Masculinity and Caliber Choice

[JohnJohnson]

What's the starting point for a magnum to be more viable? None at all? I don't buy that. But you also don't need one for forest whitetails. But where do they start to shine?

My completely uneducated viewpoint on this question is they start to shine past 800 yards or so. If you're comparing them to 6mm or 6.5mm cartridges. With the caveat being, they shine as long as the person shoots them as well as that smaller cartridge.

My similarly uneducated guestimate of the % of hunters that applies to would be under 1%. As I said before, most magnum shooters I've seen have a flinch and/or terrible shooting form. But if you ask them, the recoil doesn't affect them. Because if it did, they wouldn't be as much of a man.

 

[General RE LEE]

Magnum rifle doesnt equal magnum condom

 

[TaperPin]

You sure? Cause I haven’t seen it. And SCDNR couldn’t see it when they studied it.

“During this study there were in excess of 20 different center-fire cartridges used to harvest deer. To reduce variability the various cartridges were group by their respective caliber. This resulted in the delineation of 5 caliber groups; .243 cal., .25 cal., .270 cal., .284 cal., and .30 cal.

In order to gain some objective measure of how these calibers performed on deer, we looked at the distance deer traveled. This included all animals regardless of whether they died in their tracks or ran. We found no significant difference in the performance of these caliber groups when comparing how deer reacted. Mean distances deer traveled varied between 14 and 40 yards but there was no apparent relationship with increasing or decreasing caliber size or the inherent differences in velocity or energy that is related to the different caliber groups.”

If your trusted source of cartridge selection information is SCDNR, that’s fine. It doesn’t jive with what is seen every year in my world. If a mule deer is headed over a saddle at a hard angle, the 243 has a less than stellar reputation in this situation, but I wouldn’t hesitate to smoke it with a 7 mag and bullet that holds together and penetrates well. Shoot an antelope too far back (since they are often in motion this happens a lot) with a 243 and it will keep up with the others, maybe beyond where you want to follow. Same situation with a 7 mag and they are done - not down, but done moving.

I don’t see a lot of talk about less than ideal angles - as if deer and elk stand sideways looking pretty just waiting to be shot. In my world, both are quick to hightail it out of the country, over a saddle or over a ridge. I think it’s a good noble sign that small caliber folks claim to happily let an animal go that’s a hard quartering or going away shot. Lightly constructed bullets just aren’t cutout for this. It doesn’t seem like a minor compromise to let an animal go that would be easy to anchor with a larger tougher bullet.

There’s nothing wrong with broadside shots with lightly constructed bullets from small calibers and I wouldn’t hesitate to take a shot with 77 gr TMK, I’ll continue to loan out a 243, and will probably take something with the new 6BR barrel. However, when I’m spending years to find a big animal, the more angles I can shoot it from the better, and a heavy/fast controlled expansion bullet has been a reliable killer since the preteen days reading Mad Magazine at the grocery store. For 95% of all shots I expect the bullet to barely expends any energy on the pass through, because on that difficult going away 5% shot it needs all the penetration and horsepower it can get.

Don’t worry, I’m not trying to change anyone’s long held beliefs, but new hunters trying to make sense out cartridges, bullets and shot placements should know what the trade offs are. For a 7 mag or 300 mag hunting rifle that’s set up and dialed in, each year it may only get shot 10 to 20 times between checking zero and hunting - the rest of the year in the off season I’m shooting a 6mm of some kind for practice and varmints, and any number of calibers for plinking.

 

[DangerRanger]

Men only think about one thing smh, even on a lifetime elk hunt we will move the world to get a shot in that dumpster

What’s even the point if I couldn’t give it a honest try right

 

[RockAndSage]

Don’t worry, I’m not trying to change anyone’s long held beliefs, but new hunters trying to make sense out cartridges, bullets and shot placements should know what the trade offs are.

^^ This. Tradeoffs, and limitations, for any cartridge and specific bullet being selected.

 

[Novahunter]

If someone is highly experienced, proficient, and shots a magnum well, why not? The best shooter I know shots a 28 Nosler and the second best shooter I know shots a 300 RUM. Is it ego that they shot those cartridges? Absolutely not. I’d trust my life to either of them having to make a 500-800 yard shot under pressure with those “magnums”. They’ve perfected their shooting sequence on those rifles and prefer the added insurance “if” something goes wrong (e.g. wrong wind call).

