Masculinity and Caliber Choice

[JohnJohnson]

 

[fwafwow]

I am getting used to Taper's folksy long stories that usually make me think of a grandfather sitting by the fire reminiscing on lots of old tales passed down from generation to generation. Except with a bunch of references to Priuses.

The problem with folk tales (or conventional wisdom) is that they are often old wives tales that fail upon further evidence. It's not limited to caliber choices, or even hunting. It happens in scientific fields (like the old "stay in bed for six weeks after a heart attack"). If someone starts an argument, or weighs in on one, please follow through and at least provide some more detail. "It's common knowledge" and "common sense" aren't legitimate responses.

And no, I don't care what anyone does, but it would be nice to see some movement in a discussion, as opposed to a bunch of FUQs

 

[yeti12]

P

It seems like it’s painful when someone doesn’t agree with you - that must be hard.

You must not have grown up in a rural community out west, or you’d have a better appreciation for how much hunting and shooting knowledge there is here. Much of what you say I tune out because it’s obvious that you’re trying too hard to be right - and some of your stories change. The earliest conversation I can remember about light calibers and semi tough varmint bullets for elk was literally at lunch in 6th grade. It’s nothing new. Everyone’s grand dad or great grand dad hunted with a 250 savage at one time, way back to the 20’s. During my lifetime most families have had a 25-06 and 243 shooting every bullet on the market. Every generation grows up with a dozen different calibers to choose from to take hunting. Every generation a new light bullet/caliber combination is claimed to be the best thing in the world, and it falls a little flat.

Sorry.

I know your post wasn't pointed at me, but I'll bite.

I didn't grow up around hunting. I didn't even really grow up shooting. I started shooting long range in high school and started hunting a few years after that. I used match bullets cause they were accurate and I knew my dope for them. Never researched if I could use em. So I hunted with them. 10 animals later and hundreds of meals cooked with them people online are telling me I can't use a 6.5 for game animals and I can't use match bullets. But I've done it, and done it at ranges people say you can't do it at. And I've seen others do it. I don't understand the argument. People that do it have no problems and the people who don't do it say it can't be done. I really don't understand the debate. I can send match bullets through car doors and windows and sheetrock, plywood, brick etc and they still work on the other side. And there's tests backing it up. Heavy clothing, barriers etc.

And I'm far from what I would consider good. I only shoot 1200-2000rds a year from a precision rifle/s Then guys who shoot 5rds a year will argue about their 5 shots vs another guys 5 shots. Or less. 1 shot on an animal vs another guys 1 shot.

No one is saying a 300wm with a core lok can't kill an elk. It's just not the most efficient way to do it. I can pull a 20ft 5000lb trailer with a heavy haul semi but a half ton pickup will do the job just as good... if not better...

 

[TaperPin]

I know your post wasn't pointed at me, but I'll bite.

I didn't grow up around hunting. I didn't even really grow up shooting. I started shooting long range in high school and started hunting a few years after that. I used match bullets cause they were accurate and I knew my dope for them. Never researched if I could use em. So I hunted with them. 10 animals later and hundreds of meals cooked with them people online are telling me I can't use a 6.5 for game animals and I can't use match bullets. But I've done it, and done it at ranges people say you can't do it at. And I've seen others do it. I don't understand the argument. People that do it have no problems and the people who don't do it say it can't be done. I really don't understand the debate. I can send match bullets through car doors and windows and sheetrock, plywood, brick etc and they still work on the other side. And there's tests backing it up. Heavy clothing, barriers etc.

And I'm far from what I would consider good. I only shoot 1200-2000rds a year from a precision rifle/s Then guys who shoot 5rds a year will argue about their 5 shots vs another guys 5 shots. Or less. 1 shot on an animal vs another guys 1 shot.

No one is saying a 300wm with a core lok can't kill an elk. It's just not the most efficient way to do it. I can pull a 20ft 5000lb trailer with a heavy haul semi but a half ton pickup will do the job just as good... if not better...

