MK5 HD vs NX8 . . Thoughts?

[Formidilosus]

Correction factors:


Rule of thumbs to get close first, and then how to get your actual correction factor for your gun specifically.


Standard base (average gun)=

100- 0
200- .5
300- 1
400- 2
500- 3
600- 4


So what happens when you have a combo that shoots faster than 2800’ish fps or slower than 2,500’ish with a low BC? General rule is “Bad Gun”, “Average Gun”, “Good Gun”.

Average is the standard above.

Bad= Add .5 mils past 300 to the base.

Good= Take .5 mils off the base past 300 from the base.

How I did @grappling_hook 270 combo is to use the corrections. The BC is .4, but the MV is above 2,900’ish. That means is a “good gun”. He gave 480 yards, base is “2.8 mils”, but it’s a “good gun”, so take .5 mils off. The correction is “elevation 2.3 mils”. How well does it work? The actual correction is 2.2 mils at 5K DA. That’s a .1 mil error= 1.7 inches. Having never shot the rifle, didn’t put it into a calculator, and with 5’ish seconds of getting the range/gun info, I would have killed any big game animal on earth.


If it’s a “Bad Gun”. That is low MV, and/or low BC, add .5 mils to the base. Do not let the numbers overwhelm you. This takes less than 30 minutes to have a solid handle on it with paper practice.

Think critically: Who has a higher chance of killing an animal given all else being equal- a person that needs to look at a drop chart for both wind and elevation adding that time to make the shot? Or a person that can do it in their head in less time than it takes to chamber a round?

 

[TX_Diver]

Elevation. The idea that you’re going to be able to pull a kestrel or ballistic app out for every shot on animals is ludicrous… Unless you give up ton of opportunities. That’s not my goal. My goal is to be able kill every animal I see regardless of distance or time. And once you decide to shoot, every single thing that pulls you out of the scope, decreases the likelihood of killing that animal, or increases the likelihood of a rodeo or losing the animal with a wound.

Reducing as many variables as possible increases the hit rate. However, you have the time that the animal gives, and the time that it takes you personally to make the shot. What this is about is decreasing the amount of time you need to make a shot. The below (and the corrected versions) will you get you within .1 mil out to 600’ish yards with the vast majority of gun combos.


Memorize a base.

This is mils

100- 0
200- .5
300- 1
400- 2
500- 3
600- 4

That’s your base. Notice, every 100 yards is a mil. That means every 10 yards is .1mil. That’s critical.

Now, take the above and apply it. Target at 530 yards. Take the first number and take 2 off= “3”. Then the last two becomes the second number, “3”. The drop is 3.3 mils.

Round up or down as appropriate for the last two numbers.


416= 2.2 mils
373= 1.7 mils
564= 3.4 mils
310= 1.1 mils
598= 4.0 mils


The base works for standard rounds- 2,600-2,800fps MV with BC’s between .4-.6. That’s most gun/bullet combos. However, it doesn’t cover them all.

I'd put a bunch of data from Ballistic AE into a spreadsheet yesterday to calculate some drops to 800 for comparing a few different bullets.

.308 178 ELD-M at 2750fps is within .1 Mil out to 600 between Ballistic AE and the math you posted. I haven't loaded/shot any to verify, but the fact that the quick & dirty math gets me to about 2" of what the app says is extremely interesting.

Interesting system that I was not familiar with. Thanks for posting!

 

[Formidilosus]

Then you can tweak the base for your gun. Put your gun info and current atmospherics into your ballistic app, and see what the correction needs to be. For the last hunt of mine, I used a rifle with a .6 BC, and at 2,820fps MV at 3K FT DA. The correction for it was minus .4 mils past 400 yards which kept it within .1 mils until almost 900 yards. This mattered, because I had a fleeting chance on an elk that ran and stopped right after a buddy killed one. I was already looking in my binos, ranged where I knew it would have to slow down to go up a chute- 644 yards, dialed 4 mils using the correction, and as soon as it stopped put it into the chest. It’s on video. You can not physically look at an app or a drop card, even if it were open laying next to you in the time that I took the shot.

Now I’m not saying that people should be trying to kill quickly moving animals on brief pauses at longer ranges, nor am I saying that you shouldn’t look at actual dope and wind if you have time. I am saying that an optimal solution is one that is linear and consistent, tasks stack and flow directly into the next, and that balances speed with acceptable precision.

