Meat hauler in CO - Need help

Horse leasers have a different thing going on, sombrero does the same thing as well as another guy in my area. They have somewhat of a different thing but they are not supposed to pack meat if there is a permitted guide in the area that gives them permission. The guy in my area that leases horses to hunters as well as myself will call me and ask about dropping horses for hunters in my permit area. Although he can outfit the stock that is where his stuff ends. He isn't supposed to do any more than that,


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If an outfitter isn't overwhelmed with his clients he/they will usually be more than happy to break away to pack meat for you, they know it builds goodwill plus it's extra unplanned $$ in their pocket - Of course most depends on the outfitter you're talking to but the one I worked for years ago would allow me to pocket the cash for this as long as I was taking care of business to his satisfaction - Wranglers AND Outfitters don't normally make nearly as much as the general public "thinks" they do and extra money for working folks is nearly ALWAYS appreciated

take this as "good advice" ... always take good care of your meat and mark your trail to it well, FROM THE INCOMING PERSPECTIVE
 
After reading this I just get the feeling that its a racket for the outfitter. It seems un-American to make it illegal to help a guy out that you meet on the trail. How long do I have to know a guy to be able to help him pack out his animal or gear? Days, years,?? I really don't understand how this got passed into law in our capitalist free-market country. So if you're an outfitter (actually Thee outfitter) in an area, you can charge whatever you want to pack meat and the people using the National Forest are obligated to pay it.
 
After reading this I just get the feeling that its a racket for the outfitter. It seems un-American to make it illegal to help a guy out that you meet on the trail. How long do I have to know a guy to be able to help him pack out his animal or gear? Days, years,?? I really don't understand how this got passed into law in our capitalist free-market country. So if you're an outfitter (actually Thee outfitter) in an area, you can charge whatever you want to pack meat and the people using the National Forest are obligated to pay it.[/QUOTE
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I'm pretty sure you can help him you just can't accept payment of any kind. I believe the idea of the law is to keep people from making money off public lands without paying their fair share, much like firewood permits and Christmas tree permits. If it was unregulated and anyone with horses could pack people or gear in or out it would be a disaster in certain areas.
 
Ya you can pack out for anyone you want, whether you know them or not but you cannot take money or trade. That's just how it is, outfitters pay a pretty decent amount of money for their permits and usage days. If anyone could go in and pack into an area and guide or pack gear then how would there be any sort of regulation in one area or another. There would be 90 outfitters in trophy units and none in non trophy OTC units. This isn't un-American and look at Outfitters as small business owners trying to make a living. If you were a licensed electrician but anybody could come in and wire up a house in ur area would you be a little mad if an un licensed guy came into the house you were wiring and decided he was gonna wire up the kitchen on a Saturday cause you weren't there? You paid ur dues to get licensed, and all that stuff but Joe Blow just had a set of wire strippers and some wire nuts and started wiring, then got paid let's say $10 less an hour than you. Same sort of deal just cause someone has pack animals doesn't mean they should be able to come in and take money out of an outfitters pocket. Outfitters are licensed, bonded, insured and pay for permits. That could be upwards of $10,000 they pay a year to operate on forest.


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IMO game retrieval should be a seperate issue. I see a lot of people who just want someone to pack an animal out of they kill one but can't find an outfitter who has the time to do it or a price that is fair.

If they can't make a distinction between game retrieval and other services then yeah I think they need to make it open to anyone. There are only a certain number of hunters in trophy units so there's no way you are going to get all the outfitters to go to those units. There wouldn't be enough business to go around. If someone has a strong work ethic and wants to make extra money I don't see a reason they shouldn't be allowed to charge people to pack out some animals on the weekends. I feel the same way about ALL industries. In your example I think it's only fair to allow someone who doesn't have a license to install wiring at the discretion of the person hiring them. So if someone is willing to pay for a licensed electrician they can but if someone wants to save money and hire someone who is not certified that should be ok too. This is assuming we are talking about a building that could not be a danger to public.

At the end of the day it's not going to have a big impact on outfitters if someone else is able to retrieve game on the weekends. My guess is that you are too busy on weekends packing guys in and out to even keep up with all the animals that get killed. It sure would be cool for some college kid with a backpack to be able to make a little side money while also potentially helping hunters keep game from spoiling. And I thought that was the principle of what our country is built on.