That's exactly the type of shooter I want to be with my 300 RUM. Taking a while to get there, and I've learned alot along the road.

 

[Formidilosus]

If your trusted source of cartridge selection information is SCDNR, that’s fine. It doesn’t jive with what is seen every year in my world.

How many animal did you kill or directly see killed last year, or the year before? What were the cartridges, bullets and approximate impact speed? What was the angle of each animal, what was the placement and wound path, what was the wound channel size and behavior, and what what did the animal do- how long did it stay on its feet and/or moving it head if down, how far did it travel?

Being that you see it every year, those question should be very easy to answer.

Here’s mine from memory:

Elk, (IIRC) 340 yards, 223 77gr TMK 2,200fps impact, broadside first shot through ribs, lungs, ribs and exited. Second shot quartering away, through femur, into stomach. Dropped. 4” diameter wounds alone way through. Second shot penetrated 15-16” after breaking femur

Deer- 308 yards, 2,220fps, 223 with 77gr TMK, slight quartering too- through inside scapula, ribs, not lungs and exit. Deer stumbled 3-5 yards and was up for about 3 seconds. Approx a 3.5 inch diameter wound all the way through.

Elk, 860 yards, 1,700fps impact, 6.5mm 143gr ELD-X, slight quartering too- liver, and stomach with approx 17” penetration. Bullet yawed inside and was caught in the grass in side stomach. Elk walked 20’ish yards as fell. When approached it got up and ran and a neck shot straight away broke spine at 160 yards. The first bullet created about a 2.5” diameter wound. The second was about 4” diameter.

Elk, 633 yards, 1,540fps impact, 223 77gr TMK, quartering away, just in front of scapula and breaking spine, exited. No movement. Approx 2” diameter wound all the way through neck.

Elk- 430 yards, 223 77gr TMK, 1,830is fps impact, first shot slightly quartering too, stomach through femur. Second shot, nearly facing away- through femur and exit in front of opposite hip. Third shot, back of head facing away. Elk walked approx 60 yards total and laid down before the last shot. Each wound channel was fist sized all the way through.

Elk- 550 yards, 1,780fps impact, 223 77gr TMK, hard quartering away, through ribs, lung, heart- caught in heart. Approx 19” penetration. Elk walked 2-3 feet, swayed and fell. Approximately 3” diameter wound full depth.

Elk- 80 yards, 2,500fps impact, 6.5 143gr ELD-X, head.

Elk, 80 yards, 2,700fps impact, 223 77gr TMk, head.

Elk (1)- 80 yards, 6mm 112gr Match burner 2,700fps impact, first shot was liver and stomach ran about 100 yards and bedded down. Second shot, hard quartering way 115hr DTAC, ribs, spine and lungs. No movement.

Elk (2)- 80 yards, 6mm 112gr Match burner 2,700fps impact, first shot was liver and stomach ran about 100 yards and bedded down. Second shot, hard quartering way 115hr DTAC, ribs, spine and lungs. No movement.

Elk- 330yards, broadside, 6.5 130gr TMK 2,450fps impact, broadside, ribs, lungs, ribs, and exited. Quick walked 30’ish yards and fell. Approx 6” diameter wound all the way through.

Elk- 360 yards, broadside, 6.5 143gr ELD-X, 2,150fps impact, ribs and lungs. Dropped at shot. Head still moving, second shot high lungs and stopped movement. Approx 4” diameter wounds all the way through.

Elk- 480 yards (IIRC), 6mm 115hr DTAC 2,200fps impact, broadside, ribs, lungs, ribs, caught in exit skin. Walked approx 40 yards and fell. Approx 4.5” diameter wound starting on near lung until the last 2”.

Elk- 803 yards, broadside, 223 77gr TMK, 1,4040fps impact. Through inside scapula, ribs, both lungs, ribs, through exit side scapula, caught under skin. Walked 30’ish yards, fell. Still kicking. Second shot hard quartering away, raking through ribs, top of lungs, and spine. First bullet had approx 16” penetration through both “shoulders”, second 19” penetration almost the whole way through bones. Both wounds were approx 2.5” in diameter.

Elk, 644 yards, quartering too, 6mm DTAC, 2,400fps impact, low through one lung, liver and stomach and caught in exit side. Walked ten feet, second shot through both lungs, and exited. Approx 4” diameter wounds.

Elk, 360 yards. 30cal 225gr ELD-M 2,600fps impact, quartering away, raking through ribs and spine. Caught on exit side. Approximately 14” penetration. Wound was approx 3” in diameter Second shot to head.