This fall year I and seven others killed game animals at 267, 257, 204, 167, 168, 378, 402, 612, 378, 910, 620, 644, 373, 287, 328, and 457. Only the 910 did a drop chart get used. I actually track and log every opportunity for time, position and range an animals. Of those animals, over half would not have allowed time to check a chart or input into a calculator.
All of those animals were a first round hits in the chest. That’s 8 shooters with 7 different rifles, with 5 different elevations, and 4 different wind brackets. Four of those (IIRC), a second animal was killed after the first by another, not using their rifle; yet they were able to make a correct elevation and wind call using the above system.

 

[Formidilosus]

Putting it on the timer under stress in broken mountain terrain, that no one has shot on, on vital sized targets (12”), with shooters/hunters from just barely trained all the way to National champion multi gun and LR competitors: mil/mil, FFP scopes that actually hold zero and work correctly using the above systems for close to mid range (0-600+/-) has no equal. Literally some of the most ardent and arguably best MOA shooters are at a minimum twice as long to see a target, range it, figure the correction, and get a hit. That’s minimum. The average even for very good shooters practiced on MOA is 3-4 times as long as those shooters when practiced on mils. And while yes, the MOA correction like TK posted does sorta work, I have never seen someone apply it quickly and consistently in the field under stress- they always just guess at it.

 

[woods89]

Then you can tweak the base for your gun. Put your gun info and current atmospherics into your ballistic app, and see what the correction needs to be. For the last hunt of mine, I used a rifle with a .6 BC, and at 2,820fps MV at 3K FT DA. The correction for it was minus .4 mils past 400 yards which kept it within .1 mils until almost 900 yards. This mattered, because I had a fleeting chance on an elk that ran and stopped at right after a buddy killed one. I was already looking in my binos, ranged where I knew it would have to slow down to go up a shoot- 644 yards, dialed 4 mils using the correction, and as soon as it stopped put it into the chest. It’s in video. You can not physically look at an app or a drop card, even if it were open laying next to you in the time that I took the shot.

Now I’m not saying that people should be trying to kill quickly moving animals on brief pauses at longer ranges, nor am I saying that you shouldn’t look at actual dope and wind if you have time. I am saying that an optimal solution is one that is linear and consistent, tasks stance and flow directly into the next, and that balances speed with acceptable precision.

This fall year I and seven others killed game animals at 267, 257, 204, 167, 168, 378, 402, 612, 378, 910, 620, 644, 373, 287, 328, and 457. Only the 910 did a drop chart get used. I actually track and log every opportunity for time, position and range an animals. Of those animals, over half would not have allowed time to check a chart or impair a calculator.
All of those animals were a first round hit in the chest. That’s 8 shooters with 7 different rifles, with 5 different elevations, and 4 different wind brackets. Four of those (IIRC), a second animal was killed after the first by another, not using their rifle; yet they were able to make a correct elevation and wind call using the above system.

Thanks for explaining all this. I'm going to have to play around with this. I managed to get ahold of an older mildot 3-9 Swfa last summer so I'm getting my first exposure to mils with my 223.

My main hunting rifle has an Moa scope, and while I have a system for it that works, it's nowhere near as intuitive.

 

[Formidilosus]

If you have .1 mil drift with 5mph does that equate to .2 mils with 10mph at 100 yards?

Correct. But that is for full value winds. And you can divide.

What I generally suggest in the beginning which works just fine to 600’ish is the wind bracket, MPH divided by no more than half, and full value winds, half value, and no value.

You have a 5mph gun:

1). Range is 400 yards (base .4 right off the bat)

2). 10 mph wind ( 5 goes into 10 twice. So .4x2= .8 mil.

3). Left to right, full value

Correction is left .8 mils




Same gun and range but different wind value:

1). Range is 400 yards (base .4 right off the bat)

2). 10 mph wind ( 5 goes into 10 twice. So .4x2= .8 mil.

3). Left to right, half value (divide .8 by 2= .4 mils)

Correction is left .4 mils





Same scenario with different wind speed:

1). Range is 400 yards (base .4 right off the bat)

2). 7 mph wind ( 5 goes into 7 1.5 times (ish). So .4x1.5= .6 mil.

3). Left to right, full value

= left .6 mils




… And so on and so forth.



It takes some practice on paper to get it down, but it isn’t hard if you follow the flow above, and it works.

 

[Jimbee]

Correct. But that is for full value winds. And you can divide.