Seems like CPWD would be on board with game retrieval too since it is a crime to let meat spoil.
 
IMO game retrieval should be a seperate issue. I see a lot of people who just want someone to pack an animal out of they kill one but can't find an outfitter who has the time to do it or a price that is fair.

If they can't make a distinction between game retrieval and other services then yeah I think they need to make it open to anyone. There are only a certain number of hunters in trophy units so there's no way you are going to get all the outfitters to go to those units. There wouldn't be enough business to go around. If someone has a strong work ethic and wants to make extra money I don't see a reason they shouldn't be allowed to charge people to pack out some animals on the weekends. I feel the same way about ALL industries. In your example I think it's only fair to allow someone who doesn't have a license to install wiring at the discretion of the person hiring them. So if someone is willing to pay for a licensed electrician they can but if someone wants to save money and hire someone who is not certified that should be ok too. This is assuming we are talking about a building that could not be a danger to public.

At the end of the day it's not going to have a big impact on outfitters if someone else is able to retrieve game on the weekends. My guess is that you are too busy on weekends packing guys in and out to even keep up with all the animals that get killed. It sure would be cool for some college kid with a backpack to be able to make a little side money while also potentially helping hunters keep game from spoiling. And I thought that was the principle of what our country is built on.

Seems like CPWD would be on board with game retrieval too since it is a crime to let meat spoil.

tell me what you believe a fair price is? Personally I have guys on call just for game retrieval, I have many people who let me know the time frame they will be hunting is so I have an idea of when they may need me as well as where they are planning on being so I can coordinate with them if I have a camp
In the area.

And I'm not really understanding your "if the building isn't a danger to the public" can you give me an example of a building that wouldn't put the public in danger? Also roughly 25% of hunters that kill actually call for game retrieval it's really not a huge business for us. But all the hunters I do pack out for I try to help out as much as possible and build a relationship with them. This is all a touchy subject as I haven't seen many guys get in trouble for packing out with backpacks it's usually the guys with pack animals that get hit. Personally if you know a college kid that wants to pack out animals on his back for hunters for some extra cash, tell him to bring his backpack and I'll pay him to pack out game for me and then he won't have to worry about getting in trouble at all cause it will be legal. I bet if any college kid or even high school kid wanted to pack game out on their backs all they gotta do is call about any outfitter and tell them what they wanna do an they will be thrown on the payroll. Most people that do ask for horses to be used are either really deep in the woods, are worn out and killed the last few days and just don't want to do it, or older and don't have the backs to do it anymore.


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I love the Colorado Wilderness areas, western hunting and 99% of the people I've met there over the years. Colorado game laws and restrictions, and their wording, are a cluster F of epic proportions. Every year that I read through the 70 (mas o menos) page big game brochure I get the distinct impression that the state of Colorado is looking for and has found new ways to catch me in a "gotcha crime". Thankfully, I haven't actually experienced that in the field. The limited interaction I've had with Colo GWs. has all been very positive and helpful. I love the real life Colorado Hunting Experience. On paper, it's an Orwellian nightmare.
 
After reading this I just get the feeling that its a racket for the outfitter. It seems un-American to make it illegal to help a guy out that you meet on the trail. How long do I have to know a guy to be able to help him pack out his animal or gear? Days, years,?? I really don't understand how this got passed into law in our capitalist free-market country. So if you're an outfitter (actually Thee outfitter) in an area, you can charge whatever you want to pack meat and the people using the National Forest are obligated to pay it.[/QUOTE
]
I'm pretty sure you can help him you just can't accept payment of any kind. I believe the idea of the law is to keep people from making money off public lands without paying their fair share, much like firewood permits and Christmas tree permits. If it was unregulated and anyone with horses could pack people or gear in or out it would be a disaster in certain areas.

