Short Track
WKR
You guys still haven't figured out how to kill an Elk ????
These threads are just comical..
These threads are just comical..
I am pretty done with this whole thread. I hope we helped the OP. Or maybe the OP is sitting there going "WTF" - So I will bow out having said my piece.@Article 4
The argument isn't that energy doesn't do anything (obviously if the bullet had no energy it wouldn't be moving), it's that the ftlbs energy number doesn't tell you whether the bullet will be effective or not. Hence "energy is a useless metric."
For example look at the 77tmk out of a 223 Remington. There's a huge thread showing hundreds of autopsy pictures and accounts that show it is very effective on game up to at least Elk and Moose as long as it's moving at least 1800fps or so when it hits.
At 554 ftlbs that's WAY under your proclaimed 1000 minimum, but it's extremely effective.
Let's say we wanted to surpass 1000 ftlbs, so we used a 30 cal 180gr Barnes TSX. To get 1000 foot pounds we need it to hit moving at least 1582fps. It's not even going to expand.
The 77tmk at 554 foot pounds makes a gaping wound you can put your fist through, and the 180tsx at 1000 foot pounds pencils through.
So, do you still think you should use 1000 foot pounds as your pass/fail metric for effectiveness, or would you be better off looking at bullet construction type and impact velocity?
Apples and oranges.No it doesn't. Recurves and longbows produce very little energy, and kill stuff dead as a high "KE" weapon. Properly designed projectiles matter. Period. That's it.
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Apples and oranges.
The KE of a bullet breaks bones and destroys muscle tissue and organs.
The KE of an arrow just has to drive the broadhead through muslce tissue and organs where the sharp edges of the broadhead cuts the tissue and organs, and the animal basically bleeds to death.
I've done both.
Actually the bullet design is what breaks bones and disrupts tissues. FMJ will pencil right through, match bullet will turn them to jello. Bonded bullets somewhere in the middle. KE isn't a magic force field of destruction.Apples and oranges.
The KE of a bullet breaks bones and destroys muscle tissue and organs.
The KE of an arrow just has to drive the broadhead through muslce tissue and organs where the sharp edges of the broadhead cuts the tissue and organs, and the animal basically bleeds to death.
I've done both.
Actually the bullet design is what determines how the bullet will react when it hits the resistance of animal flesh and/or bone. The size of the wound and wound channel is determined by how much and how fast the KE of the bullet is transfered to the animal's flesh and bone.Actually the bullet design is what breaks bones and disrupts tissues. FMJ will pencil right through, match bullet will turn them to jello. Bonded bullets somewhere in the middle. KE isn't a magic force field of destruction.
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You're just flat wrong. Keep the 1000 ft lbs thing to yourself it's bad advice and someone might listen to you .I am pretty done with this whole thread. I hope we helped the OP. Or maybe the OP is sitting there going "WTF" - So I will bow out having said my piece.
To your first comment, and thanks for being polite. The original premise that I made with the 1000 lb post, many said that I was completely wrong about energy. Even using personal attacks about how juvenile I am and how I have no evidence. SO i led folks down a path without quoting experts in hopes we could expand some thinking. Didnt work. So then I provided evidence, quoting the chief ballistician from Berger, Hornady, and the US Army proving they believe it and it matters. The latter publishing a 2020 study confirming it along side a Harvard Physics PHD. Harvard PHD (very anti gun school) Corroborating that energy matters...to me that says something. Energy exists, period. There is no way it cannot exist. Period. Anyone saying anything different is completely ignoring physics.
I am not and have not discounted making a hole in an animal. I only said that I could kill without making a hole using energy, like a sledgehammer.
Making holes matters, obviously.
I am saying energy matters and more of it is better.
To your second, I have killed big game animals all over the world with Bergers, Nosler and Hornady Bonded bullets, non-bonded bullets, copper bullets, and arrows. Making a hole in the animal matters. Energy accompanying a bullet matters. More the better. We even calculate it in arrows. Hornady's Jayden Quinlan stated many times “To maximize hydrostatic shock, you should impact with the most energy possible, that’s the mechanism for hydrostatic shock—the energy that a projectile is carrying."
So you all keep writing, keep telling me I am wrong, I am good with that. I have scientific, peer reviewed articles and expert bullet makers supporting mine so Ill sleep just fine knowing BOTH, making a hole in the animal and shooting the largest and fastest projectile that I can at it, so that the accompanying energy creates an even more devastating wound. All of that will aide in killing the animal faster!!!
Prove itYou're just flat wrong. Keep the 1000 ft lbs thing to yourself it's bad advice and someone might listen to you .
Form already explained it. Minimum impact velocity. If bullet expands as intended it will do the damage. Energy is not an indicator of lethality. Velocity, bullet selection and shot placement are going to be the best variables to focus on. It has everything to do with how the bullet was designed and how it transfers that energy into your target. This is achieved by hitting the target at or above the minimum impact velocity. The energy number is not useful because it doesn't tell you when the bullet stops performing as intended. In summary, bullet selection, minimum velocity and shot placement.Prove it
Perhaps you can explain what is happening in the attached bullet impact and how it is transferring energy well outside the wound channel?Form already explained it. Minimum impact velocity. If bullet expands as intended it will do the damage. Energy is not an indicator of lethality. Velocity, bullet selection and shot placement are going to be the best variables to focus on. It has everything to do with how the bullet was designed and how it transfers that energy into your target. This is achieved by hitting the target at or above the minimum impact velocity. The energy number is not useful because it doesn't tell you when the bullet stops performing as intended. In summary, bullet selection, minimum velocity and shot placement.
Some truth to that - There is a great 2021 article by one of Steve Rinellas crew by Sillars; and although he states what I also believe to be true, is that bullet placement is the #1 factor, energy and hydrostatic shock exist and are facts that contribute to death and damage, in fact the often seen result of an animal drpping dead and folding up is primarily the result of energy transfer.I have read a bit about experianced elk hunters saying lighter loads kill elk and the elk dont run off because they didnt get hit so hard. They stay put and die. I'm not experianced enough to know if that is true