What I generally suggest in the beginning which works just fine to 600’ish is the wind bracket, MPH divided by no more than half, and full value winds, half value, and no value.

You have a 5mph gun:

1). Range is 400 yards (base .4 right off the bat)

2). 10 mph wind ( 5 goes into 10 twice. So .4x2= .8 mil.

3). Left to right, full value

Correction is left .8 mils




Same gun and range but different wind value:

1). Range is 400 yards (base .4 right off the bat)

2). 10 mph wind ( 5 goes into 10 twice. So .4x2= .8 mil.

3). Left to right, half value (divide .8 by 2= .4 mils)

Correction is left .4 mils





Same scenario with different wind speed:

1). Range is 400 yards (base .4 right off the bat)

2). 7 mph wind ( 5 goes into 7 1.5 times (ish). So .4x1.5= .6 mil.

3). Left to right, full value

= left .6 mils




… And so on and so forth.



It takes some practice on power to get it down, but it isn’t hard if you follow the flow above, and it works.

Thanks, I really appreciate all the useful information you post, especially on reloading. Any tips on shooting form to spot your shots? I recently acquired a Tikka 223 SL and am shooting as much as possible, which isn't much, currently.

 

[Formidilosus]

Thanks, I really appreciate all the useful information you post, especially on reloading. Any tips on shooting form to spot your shots? I recently acquired a Tikka 223 SL and am shooting as much as possible, which isn't much, currently.

Have you read the “equipment versus practice” thread I started?

 

[Jimbee]

Have you read the “equipment versus practice” thread I started?

Yes, I'm fortunate to have a 100 yard shooting range on my way home from work and am planning on practicing the shooting drill you described when there's enough daylight and I get some ammo reloaded. The 55 grain ammo I have doesn't group very well.

 

[wysongdog]

Great post and info guys. Thank you
What about a March scope thrown in there?

 

[tdhanses]

Correction factors:


Rule of thumbs to get close first, and then how to get your actual correction factor for your gun specifically.


Standard base (average gun)=

100- 0
200- .5
300- 1
400- 2
500- 3
600- 4


So what happens when you have a combo that shoots faster than 2800’ish fps or slower than 2,500’ish with a low BC? General rule is “Bad Gun”, “Average Gun”, “Good Gun”.

Average is the standard above.

Bad= Add .5 mils past 300 to the base.

Good= Take .5 mils off the base past 300 from the base.

How I did @grappling_hook 270 combo is to use the corrections. The BC is .4, but the MV is above 2,900’ish. That means is a “good gun”. He gave 480 yards, base is “2.8 mils”, but it’s a “good gun”, so take .5 mils off. The correction is “elevation 2.3 mils”. How well does it work? The actual correction is 2.2 mils at 5K DA. That’s a .1 mil error= 1.7 inches. Having never shot the rifle, didn’t put it into a calculator, and with 5’ish seconds of getting the range/gun info, I would have killed any big game animal on earth.


If it’s a “Bad Gun”. That is low MV, and/or low BC, add .5 mils to the base. Do not let the numbers overwhelm you. This takes less than 30 minutes to have a solid handle on it with paper practice.

Think critically: Who has a higher chance of killing an animal given all else being equal- a person that needs to look at a drop chart for both wind and elevation adding that time to make the shot? Or a person that can do it in their head in less time than it takes to chamber a round?

Thanks for this but quick question, I find it’s not accurate for my gun. 300wsm shooting berger 215’s at 2963ft/s.

100 - 0
200 - .3
300 - .9
400 - 1.5
500 - 2.1
600 - 2.8

I’ve shot out to 1300 and am on, I set my DA to 5k ft.

So lets use my above, it’s not hard to memorize the above rounding up the mils or just memorizing a dope chart.

Now I’m not a competitive shooter and just a hunter so quick ref that is relatively close is all that’s needed but if one can remember the base above why not just verify and remember?

Now I think the below would be fine

100 - 0
200 - .5
300 - 1
400 - 1.5
500 - 2
600 - 3

 

[Formidilosus]

Thanks for this but quick question, I find it’s not accurate for my gun. 300wsm shooting berger 215’s at 2963ft/s.

100 - 0
200 - .3
300 - .9
400 - 1.5
500 - 2.1
600 - 2.8

I’ve shot out to 1300 and am on, I set my DA to 5k ft.

So lets use my above, it’s not hard to memorize the above rounding up the mils or just memorizing a dope chart.

