Max Effective Range for Elk: 7-08, 6.5C, and 308

[bmart2622]

Who do you think had killed more animals, Form or any of the ballisticians you listed? Who do you think has done more necropsies, Form or any of the the ballisticians you listed? Point being, there is a big difference between analytical on paper data and real word data

 

[Laelkhunter]

So, what is the Max Effective Range for Elk: 7-08, 6.5C, and 308 ?? Asking for a friend...(The OP).

 

[Article 4]

Who do you think had killed more animals, Form or any of the ballisticians you listed? Who do you think has done more necropsies, Form or any of the the ballisticians you listed? Point being, there is a big difference between analytical on paper data and real word data

If I had to guess, Form...maybe you, maybe me. We don't know.

I have already answered much of this - you can refer to previous posts.

For me, I will accept the educated and proven quotes and data from Brian Litz (berger), Dave Emery (hornady), Jayden Quinlan (hornady), Steven Rinella (meateater), multiple statistical scientists, West Point ballisticians, like Michael Courtney, PhD Ballistics Testing Group, at West Point, Amy Courtney, PhD Department of Physics, United States Military Academy, and all the other scientists who state its true.

Try reading this completely....https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA526059.pdf

 

[TaperPin]

You guys seem to think shooting animals with cartridges on the small side with fragile bullets is something new that was invented here. The arguments you make that small economy guns are all that is needed are essentially 100 years old and started with the 22 Hipower, 250 savage, 257 Roberts, etc.

During that 100 years shooters choose what works - and that usually isn’t the economy Prius cartridges. If you want to shoot a small gun, knock yourself out, but many hunters don’t want to be limited to the angles that a fragile bullet requires. I’m sorry, but you guys didn’t discover anything new and revolutionary. The amount of animals every person in this forum combined has shot is a drop in the bucket compared to what is taken across the continent. It’s ridiculous to think the Prius cartridges gives someone the best chance of bringing an animal home - millions of animals taken with conventional combinations have provided plenty of evidence for that. There’s nothing wrong with a light caliber, pistol, muzzleloader, archery, sharp stick, whatever you want to hunt with is fine, but lighter combinations have more limitations. Likewise, drive a Prius, electric bike, skateboard, pickup, or whatever turns your crank.

The biggest limitation to connecting with an animal at long range is wind drift error - Prius cartridges have more wind drift and wind drift error, so not only are your shooting angles more limited, your effective range for first round hits is less.

I don’t expect the Prius crowd to change their minds based on anything I’m saying, but I will continue to repeat this from time to time for the new guys just getting started who are trying to sort out fact from opinion. Just because someone says the Prius is the best ever made and all you need, doesn’t make it so. Whatever you choose to hunt with, stay within it’s limitations.

 

[bmart2622]

We do know and it's not me, you, or any of the people listed. For me, I will accept actual proven data gathered from the field and would encourage everyone else to do so as well.

 

[Dumply]

Hydrostatic shock exists. It is energy. Rifle bullets produce it upon impact.

Energy matters. Period. That’s it.

Cheers!

If velocity kills,, would a 4000fps needle kill an elk when chest shot?
An object small and fast enough to penetrate and large enough to deliver energy and disrupt that kills imo…within the limit of recoil generated that a person could withstand. If we could shoot a 4000lb and 3x6’ projectile at 55mph at critters, that would kill them but the recoil energy would kill us.
Velocity and energy makes penetration of a projectile large enough to disrupt and destroy by energy delivered. Imo.

 

[ARK_Ginger]

Try reading this completely....https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA526059.pdf

"Recommendations The FBI recommends that loads intended for self-defense and law enforcement applications meet a minimum penetration requirement of 12” in ballistic gelatin.[8] Maximizing ballistic pressure wave effects requires transferring maximum energy in a penetration distance that meets this requirement. In addition, bullets that fragment and penetration meet requirements minimum generate higher pressure waves than bullets which do not fragment. Understanding the potential benefits of remote ballistic pressure wave effects leads us to favor loads with at least 500 ft-lbs of energy."