Elk, 630 yards, 30cal 225gr ELD-M, 2,200fps, neck and spine. Dropped. Wound was approx 2” in diameter.

Elk, 630 yards, 6mm 108gr ELD-M 1,900fps impact. First shot rear of lungs. Walked 10-15 feet and fell. Got back up and walked 80’ish yards and a second shot through the lungs and offside scapula dropped it. Approx 3” diameter wounds all the way through.

Elk- 600’ish yards, 6.5mm 143gr ELD-X 1,850fps impact, broadside, ribs, lungs, ribs, exited. Ram 20-30 yards and fell. Approx 2.5” diameter wound all the way through.

Elk, 630 yards, 6.5mm 143gr ELD-X 1,800fps impact, through scapula, ribs, lungs, and exit. Walked 10-15 feet and stopped. Second shot through lungs and fell Approx 3.5” dinner wound all the way through.

Elk- 619 yards, 6mm 115gr DTAC 1,970fps impact, quartering away- through ribs, lungs, ribs, caught under skin. Quick walked a few feet and fell.


That was last year with a variety of skill and expect in the hunters. I can do this year, and the year before as well though in general the skill and experience is higher those years.

If a mule deer is headed over a saddle at a hard angle, the 243 has a less than stellar reputation in this situation, but I wouldn’t hesitate to smoke it with a 7 mag and bullet that holds together and penetrates well.

I have only down it a few dozen times with 243 and smaller- no issues at all. Have done it dozens of times with 7mm and larger, again no issue.

Shoot an antelope too far back (since they are often in motion this happens a lot) with a 243 and it will keep up with the others, maybe beyond where you want to follow. Same situation with a 7 mag and they are done - not down, but done moving.

How many instances are you drawing that conclusion from? I’ve seen quite a few 7mm and 30 cal mag shot antelope cover hundreds of yards with poor body hits.

I don’t see a lot of talk about less than ideal angles - as if deer and elk stand sideways looking pretty just waiting to be shot. In my world, both are quick to hightail it out of the country, over a saddle or over a ridge. I think it’s a good noble sign that small caliber folks claim to happily let an animal go that’s a hard quartering or going away shot.

There is no angle I have or would shoot an elk with a 30 cal mag, that I wouldn’t with a 223 and good bullets. There is no angle I have had to pass on an elk with any cartridge, that I would have shot with any other cartridge/ including 20+ hard quartering too, or hard quartering away.

Lightly constructed bullets just aren’t cutout for this. It doesn’t seem like a minor compromise to let an animal go that would be easy to anchor with a larger tougher bullet.

I think you have little to no experience with correct bullets in smaller cartridges with large smoke sizes.

Don’t worry, I’m not trying to change anyone’s long held beliefs, but new hunters trying to make sense out cartridges, bullets and shot placements should know what the trade offs are.

What exactly in your personal experience with 223 and 6mm cartridges using the type of bullets that are suggested on this board, are the “tradeoffs”?

 

[RockAndSage]

Elk- 803 yards, broadside, 223 77gr TMK, 1,4040fps impact. Through inside scapula, ribs, both lungs, ribs, through exit side scapula, caught under skin. Walked 30’ish yards, fell. Still kicking. Second shot hard quartering away, raking through ribs, top of lungs, and spine. First bullet had approx 16” penetration through both “shoulders”, second 19” penetration almost the whole way through bones. Both wounds were approx 2.5” in diameter.

Pics, video, and witnesses - or this 803 yard shot on an elk with a .223 just did not happen.

Also, in what capacity did you see and/or personally shoot 20 elk in one year?

 

[yeti12]

I'll just post this again cause I love it.

6 arc after going through a car windshield at an angle. Still traveled 17" and held together but yet according to some they explode on entry and don't exit squirrels.

@MCS

 

[Formidilosus]

Pics, video, and witnesses - or this 803 yard shot on an elk with a .223 just did not happen.

Also, in what capacity did you see and/or personally shoot 20 elk in one year?

There are lots of pics in the 223 thread. @PNWGATOR was on the spotter. His elk was the one at 330 yards right before it. Also, there were two other RS members that killed elk with him- simultaneous fire. And there is video using @Ryan Avery camera.

As for 20 elk a year, unlike most apparently I hunt. A lot. I average between 14 and 19 a year for the last 5-6 years.