Now I’m not a competitive shooter and just a hunter so quick ref that is relatively close is all that’s needed but if one can remember the base above why not just verify and remember?

Now I think the below would be fine

100 - 0
200 - .5
300 - 1
400 - 1.5
500 - 2
600 - 3

That would work. Memorizing works as well. The big part is having a way to near instantly being able to make corrections on the fly with changing ranges.

 

[grappling_hook]

@Formidilosus Awesome, thanks! I appreciate your generosity in sharing all that. I’m going to spend a bit of time getting a better handle on the BCs of the bullets I use, memorize the base brackets, and will then give it a try!

 

[Outdoorsman12b]

Correction factors:


Rule of thumbs to get close first, and then how to get your actual correction factor for your gun specifically.


Standard base (average gun)=

100- 0
200- .5
300- 1
400- 2
500- 3
600- 4


So what happens when you have a combo that shoots faster than 2800’ish fps or slower than 2,500’ish with a low BC? General rule is “Bad Gun”, “Average Gun”, “Good Gun”.

Average is the standard above.

Bad= Add .5 mils past 300 to the base.

Good= Take .5 mils off the base past 300 from the base.

How I did @grappling_hook 270 combo is to use the corrections. The BC is .4, but the MV is above 2,900’ish. That means is a “good gun”. He gave 480 yards, base is “2.8 mils”, but it’s a “good gun”, so take .5 mils off. The correction is “elevation 2.3 mils”. How well does it work? The actual correction is 2.2 mils at 5K DA. That’s a .1 mil error= 1.7 inches. Having never shot the rifle, didn’t put it into a calculator, and with 5’ish seconds of getting the range/gun info, I would have killed any big game animal on earth.


If it’s a “Bad Gun”. That is low MV, and/or low BC, add .5 mils to the base. Do not let the numbers overwhelm you. This takes less than 30 minutes to have a solid handle on it with paper practice.

Think critically: Who has a higher chance of killing an animal given all else being equal- a person that needs to look at a drop chart for both wind and elevation adding that time to make the shot? Or a person that can do it in their head in less time than it takes to chamber a round?

How do you deal with the .5 to 1 mil between 200-300 yards? For example. Range of 260. Assume you just use .5 mils instead of .1 mil?

 

[Formidilosus]

How do you deal with the .5 to 1 mil between 200-300 yards? For example. Range of 260. Assume you just use .5 mils instead of .1 mil?

.8 mil.

From 200 at .5 mil to 300 at 1 mil, it’s .1 mil every 20 yards instead of every ten.

 

[Dobermann]

... after the second time sliding and the rifle bashing himself in the face from the Gun Bearer, it went on the side of the pack which then had multiple heavy impacts when strapped to the side of the pack and slipping. Low and behold, the rifle had lost zero to the point that it couldn’t hit a deer at 300.


Scopes should hold zero, there is no excuse for them not to.

@Formidilosus: Picking up on this - out of interest, what''s your preferred way to carry a rifle and why?

 

[Formidilosus]

@Formidilosus: Picking up on this - out of interest, what''s your preferred way to carry a rifle and why?

Stone Glacier rifle carrier.

 

[npm352]

I've only used the MK5. I have a 3.6x18 on my 6.5cm and an illuminated 3.6x18 on my 7mm rem mag.

I decided after shooting a Vortex I wanted a better set up for dialing. (I used Leupold since childhood just holding over). I talked to a buddy heavy into PRS matches and told him I wanted a set-up that if I missed I would know it was my fault and not my equipment's. He recommended the MK5. I haven't used the other, but love the MK5 and recommend it.

 

[BRTreedogs]

Wind brackets

A wind bracket is a certain full value speed of wind in MPH that drifts the bullet .1 mil per 100 yards.

For example-

Wind holds for a 338 Lapua with 300gr Berger-

100- .1
200- .2
300- .3
400- .4
500- .5
600- .6
Etc.



Wind holds for a 223 with 77gr TMK-

100- .1
200- .2
300- .3
400- .4
500- .5
600- .6
Etc.


Those are the base number, and they do not change for any chambering. The difference is that the 223 drifts that much with a 4mph full value wind, the 338 drifts that much in an 8 mph full value wind. This allows one to have the exact same wind call/wind process with every chambering and rifle, the only difference is what wind speed causes the drift.


