MK5 HD vs NX8 . . Thoughts?

[Formidilosus]

So you think people in the real world commonly find themselves in a scenario where they have an unknown rifle/ammo and need to “on-demand” approximate (ie guess) elevation and windage on a critical target?

No. One is intuitive, easy and faster, so much so that a ballistics program isn’t required. Corrections and holds are simple and easy to do on the fly without having to go back to an app, and do so under stress. The other isn’t.

 

[grappling_hook]

and will be very close on elevation out to 600 by just knowing approximate MV and which bullet.

Scope discussion aside, what's the trick to doing this? You're saying I can just tell you an MV and bullet, and you can give a highly accurate estimate of what the drop will be without referencing a chart/app/card? Like we could be in the field and I'd say "I'm shooting a 130gr Interlock from my .270 win at 3050 fps MV and shooting a target at 480 yards, what will my drop be?" and you'd have a solid answer?

 

[Formidilosus]

Scope discussion aside, what's the trick to doing this? You're saying I can just tell you an MV and bullet, and you can give a highly accurate estimate of what the drop will be without referencing a chart/app/card? Like we could be in the field and I'd say "I'm shooting a 130gr Interlock from my .270 win at 3050 fps MV and shooting a target at 480 yards, what will my drop be?" and you'd have a solid answer?

Elevation 2.3 mils
5mph wind bracket.

 

[Formidilosus]

At my current atmosphere.

 

[grappling_hook]

Quick wind approximation methods work exactly the same for mil and MOA, it’s been covered.

For MOA, typical practice is 0.5 MOA/100 yards.

Just curious, why is that typical practice? I have mine set up for 1MOA at 100, 2MOA at 200, etc; seems easier just to double the wind and go whole MOAs for quick/easy wind holds.

 

[Formidilosus]

@grappling_hook


That was sub 5 seconds to do. I did not reference anything- no app, no drop chart.

 

[grappling_hook]

Elevation 2.3 mils
5mph wind bracket.

Suggest reading/resources so I can learn to do that?

 

[Tahoe1305]

This is my favorite thread ever. I can’t even remember what the original question was…

oh yeah it is about choosing between two scopes!

In all seriousness I have enjoyed it….but it has been all over the place.

Is the OP even alive anymore????

 

[BBob]

Suggest reading/resources so I can learn to do that?

I suspect it's simple memorization, shoot enough different crap and it sticks in your noggin

I remember visualizations of my various turrets, shoot them enough and you remember what to dial for what what gun and yardage. I shot one rifle so much (MOA) that I can loan it out and still recite what to dial to a shooter only knowing the yardage.

There is/was an article on SnipersHide that does explain a system one of their schools use to quickly know what the approximate come ups for students rifles will be. It was simple enough that I believe you could memorize the system. Take a look and see if you can find it. Mby this or something like it is the Form's secret. Ha ha!

 

[woods89]

Suggest reading/resources so I can learn to do that?

Interested as well. I have a system that will get me into vitals inside 400 without tech, and with a 100 yd zero. But it's not foolproof, and I'm pretty sure like has been said, pressure could wreak havoc on it.

 

[tdhanses]

Yeah i’d also like to know this quick in your head method for elevation and wind, can never have too many options based of the same info.

 

[BBob]

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[Formidilosus]

It’s not weaponized math- that takes way too long and can’t be done on the fly. It’s also not rote memorization.

The wind is wind brackets, that’s pretty well known. The elevation is a base constant with a correction that I’ve not seen anywhere else.


Give me a bit and I’ll write it.

 

[Formidilosus]

Wind brackets

A wind bracket is a certain full value speed of wind in MPH that drifts the bullet .1 mil per 100 yards.

For example-

Wind holds for a 338 Lapua with 300gr Berger-

100- .1
200- .2
300- .3
400- .4
500- .5
600- .6
Etc.



Wind holds for a 223 with 77gr TMK-

100- .1
200- .2
300- .3
400- .4
500- .5
600- .6
Etc.


Those are the base number, and they do not change for any chambering. The difference is that the 223 drifts that much with a 4mph full value wind, the 338 drifts that much in an 8 mph full value wind. This allows one to have the exact same wind call/wind process with every chambering and rifle, the only difference is what wind speed causes the drift.


For normal chamberings with MV’s between 2,400’ish and 2,900’ish FPS, and BC’s between .3-.7 G1, the first number of your bullets G1 BC is the MPH that for that gun. You can round up or down.

For instance, a G1 BC of .612 with a MV of 2,750fps, has a wind bracket of 6 miles per hour. So a full value (straight right to left, or left to right wind) will drift this gun/bullet .1 mils per hundred yards.

Muzzle velocity and environment effects this a bit. For grappling_hook’s example he was faster than 2,900fps, and I guessed at the BC at .4 (it’s actually .409). I am also at 5,000ft density altitude- those two things combined, that is higher MV and higher DA, gives his example a 1mph advantage.


Brackets are not used for absolute precision because you’re not getting that with wind anyways, all the weather meter does is give you what it’s doing at the shooter, which you can learn to feel and judge without the meter… not that you shouldn’t use one. And brackets usually start wandering from the .1 mil per 100 yard path somewhere between 600-700. But, to ensure you have the correct MPH for your gun, take your app set it to 600 yards with your gun, set the wind direction to 90° then change the wind speed in MPH until at 600 yards it says you need .6 mil correction. That MPH is the bracket. That’s the basics.




The difference between brackets with mil and MOA isn’t just not needing the ballistic program, it’s the flow. The way the brain works, and the way it thinks about numbers. Yes, you can work a system for MOA, but it isn’t clean and it doesn’t come nearly as quickly as mils.