I pay taxes on that public land just like everyone else. I actually probably pay a lot more in federal taxes a year than an outfitter pays in their license. So I have paid my fair share. Cutting down trees shouldn't be allowed on public lands period. They are for everyone to enjoy not one person to take away. My problem is that say I'm out in the wilderness and I tweak my knee or something or just get sick, or I didn't realize how much work it is to pack out an animal and I'm a smooth talker and have a few hundred cash on me why cant I bribe a guy to haul out my stuff? There is no cell phone coverage, and no way to get in touch with the legal licensed outfitter even if I somehow know who that is. I also don't really understand the need to be insured and bonded to haul out meat. There is no risk to anyone other than yourself. I understand that this is how some folks make their living and they work very hard, it just seems like a way to stick it to the common folk using public land. I could pay anyone I want to wire my house as long as it is up to code. And that argument is apples and oranges. You are comparing a highly technical skill set with applicable codes to throwing a few bags of meat into a pannier. Nobody should be allowed to monopolize public space.
 
There is no cell phone coverage, and no way to get in touch with the legal licensed outfitter even if I somehow know who that is.

This is the main thing that resonated with me when I learned the rules in this thread. If I know who the outfitter is but their camp is 8mi away I'm not going to hike over to them just to see if they might be able to haul and I'm also not going to wait around just in case they check in.

In reality what I shoot I plan to take out on my back with help of whomever is hunting with me. That said it would be nice if I had the option to negotiate with anyone with the means (IE usually a horse but if in an ATV legal area that would be an option too) that crosses my laboring path. After a long hunt if they're willing to take the pack loads on some horses (or ATV) while I hike out on foot it would be nice to legally be able to show appreciation back at the truck.

But it is what it is, good to know so I don't potentially get an honest horseman in trouble that isn't aware of this either.
 
Well said pod. And Im not trying to turn this into a peeing match with the hard working guys who are outfitters. You are trying to make a living working within the boundaries of the law. I respect that and I wish you all the best. I am glad I read this I had no idea. Good luck everyone, hopefully you have to worry about getting meat out in a few weeks.
 
Seems like most are all for free markets and capitalism until it has a direct effect on their business.
 
Packing game is shit business if I were to charge $400, $500, or $800. Staff, stock, logistics, it isn't even close. Over years of outfitting, we do it as a favor to the public and to keep good relations with guys that frequent the area. To equate it to "throwing a couple bags of meat in panniers" is pretty classic. If a guy wants to pay his buddy to help him pack out an elk, I couldn't care less. Is it illegal, yes. Relevant to business, no. I pack as many, if not more, bulls out of the wilderness than any outfitter in CO.

If a guy wants to run a big business and compete with me, ignoring all the licensing, first aid requirements, liability insurance, government fees, camp fees, investing in permits and associated bureaucratic mess. Then yeah, I have a problem with that. It's anti free market. It's like competing with the mafia.

On that subject. You guys can argue as much as you want about capitalism and free markets. In that world there wouldn't be any form of public land. Public land is, by definition, a non-capitalist and non-free-market idea. Who pays the mortgage on the public land? Is it being used at the highest and best economic use? Is hunting on wilderness areas heavily subsidized? You sure as hell bet it is. These wilderness areas are multiple billion dollar pieces of land. What would the private hunting lease be worth on one? oh wow, we have gone down a free market hole, haven't we?

Outside of a long history of outfitters making almost all the wilderness areas in CO huntable in the first place, here is what all you guys hunting public land with an anti-outfitter sentiment need to understand. The first and strongest line of defense on your ability to hunt public lands are the historical users with an intense economic reason (feeding their families) to protect their use and viable game populations. Contrary to what you believe, our land management managers don't consider hunters as the top of the user base hierarchy. It started with the cattlemen and sheep guys, now the cram down is on outfitters. Who is next? It sure as hell isn't mountain bikers, hikers, yoga practitioners, etc... It's public hunters. It may not come from direct use restrictions, but it will come from letting other users destroy our game populations. Who shows up to the local meeting to fight the mountain bike trails on winter range... outfitters.

In addition, for you non-residents, who do you think is protecting your ability to hunt these western states? Residents in most states would slash nonresident tags if it weren't for outfitters representing your interests. See, our clients are non-residents, like you!

This is complicated stuff that is rapidly changing. If you aren't in the public offices every two weeks, you frankly have no idea what you are talking about. The forest has always been a non-free market convention, but it was pro entrepreneur and pro partial privatization so resources were protected. Unfortunately, that is changing.

