with a pack, I carry my 30lb daughter in a backpack to the bow range just about every time I shoot, she will likely be riding around with me for some day trips in Sept this fall.

I completely agree with Y-tube ruining lots of new hunters, haven’t shot at an elk over 50 yards, partially from where I hunt but also once you get much over 60 yards that arrow is in flight for a long time and lots can happen also lots of those videos teach the technique of bugling every 15ft, which will absolutely not have the intended effect 99% of the time, you will blow elk out of the country though, so if you like driving around Colorado to different drainages, than more power to you

 

[trophyhill]

Pretty good points overall. In particular the advice to not make long shots.

As to bow mounted quivers and advising to remove the quiver before a shot or not have a bow mounted quiver "...because they knew a quiver full of arrows changed how their bow shot" That seems to presume guys do not have a quiver full of arrows during practice. That is a largely a false premise. I and many do and should sight in and practice with a full quiver same as when hunting so this 'concern' is not valid for that situation. If I removed my quiver just before a shot my bow would would shoot differently just when accuracy counted most, not the other way around.

I would suggest ALWAYS PRACTICE with a full bow mounted quiver if hunting with a bow mounted quiver.

Many guys hunt with 6000" Cu inch packs or similar with no problems. They use the same pack to backpack to a spot and to pack out animals as they use to day hunt. That is irrelevant and not affecting shot accuracy when that pack is carrying no more than what an 1800 Cu inch pack would carry during a day hunt. I would encourage newer bowhunters to carry enough pack to take care of and start packing out that elk effectively on first trip back to camp. For me I do need that big of a pack because is is comfortable and has me ready for successful pack out and not needing two packs in camp. I practice with pack and bino harness on enough to know I shoot just as well with and without them.

Respectfully, suggesting novice hunters drop their packs while stalking is not sound advice. Quite the opposite. Dropping a pack when get in close is a fine recipe for being stranded with no equipment. Strongly recommend against, especially for the novice hunters this thread is pointed towards. Way too easy to get into the heat of the chase and have to move some distance when the initially expected shot does not materialize. Would suggest if you drop your pack when in close, PICK IT UP every time you move positions versus assuming you are only having to move such a small distance you could not possibly lose your pack. I will gladly lose track of an animal before losing track of my pack and hunting essentials.

In 2008, my first elk hunt, I dropped my pack to move in on the bull. Well the bull kept moving and I kept following. The encounter ended abruptly and suddenly I was searching for my pack. Panic had set in as everything looked the same. Took 3 hours of backtracking and trying to retrace my steps before I found it. Time wasted. Valuable lesson learned. In the heat of the moment you don't have time to fumble around and mark the GPS when things are happening so fast.

 

[ScreamingPotato]

In 2008, my first elk hunt, I dropped my pack to move in on the bull. Well the bull kept moving and I kept following. The encounter ended abruptly and suddenly I was searching for my pack. Panic had set in as everything looked the same. Took 3 hours of backtracking and trying to retrace my steps before I found it. Time wasted. Valuable lesson learned. In the heat of the moment you don't have time to fumble around and mark the GPS when things are happening so fast.

West Texas scrub brush, dropped my pack just to stalk over a ridge, didn't go 200 yards and still took me over an hour to find the pack. Never again lol.

 

[TradArcher]

If target shooting archers in competitions do not use a bow quiver don't they still use a weight attached to the front of their bow? A bow quiver is also a weight attached to the bow but not out front...but does the same job of stabilizing the bow.

I don't see the issue and have shot both ways and my longbows and recurves still hit the same spot. But then I've been shooting the same small bunch of bows for literally decades so there is that.

Shotguns the same, I've owned them for decades and only shoot those and I am accurate.

Its fun to swap around shooting different things but that can mess you up for hunting....unless you shoot a ton and I mean like all the time you are at the range.

So you gotta adapt to what your lifestyle will be and how your chosen weapons fit into that...or become your lifestyle, etc.

 

[Backyard]

If target shooting archers in competitions do not use a bow quiver don't they still use a weight attached to the front of their bow? A bow quiver is also a weight attached to the bow but not out front...but does the same job of stabilizing the bow.

I don't see the issue and have shot both ways and my longbows and recurves still hit the same spot. But then I've been shooting the same small bunch of bows for literally decades so there is that.

Shotguns the same, I've owned them for decades and only shoot those and I am accurate.

Its fun to swap around shooting different things but that can mess you up for hunting....unless you shoot a ton and I mean like all the time you are at the range.

So you gotta adapt to what your lifestyle will be and how your chosen weapons fit into that...or become your lifestyle, etc.

I wouldn’t say that a bow mounted quiver is equivalent to a stabilizer. I actually shoot slightly right (couple inches at 30) with a quiver. So I sight in with one loaded, and practice that way all year.


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[magtech]

I shoot ever day in august from 60 to 80 yards, once a week out to a 100. Never taken the quiver off. Always wearing a bino harness and half the time with my full pack on, half the time without. Maybe OP isnt a great shot.

When i am cinched up on the waist belt i feel like it helps stabilize my core more. This pack is at full hunting weight of 55+ lbs right now.

Do i miss at 60... uhhh no but im not claiming i hit bulleyes all the time either. 80 my groups just open up more, but i still hit the target. Past that it still opens up but not terrible.

Now, would i take a broadside at an elk at 60, yes... if the shot is a good one that i feel will be successful. Will i shoot past that. Doubtful. But that's me.

Theres plenty of elk walking around today with broadheads in them from some guys 20 yard terrible shot. I think the major problem is people are people and do people things.

20 yards ...100 yards. The number isn't as important as realizing that the problem is the unprepared hunter, not the shot distance.

 

[BAKPAKR]

I have been away from bow hunting for several years but I decided to get back into it and recently got a Mathews Lift 33. When shooting to 60 yards, to figure out what sight tape to use, I was surprised at how long it took the arrow to get to the target. An animal could do a lot of moving between release and impact.

 

[wtrbrdm]

As a first year bow hunter, I thought I was set but nooooooooo.

Single pin sight at 20...no more.....check
Carry single arrow and leave quiver at camp....check
Ditch the new Kuiu camo pack and carry a bright pink Hello Kitty pack for locating....check

In all seriousness, as a new bow hunter, I appreciate the OPs post and the counterpoints. Quiver or no quiver, practice how you hunt. We do that with gun play and I've only shot with my loaded quiver on the range. I've definitely seen all of those long shot videos. I also definitely know what I feel comfortable shooting at this first year, and it probably won't go far beyond that even with more practice in the off season.

 

[timekiller13]

Practice how you hunt, hunt how you practice.

I have always shot with my quiver off. So that’s how I hunt.

I practice shooting with my pack on.

I practice out to 80 yds. My absolute max hunting range is 60 yds and that’s if everything is perfect. 45 is my more realistic yardage. But I practice at longer distances because it makes me more confident with shorter shots.

I try to practice different scenarios/angles. My favorite thing to do is a “cold shot.” I put on all my hunting clothes, boots and pack, then I go jog around the yard until my heart rate is up and I’m breathing heavy. I then grab my bow, pick a random distance, and shoot one shot.