I added the bold part. To me this doesn't seem like a very strong paper to prove that the shock waves are a primary method of incapacitation in game animals. The 500 ft-lbs recommendation doesn't seem to have much data behind it either.

 

[Article 4]

You guys seem to think shooting animals with cartridges on the small side with fragile bullets is something new that was invented here. The arguments you make that small economy guns are all that is needed are essentially 100 years old and started with the 22 Hipower, 250 savage, 257 Roberts, etc.

During that 100 years shooters choose what works - and that usually isn’t the economy Prius cartridges. If you want to shoot a small gun, knock yourself out, but many hunters don’t want to be limited to the angles that a fragile bullet requires. I’m sorry, but you guys didn’t discover anything new and revolutionary. The amount of animals every person in this forum combined has shot is a drop in the bucket compared to what is taken across the continent. It’s ridiculous to think the Prius cartridges gives someone the best chance of bringing an animal home - millions of animals taken with conventional combinations have provided plenty of evidence for that. There’s nothing wrong with a light caliber, pistol, muzzleloader, archery, sharp stick, whatever you want to hunt with is fine, but lighter combinations have more limitations. Likewise, drive a Prius, electric bike, skateboard, pickup, or whatever turns your crank.

The biggest limitation to connecting with an animal at long range is wind drift error - Prius cartridges have more wind drift and wind drift error, so not only are your shooting angles more limited, your effective range for first round hits is less.

I don’t expect the Prius crowd to change their minds based on anything I’m saying, but I will continue to repeat this from time to time for the new guys just getting started who are trying to sort out fact from opinion. Just because someone says the Prius is the best ever made and all you need, doesn’t make it so. Whatever you choose to hunt with, stay within it’s limitations.

I subscribe to bigger is better - almost always overgun and over bullet for many reasons

 

[Article 4]

"Recommendations The FBI recommends that loads intended for self-defense and law enforcement applications meet a minimum penetration requirement of 12” in ballistic gelatin.[8] Maximizing ballistic pressure wave effects requires transferring maximum energy in a penetration distance that meets this requirement. In addition, bullets that fragment and penetration meet requirements minimum generate higher pressure waves than bullets which do not fragment. Understanding the potential benefits of remote ballistic pressure wave effects leads us to favor loads with at least 500 ft-lbs of energy."

I added the bold part. To me this doesn't seem like a very strong paper to prove that the shock waves are a primary method of incapacitation in game animals. The 500 ft-lbs recommendation doesn't seem to have much data behind it either.

Out of that entire paper that is what you quote? Noticed you didnt say anything about anything else I mentioned.

Go do some of your own digging. Find out for yourself, I learned a lot in the process.

 

[TaperPin]

Hydrostatic shock is often poo pooed, but it’s easy to see in the field. You can hit an antelope well outside anything that we typically think of as a vital kill zone - literally a gut shot - and they will typically run off and eventually slow down and you can get a finishing shot. Once you get up past 243, 25-06, or 270, the 7 mag or 300 mag stops them from running off based on hydrostatic shock alone. Hunters have known that since the big mags first started killing things. Of course deer or elk can pack off a lot more lead in their gut, but the internal effects of hydrostatic shock still damage things when the hit is in the vital zone.

Watch the three PRC cartridges shooting gel blocks - it doesn’t take a brain surgeon to understand the difference between a 6.5 giggling the block, a 7mm making the block buck, and the 300 breaking the wooden bench under the block while doing a double back flip triple gainer. Lol

 

[Article 4]

Hydrostatic shock is often poo pooed, but it’s easy to see in the field. You can hit an antelope well outside anything that we typically think of as a vital kill zone - literally a gut shot - and they will typically run off and eventually slow down and you can get a finishing shot. Once you get up past 243, 25-06, or 270, the 7 mag or 300 mag stops them from running off based on hydrostatic shock alone. Hunters have known that since the big mags first started killing things. Of course deer or elk can pack off a lot more lead in their gut, but the internal effects of hydrostatic shock still damage things when the hit is in the vital zone.