Go into a forest service office and ask the hunters to raise their hands. Ask how many grew up on ranches. Twenty years ago, most would have smiled and raised there hand. Now, it is damn near zero. This is our biggest threat, that nobody seems to acknowledge.

Wow, didn't mean to write an essay. got on a roll I suppose. hope all you guys have the luck to pack one out here over the next couple months!

Cliff Gray
 
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Nice post Cliff. Agree with about 99% of your post except the mafia part. The mafia is the government. They are the ones that require you to pay the licensing, first aid requirements, liability insurance, government fees, camp fees, investing in permits and associated bureaucratic mess. I use an outfitter fairly often that isnt licensed to operate in my unit. I was told by them that they could pack meat, do drop camps if you bring your own gear, and rent and deliver horses.

What I learned on this thread is that they obviously are breaking the law on the packing meat and drop camp part. Who know's maybe they have a deal worked out with the outfitter that is licensed. Funny thing is the guy I use is actually closer to the unit I hunt, only his license is good for the other side of the highway...if it weren't for the mafia, it would be much more convenient to use him, since he is a stand up guy with a stand up operation.

Edit - and the outfitter that is licensed in the area I have heard is a total jerk. I guess he can be as long as he has the Dons protection. He also leaves camps in open basins with no one there for weeks at a time.
 
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Nice post Cliff. Agree with about 99% of your post except the mafia part. The mafia is the government. They are the ones that require you to pay the licensing, first aid requirements, liability insurance, government fees, camp fees, investing in permits and associated bureaucratic mess. I use an outfitter fairly often that isnt licensed to operate in my unit. I was told by them that they could pack meat, do drop camps if you bring your own gear, and rent and deliver horses.

What I learned on this thread is that they obviously are breaking the law on the packing meat and drop camp part. Who know's maybe they have a deal worked out with the outfitter that is licensed. Funny thing is the guy I use is actually closer to the unit I hunt, only his license is good for the other side of the highway...if it weren't for the mafia, it would be much more convenient to use him, since he is a stand up guy with a stand up operation.

Edit - and the outfitter that is licensed in the area I have heard is a total jerk. I guess he can be as long as he has the Dons protection. He also leaves camps in open basins with no one there for weeks at a time.

I see where you (along with other posters) are coming from and I do believe that there is a legitimate gripe when the current system doesn't offer a good service provider worth hiring. That is not a good situation, and I have addressed it dozen of times with the USFS. They don't care.
 
I see where you (along with other posters) are coming from and I do believe that there is a legitimate gripe when the current system doesn't offer a good service provider worth hiring. That is not a good situation, and I have addressed it dozen of times with the USFS. They don't care.
Cliff is right about the mafia. If a ref is bad and the rules are bad in a sport, it's still better if the ref are fair and both teams play by the same rules. If we can't ahve a free market we might stuill hope for a fair one, yeah?
If we all have or play by the same rules, we'll be more inclined to fight together against bad government rules. So long as there is a dark-market that is under the table, the incentives don't unite us against bad governance, they just undermine the outfitters. And Cliff is right, outfitters are not our main enemy in western hunting. They may be our main COMPETITION, but they're not our main ENEMY. That is a critical distinction. Cliff is gonna kill the bull I'm after better and faster and I'm gonna eat tag soup. The Government is going to make hunting history. Those are not the same thing.

Howver, I do think packing for a fee should be availible. That seems like a reasonable service that should be attainable for a fee. If someone wants to under work Outfitters based on the same economic equasions of legality, then that is a competitive market. If they are free riding a system, then it's not a fair market. By free riding a system, I don't mean using outfitter trails. I mean not paying fees for legal liscensing or following other regulations.

The one thing about Cliff's post I wonder about is what he said about out of state hunters. I'd have thought the Gov liked us best since we pay 10x more for our tags and spend so much more in state for staying and staging, and so on. Plus we are worse at hunting your home turf- so we pay all that and more often take nothing, right? I can't do 5 scouting trips before hte hunt from Wisconsin. And we are thus more likely to feel we need guides. Aren't we disproportionately footing the bill for the system?
 
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