For normal chamberings with MV’s between 2,400’ish and 2,900’ish FPS, and BC’s between .3-.7 G1, the first number of your bullets G1 BC is the MPH that for that gun. You can round up or down.

For instance, a G1 BC of .612 with a MV of 2,750fps, has a wind bracket of 6 miles per hour. So a full value (straight right to left, or left to right wind) will drift this gun/bullet .1 mils per hundred yards.

Muzzle velocity and environment effects this a bit. For grappling_hook’s example he was faster than 2,900fps, and I guessed at the BC at .4 (it’s actually .409). I am also at 5,000ft density altitude- those two things combined, that is higher MV and higher DA, gives his example a 1mph advantage.


Brackets are not used for absolute precision because you’re not getting that with wind anyways, all the weather meter does is give you what it’s doing at the shooter, which you can learn to feel and judge without the meter… not that you shouldn’t use one. And brackets usually start wandering from the .1 mil per 100 yard path somewhere between 600-700. But, to ensure you have the correct MPH for your gun, take your app set it to 600 yards with your gun, set the wind direction to 90° then change the wind speed in MPH until at 600 yards it says you need .6 mil correction. That MPH is the bracket. That’s the basics.




The difference between brackets with mil and MOA isn’t just not needing the ballistic program, it’s the flow. The way the brain works, and the way it thinks about numbers. Yes, you can work a system for MOA, but it isn’t clean and it doesn’t come nearly as quickly as mils.

Elevation. The idea that you’re going to be able to pull a kestrel or ballistic app out for every shot on animals is ludicrous… Unless you give up ton of opportunities. That’s not my goal. My goal is to be able kill every animal I see regardless of distance or time. And once you decide to shoot, every single thing that pulls you out of the scope, decreases the likelihood of killing that animal, or increases the likelihood of a rodeo or losing the animal with a wound.

Reducing as many variables as possible increases the hit rate. However, you have the time that the animal gives, and the time that it takes you personally to make the shot. What this is about is decreasing the amount of time you need to make a shot. The below (and the corrected versions) will you get you within .1 mil out to 600’ish yards with the vast majority of gun combos.


Memorize a base.

This is mils

100- 0
200- .5
300- 1
400- 2
500- 3
600- 4

That’s your base. Notice, every 100 yards is a mil. That means every 10 yards is .1mil. That’s critical.

Now, take the above and apply it. Target at 530 yards. Take the first number and take 2 off= “3”. Then the last two becomes the second number, “3”. The drop is 3.3 mils.

Round up or down as appropriate for the last two numbers.


416= 2.2 mils
373= 1.7 mils
564= 3.4 mils
310= 1.1 mils
598= 4.0 mils


The base works for standard rounds- 2,600-2,800fps MV with BC’s between .4-.6. That’s most gun/bullet combos. However, it doesn’t cover them all.

Correction factors:


Rule of thumbs to get close first, and then how to get your actual correction factor for your gun specifically.


Standard base (average gun)=

100- 0
200- .5
300- 1
400- 2
500- 3
600- 4


So what happens when you have a combo that shoots faster than 2800’ish fps or slower than 2,500’ish with a low BC? General rule is “Bad Gun”, “Average Gun”, “Good Gun”.

Average is the standard above.

Bad= Add .5 mils past 300 to the base.

Good= Take .5 mils off the base past 300 from the base.

How I did @grappling_hook 270 combo is to use the corrections. The BC is .4, but the MV is above 2,900’ish. That means is a “good gun”. He gave 480 yards, base is “2.8 mils”, but it’s a “good gun”, so take .5 mils off. The correction is “elevation 2.3 mils”. How well does it work? The actual correction is 2.2 mils at 5K DA. That’s a .1 mil error= 1.7 inches. Having never shot the rifle, didn’t put it into a calculator, and with 5’ish seconds of getting the range/gun info, I would have killed any big game animal on earth.


If it’s a “Bad Gun”. That is low MV, and/or low BC, add .5 mils to the base. Do not let the numbers overwhelm you. This takes less than 30 minutes to have a solid handle on it with paper practice.

Think critically: Who has a higher chance of killing an animal given all else being equal- a person that needs to look at a drop chart for both wind and elevation adding that time to make the shot? Or a person that can do it in their head in less time than it takes to chamber a round?

All this should be in a sticky in the long range forum as well please.
Or article or something easier to reference.

 

[Pronghunter]

Bump. This was such a great thread.