Watch the three PRC cartridges shooting gel blocks - it doesn’t take a brain surgeon to understand the difference between a 6.5 giggling the block, a 7mm making the block buck, and the 300 breaking the wooden bench under the block while doing a double back flip triple gainer. Lol

True, lets add Barnes to the all in on energy premise.

hydrostatic shock with ballistics gel - Google Search

 

[TaperPin]

I subscribe to bigger is better - almost always overgun and over bullet for many reasons

Yes, bigger is better.

 

[180ls1]

Who do you think had killed more animals, Form or any of the ballisticians you listed? Who do you think has done more necropsies, Form or any of the the ballisticians you listed? Point being, there is a big difference between analytical on paper data and real word data

On some of the forums, there is a guy who does elk depredation work who has posted his findings. Hundreds and hundreds of elk. He generally prefers a 30cal magnum.

My experience seems to line up with his. YMMV.

 

[bmart2622]

Sounds like Broz and Id bet he doesn't subscribe to the minimum energy requirement Fuddlore

 

[Hnthrdr]

Hydrostatic shock is often poo pooed, but it’s easy to see in the field. You can hit an antelope well outside anything that we typically think of as a vital kill zone - literally a gut shot - and they will typically run off and eventually slow down and you can get a finishing shot. Once you get up past 243, 25-06, or 270, the 7 mag or 300 mag stops them from running off based on hydrostatic shock alone. Hunters have known that since the big mags first started killing things. Of course deer or elk can pack off a lot more lead in their gut, but the internal effects of hydrostatic shock still damage things when the hit is in the vital zone.

Watch the three PRC cartridges shooting gel blocks - it doesn’t take a brain surgeon to understand the difference between a 6.5 giggling the block, a 7mm making the block buck, and the 300 breaking the wooden bench under the block while doing a double back flip triple gainer. Lol

Eh… watch a doe antelope get shot in the lung/heart with a 7 rem mag and that sucker still ran 300-400 yard. Same trip a different doe took a .243 a little further back and dumped her

 

[SteveAndTheCrigBoys]

6.5 CM seems light to me. My daughter killed a young bull with a 6.5 PRC with a 143 ELDX at 550 yds. The bull went down and never got up but the bullet was stuck in the hide on far side and didnt hit any bone.

Sounds like the bullet performed as it's designed to. If you wanted a smaller wound cavity and over-penetration for an exit, should have used a different bullet.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

This is why I kill all my elk with arrows like God intended

How dare you bring an arrow to a gun fight! The blasphemy.

 

[bmart2622]

Sounds like the bullet performed as it's designed to. If you wanted a smaller wound cavity and over-penetration for an exit, should have used a different bullet.

Facts!!!

 

[ARK_Ginger]

Out of that entire paper that is what you quote? Noticed you didnt say anything about anything else I mentioned.

Go do some of your own digging. Find out for yourself, I learned a lot in the process.

Was I supposed to quote something else?

Either the hydrostatic shock is there and has a meaningful difference on incapacitation or it doesn't. Until we can find a study measuring the differences energy (and by virtue hydrostatic shock) has on incapacitation it seems like a useless metric to get worked up about. Kinda like expanded bullet size on rifle bullets.

Wound sizes in calibrated ballistics gel still seems to be the clear winner in determining performance on game. And as it's been demonstrated that doesn't necessarily correlate with energy numbers.

 

[Jason Snyder]

The bull went down and never got up but the bullet was stuck in the hide on far side and didnt hit any bone.

I used to shoot a .338-06 with 185 grain Barnes TSX bullets. Two things stood out. I regularly had animals fall within several steps of being hit and I regularly found the bullet underneath the opposite side hide. This happened some with deer but especially so with elk. Does that mean it was too light?