 

[Jimbee]

Wind brackets

A wind bracket is a certain full value speed of wind in MPH that drifts the bullet .1 mil per 100 yards.

For example-

Wind holds for a 338 Lapua with 300gr Berger-

100- .1
200- .2
300- .3
400- .4
500- .5
600- .6
Etc.



Wind holds for a 223 with 77gr TMK-

100- .1
200- .2
300- .3
400- .4
500- .5
600- .6
Etc.


Those are the base number, and they do not change for any chambering. The difference is that the 223 drifts that much with a 4mph full value wind, the 338 drifts that much in an 8 mph full value wind. This allows one to have the exact same wind call/wind process with every chambering and rifle, the only difference is what wind speed causes the drift.


For normal chamberings with MV’s between 2,400’ish and 2,900’ish FPS, and BC’s between .3-.7 G1, the first number of your bullets G1 BC is the MPH that for that gun. You can round up or down.

For instance, a G1 BC of .612 with a MV of 2,750fps, has a wind bracket of 6 miles per hour. So a full value (straight right to left, or left to right wind) will drift this gun/bullet .1 mils per hundred yards.

Muzzle velocity and environment effects this a bit. For grappling_hook’s example he was faster than 2,900fps, and I guessed at the BC at .4 (it’s actually .409). I am also at 5,000ft density altitude- those two things combined, that is higher MV and higher DA, gives his example a 1mph advantage.


Brackets are not used for absolute precision because you’re not getting that with wind anyways, all the weather meter does is give you what it’s doing at the shooter, which you can learn to feel and judge without the meter… not that you shouldn’t use one. And brackets usually start wandering from the .1 mil per 100 yard path somewhere between 600-700. But, to ensure you have the correct MPH for your gun, take your app set it to 600 yards with your gun, set the wind direction to 90° then change the wind speed in MPH until at 600 yards it says you need .6 mil correction. That MPH is the bracket. That’s the basics.




The difference between brackets with mil and MOA isn’t just not needing the ballistic program, it’s the flow. The way the brain works, and the way it thinks about numbers. Yes, you can work a system for MOA, but it isn’t clean and it doesn’t come nearly as quickly as mils.

If you have .1 mil drift with 5mph does that equate to .2 mils with 10mph at 100 yards?

 

[prm]

If you have .1 mil drift with 5mph does that equate to .2 mils with 10mph at 100 yards?

According to JBM ballistics it does at sea level. To about 600 yds anyway then it needs another .1. I like having rules of thumb. Gives you an informed estimate. Pretty cool.

 

[Nukepwr]

With those options I would choose mk5hd. I have both, the nx8 2.5-20 lives on my bergara b14r as well as a nx8 4-32 on rimx. The mk5hd is on a origin/proof 6cm. The eyebox is just a lot more favorable on the mk5 and I feel like I dont strain as much being behind it for extended amounts of time. Glass is a wash on the two. If this were between the atacr and mk5hd may be a different story, and zco would win easily. Never used an LHT so I have no point of reference.

 

[pyrotechnic]

If you have .1 mil drift with 5mph does that equate to .2 mils with 10mph at 100 yards?

Yes,
Wind drift is linear with respect to wind speed. It is not with respect to distance, although linear approximations with angular measurements such as the "mph gun" can be close enough for practical purposes.

 

[Formidilosus]

Elevation. The idea that you’re going to be able to pull a kestrel or ballistic app out for every shot on animals is ludicrous… Unless you give up ton of opportunities. That’s not my goal. My goal is to be able kill every animal I see regardless of distance or time. And once you decide to shoot, every single thing that pulls you out of the scope, decreases the likelihood of killing that animal, or increases the likelihood of a rodeo or losing the animal with a wound.

Reducing as many variables as possible increases the hit rate. However, you have the time that the animal gives, and the time that it takes you personally to make the shot. What this is about is decreasing the amount of time you need to make a shot. The below (and the corrected versions) will you get you within .1 mil out to 600’ish yards with the vast majority of gun combos.


Memorize a base.

This is mils

100- 0
200- .5
300- 1
400- 2
500- 3
600- 4

That’s your base. Notice, every 100 yards is a mil. That means every 10 yards is .1mil. That’s critical.

Now, take the above and apply it. Target at 530 yards. Take the first number and take 2 off= “3”. Then the last two becomes the second number, “3”. The drop is 3.3 mils.

Round up or down as appropriate for the last two numbers.


416= 2.2 mils
373= 1.7 mils
564= 3.6 mils
310= 1.1 mils
598= 4.0 mils


The base works for standard rounds- 2,600-2,800fps MV with BC’s between .4-.6. That’s most gun/bullet combos. However, it doesn’t cover them all.

 

[Lawnboi]

Iv tried to wrap my head around wind brackets for minutes like I would mils but I can’t. With mils it’s easy. It’s not a one size fits all approach but Iv found it works well out to 600 yards or so. I don’t have the experience shooting really long to tell anyone if wind brackets work out there but generally my understanding is when you get farther out those margins as mentioned above become more of an issue. Iv got one moa scope left, but from here on I wouldn’t buy it if it’s not in mils. Call me special but I like Christmas tree reticles too…

Iv got an nx8 Iv used quite a bit. It’s been a good scope, and will likely live out its life on top of a hunting rifle. Many of the complaints above are valid when it comes to eye box, parralax and high mag problems. That said it is absolutely usable and for the price I paid I doubt I can find better. No it’s not a 3000$ atacr or 4000$ or whatever they cost ZCO.

Scope problems suck. I don’t have time or capital to buy and test a bunch of high end optics. People can call me what they want but I seek advice from those who do test scopes when making my decision. As of now a few of those individuals have not let me down in the slightest. I’d like to give an mk5 a go some day, and will be the first to post up if any of my nightforce scopes take a crap.