 

[Formidilosus]

View attachment 700637

I'll just post this again cause I love it.

6 arc after going through a car windshield at an angle. Still traveled 17" and held together but yet according to some they explode on entry and don't exit squirrels.

@MCS

That is correct.

 

[RockAndSage]

There are lots of pics in the 223 thread. @PNWGATOR was on the spotter. His elk was the one at 330 yards right before it. Also, there were two other RS members that killed elk with him- simultaneous fire. And there is video using @Ryan Avery camera.

Oh, I've read every single one of those posts over 340+ pages on the .223 thread. It's great info.

But that doesn't tell me in what capacity you've personally shot or seen shot at least 20 elk in one season.

And it doesn't prove your claim of a pair of 803 yard kill shots on an elk with a .223.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I am genuinely open to being convinced, but it will take hard evidence of video to believe an 803 yard .223 kill on an elk.

 

[SteveAndTheCrigBoys]

.223 for bear, deer, elk and moose.

EVERY new bore get punched with a cleaning rod, to get a reading on it's true Twist Rate before the first shot...

rokslide.com

The 803yd pics for reference

 

[Shō[t]gun]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I am genuinely open to being convinced, but it will take hard evidence of video to believe an 803 yard .223 kill on an elk.

A 223/77 is still going 1600fps at 800y at elk elevations. This video shows one closer to 1000fps tumbling and causing decent damage in ballistics gel.

I don't understand Form's anonymity while other contributors are more open, but I don't really care and I can respect it. I doubt Robby and Ryan would let some lying blowhard run their mouth on here as a moderator so I tend to believe a lot of what he says is based in fact or at least legit personal experience whether I agree or not. I don't intend to toss my other guns in favor of a 223, but elk aren't bulletproof and 223 bullets cause a lot more damage than people give them credit.

 

[PNWGATOR]

Oh, I've read every single one of those posts over 340+ pages on the .223 thread. It's great info.

But that doesn't tell me in what capacity you've personally shot or seen shot at least 20 elk in one season.

And it doesn't prove your claim of a pair of 803 yard kill shots on an elk with a .223.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I am genuinely open to being convinced, but it will take hard evidence of video to believe an 803 yard .223 kill on an elk.

Oh, it happened. I witnessed it first hand as did two others.

 

[TaperPin]

How many animal did you kill or directly see killed last year, or the year before? What were the cartridges, bullets and approximate impact speed? What was the angle of each animal, what was the placement and wound path, what was the wound channel size and behavior, and what what did the animal do- how long did it stay on its feet and/or moving it head if down, how far did it travel?

Being that you see it every year, those question should be very easy to answer.

Here’s mine from memory:

Elk, (IIRC) 340 yards, 223 77gr TMK 2,200fps impact, broadside first shot through ribs, lungs, ribs and exited. Second shot quartering away, through femur, into stomach. Dropped. 4” diameter wounds alone way through. Second shot penetrated 15-16” after breaking femur

Deer- 308 yards, 2,220fps, 223 with 77gr TMK, slight quartering too- through inside scapula, ribs, not lungs and exit. Deer stumbled 3-5 yards and was up for about 3 seconds. Approx a 3.5 inch diameter wound all the way through.

Elk, 860 yards, 1,700fps impact, 6.5mm 143gr ELD-X, slight quartering too- liver, and stomach with approx 17” penetration. Bullet yawed inside and was caught in the grass in side stomach. Elk walked 20’ish yards as fell. When approached it got up and ran and a neck shot straight away broke spine at 160 yards. The first bullet created about a 2.5” diameter wound. The second was about 4” diameter.

Elk, 633 yards, 1,540fps impact, 223 77gr TMK, quartering away, just in front of scapula and breaking spine, exited. No movement. Approx 2” diameter wound all the way through neck.

Elk- 430 yards, 223 77gr TMK, 1,830is fps impact, first shot slightly quartering too, stomach through femur. Second shot, nearly facing away- through femur and exit in front of opposite hip. Third shot, back of head facing away. Elk walked approx 60 yards total and laid down before the last shot. Each wound channel was fist sized all the way through.

Elk- 550 yards, 1,780fps impact, 223 77gr TMK, hard quartering away, through ribs, lung, heart- caught in heart. Approx 19” penetration. Elk walked 2-3 feet, swayed and fell. Approximately 3” diameter wound full depth.

Elk- 80 yards, 2,500fps impact, 6.5 143gr ELD-X, head.

Elk, 80 yards, 2,700fps impact, 223 77gr TMk, head.

Elk (1)- 80 yards, 6mm 112gr Match burner 2,700fps impact, first shot was liver and stomach ran about 100 yards and bedded down. Second shot, hard quartering way 115hr DTAC, ribs, spine and lungs. No movement.

Elk (2)- 80 yards, 6mm 112gr Match burner 2,700fps impact, first shot was liver and stomach ran about 100 yards and bedded down. Second shot, hard quartering way 115hr DTAC, ribs, spine and lungs. No movement.

Elk- 330yards, broadside, 6.5 130gr TMK 2,450fps impact, broadside, ribs, lungs, ribs, and exited. Quick walked 30’ish yards and fell. Approx 6” diameter wound all the way through.

Elk- 360 yards, broadside, 6.5 143gr ELD-X, 2,150fps impact, ribs and lungs. Dropped at shot. Head still moving, second shot high lungs and stopped movement. Approx 4” diameter wounds all the way through.

Elk- 480 yards (IIRC), 6mm 115hr DTAC 2,200fps impact, broadside, ribs, lungs, ribs, caught in exit skin. Walked approx 40 yards and fell. Approx 4.5” diameter wound starting on near lung until the last 2”.

Elk- 803 yards, broadside, 223 77gr TMK, 1,4040fps impact. Through inside scapula, ribs, both lungs, ribs, through exit side scapula, caught under skin. Walked 30’ish yards, fell. Still kicking. Second shot hard quartering away, raking through ribs, top of lungs, and spine. First bullet had approx 16” penetration through both “shoulders”, second 19” penetration almost the whole way through bones. Both wounds were approx 2.5” in diameter.

Elk, 644 yards, quartering too, 6mm DTAC, 2,400fps impact, low through one lung, liver and stomach and caught in exit side. Walked ten feet, second shot through both lungs, and exited. Approx 4” diameter wounds.

Elk, 360 yards. 30cal 225gr ELD-M 2,600fps impact, quartering away, raking through ribs and spine. Caught on exit side. Approximately 14” penetration. Wound was approx 3” in diameter Second shot to head.

Elk, 630 yards, 30cal 225gr ELD-M, 2,200fps, neck and spine. Dropped. Wound was approx 2” in diameter.

Elk, 630 yards, 6mm 108gr ELD-M 1,900fps impact. First shot rear of lungs. Walked 10-15 feet and fell. Got back up and walked 80’ish yards and a second shot through the lungs and offside scapula dropped it. Approx 3” diameter wounds all the way through.

Elk- 600’ish yards, 6.5mm 143gr ELD-X 1,850fps impact, broadside, ribs, lungs, ribs, exited. Ram 20-30 yards and fell. Approx 2.5” diameter wound all the way through.

Elk, 630 yards, 6.5mm 143gr ELD-X 1,800fps impact, through scapula, ribs, lungs, and exit. Walked 10-15 feet and stopped. Second shot through lungs and fell Approx 3.5” dinner wound all the way through.

Elk- 619 yards, 6mm 115gr DTAC 1,970fps impact, quartering away- through ribs, lungs, ribs, caught under skin. Quick walked a few feet and fell.


That was last year with a variety of skill and expect in the hunters. I can do this year, and the year before as well though in general the skill and experience is higher those years.






I have only down it a few dozen times with 243 and smaller- no issues at all. Have done it dozens of times with 7mm and larger, again no issue.




How many instances are you drawing that conclusion from? I’ve seen quite a few 7mm and 30 cal mag shot antelope cover hundreds of yards with poor body hits.







There is no angle I have or would shoot an elk with a 30 cal mag, that I wouldn’t with a 223 and good bullets. There is no angle I have had to pass on an elk with any cartridge, that I would have shot with any other cartridge/ including 20+ hard quartering too, or hard quartering away.




I think you have little to no experience with correct bullets in smaller cartridges with large smoke sizes.




What exactly in your personal experience with 223 and 6mm cartridges using the type of bullets that are suggested on this board, are the “tradeoffs”?

Like I said, I don’t expect you to change your mind on anything, but my judgement is based on what I’ve seen and experienced and what those around me have seen and experienced in rural Wyoming - the ideas aren’t new or old - it’s seen as solid common sense to most people.

I think it’s funny that you have a list to copy and paste to somehow prove what you’re saying, and that you think I’ll change my interpretation of my life experiences based on your list. Lol

I understand that you think you’re view of the world is correct, and there’s nothing wrong with you thinking that, but many of us just don’t share your paradigm or the conclusions you draw from it.

 

[RockAndSage]

As for 20 elk a year, unlike most apparently I hunt. A lot. I average between 14 and 19 a year for the last 5-6 years.

And this was done legally how?

 

[RockAndSage]

Oh, it happened. I witnessed it first hand as did two others.

That works for me, thank you for attesting to it. Between that and the photos from the .223 thread, I'm mostly good. Would definitely like to see video though. It's a hell of a claim.

 

[Formidilosus]

Like I said, I don’t expect you to change your mind on anything, but my judgement is based on what I’ve seen and experienced and what those around me have seen and experienced in rural Wyoming - the ideas aren’t new or old - it’s seen as solid common sense to most people.

I think it’s funny that you have a list to copy and paste to somehow prove what you’re saying, and that you think I’ll change my interpretation of my life experiences based on your list. Lol

I didn’t copy and paste anything, I asked you so I provided mine. I asked you to list what you have killed or personally directly witnessed killed the last two years because there isn’t magic in bullets or killing. You and others claim to see things so vastly different that it defies logical explanation. What I write isn’t based off of small sample sizes, or one offs. Bullets and animals do not vary nearly enough to cause these polar opposite “experiences”- unless the “experience” is one or two animals, or more likely retelling a story that someone else retold. Every single time someone claims that “such and such” bullet blew up on a shoulder, or such and such cartridge or bullet is too small- they can give no details, no wound channel descriptions, no pics, and when pushed hard enough, it’s painfully obvious that their story what they “think” happened, or an outright fabrication.

How many elk does it take exactly to see what a bullet/caliber will do on average? Is 1? Is it 10? Would 40-50 be enough?

You can lay beside me and I can tell you exactly what is going to happen with the wound channel on the elk standing in front of us right before I put a good bullet into from a .224 or .243- or most other combos.

I understand that you think you’re view of the world is correct, and there’s nothing wrong with you thinking that, but many of us just don’t share your paradigm or the conclusions you draw from it.

What exactly do not share in my paradigm? Penetration depth? Wound channel size, anatomy size/shape/location? What is it- be specific please. I do not write “I like”, “I think”, or I “feel”; nor do I write “someone told me”, or “I heard from someone”.

 

[TaperPin]

P

I didn’t copy and paste anything, I asked you so I provided mine. I asked you to list what you have killed or personally directly witnessed killed the last two years because there isn’t magic in bullets or killing. You and others claim to see things so vastly different that it defies logical explanation. What I write isn’t based off of small sample sizes, or one offs. Bullets and animals do not vary nearly enough to cause these polar opposite “experiences”- unless the “experience” is one or two animals, or more likely retelling a story that someone else retold. Every single time someone claims that “such and such” bullet blew up on a shoulder, or such and such cartridge or bullet is too small- they can give no details, no wound channel descriptions, no pics, and when pushed hard enough, it’s painfully obvious that their story what they “think” happened, or an outright fabrication.

How many elk does it take exactly to see what a bullet/caliber will do on average? Is 1? Is it 10? Would 40-50 be enough?

You can lay beside me and I can tell you exactly what is going to happen with the wound channel on the elk standing in front of us right before I put a good bullet into from a .224 or .243- or most other combos.





What exactly do not share in my paradigm? Penetration depth? Wound channel size, anatomy size/shape/location? What is it- be specific please. I do not write “I like”, “I think”, or I “feel”; nor do I write “someone told me”, or “I heard from someone”.

It seems like it’s painful when someone doesn’t agree with you - that must be hard.

You must not have grown up in a rural community out west, or you’d have a better appreciation for how much hunting and shooting knowledge there is here. Much of what you say I tune out because it’s obvious that you’re trying too hard to be right - and some of your stories change. The earliest conversation I can remember about light calibers and semi tough varmint bullets for elk was literally at lunch in 6th grade. It’s nothing new. Everyone’s grand dad or great grand dad hunted with a 250 savage at one time, way back to the 20’s. During my lifetime most families have had a 25-06 and 243 shooting every bullet on the market. Every generation grows up with a dozen different calibers to choose from to take hunting. Every generation a new light bullet/caliber combination is claimed to be the best thing in the world, and it falls a little flat.

Sorry.