It’s not a complicated topic - either a cartridge kills something or it doesn’t. Every year I may be hunting with one of ten guys - even a 8th grader can watch animals get hit side by side and before long he can tell you which does a better job of killing. Following up a wounded deer or elk, it doesn’t take long to see how far animals can travel when hit in different places with different guns and different loads. Again, this is at an 8th grade level of difficulty. It’s not just my 10 friends, it also our older brothers, our dads, our grand dads, our younger brothers, half the teachers at school, our cousins, and add in everyone’s girl friends wives and mothers, the mailman, the guy that drives the road grater, the hunting nut at the hardware store, the entire staff at the gun store, the owner of the gas station, the game warden down the street who shares stories from his family, the older cousin who is an outfitter, the full time military guy who lives across the road and his extended family, the electrical engineer and his son, the taxidermist and his partner, the butcher, the game processor, and since I worked after school skinning animals for the game processor I might chat with 10 to 30 guys a day about their hunts. The idea that small guns kill just as good and it’s a hidden secret that entire communities just refuse to accept, doesn’t match reality. I moved up from a 270 to 7 mag after watching 4 animals fall side by side and simply liked the performance of the 7 mag and that difference has proven to be true over and over with boring regularity.

Maybe I just need different friends to hunt with, but nobody I know is interested in slow poke cartridges because of what their experiences have been. When the deer are running over the ridge I’d love to have a buddy smack one with a Creedmoor - there’s nothing special about what would happen, but I’m always open to watching this Creedmoor magic.

 

[Wyo_hntr]

View attachment 700637

I'll just post this again cause I love it.

6 arc after going through a car windshield at an angle. Still traveled 17" and held together but yet according to some they explode on entry and don't exit squirrels.

@MCS

Amazing isn't it

 

[philos]

This thread seems to be diverting in all sorts of directions, except the one that it was originally written for. Is there really a need to continue this?

 

[yeti12]

It’s not a complicated topic - either a cartridge kills something or it doesn’t. Every year I may be hunting with one of ten guys - even a 8th grader can watch animals get hit side by side and before long he can tell you which does a better job of killing. Following up a wounded deer or elk, it doesn’t take long to see how far animals can travel when hit in different places with different guns and different loads. Again, this is at an 8th grade level of difficulty. It’s not just my 10 friends, it also our older brothers, our dads, our grand dads, our younger brothers, half the teachers at school, our cousins, and add in everyone’s girl friends wives and mothers, the mailman, the guy that drives the road grater, the hunting nut at the hardware store, the entire staff at the gun store, the owner of the gas station, the game warden down the street who shares stories from his family, the older cousin who is an outfitter, the full time military guy who lives across the road and his extended family, the electrical engineer and his son, the taxidermist and his partner, the butcher, the game processor, and since I worked after school skinning animals for the game processor I might chat with 10 to 30 guys a day about their hunts. The idea that small guns kill just as good and it’s a hidden secret that entire communities just refuse to accept, doesn’t match reality. I moved up from a 270 to 7 mag after watching 4 animals fall side by side and simply liked the performance of the 7 mag and that difference has proven to be true over and over with boring regularity.

Maybe I just need different friends to hunt with, but nobody I know is interested in slow poke cartridges because of what their experiences have been. When the deer are running over the ridge I’d love to have a buddy smack one with a Creedmoor - there’s nothing special about what would happen, but I’m always open to watching this Creedmoor magic.

Any cartridge down to a 22lr can kill...

None of those people listed are a ballistician or experienced long range shooters/competitors. I can have 52 people in a room tomorrow AM and ask them about what cartridge should be used to kill an elk or a deer and they are all going to say magnums of some sort. But all of em will miss a 3moa target at 400yds with said magnums nearly every time. So why should I listen to them? Quite a few of em have lost a significant amount of deer.

Running shots, that's always great. Let's assume a 10mph trot, at 300 yards moving 90 degrees to us? Everyone can do that right? You brought up Creedmoor so let's just go with that compared to your 7 mag.

6.5 creed 144@2750 requires a 64" lead.

7mag 180@2850 requires a 60" lead.

Let's say even 100 yards before you comment and say you would never take a running shot at 300.

At 100 yards,

6.5 creed 20"
7 mag 19" lead

And for fun... a 6 creed... 18" lead...

Now if I was a betting man, I'd guess that even with a 4" difference at 300 between a creed and your 7 mag you wouldn't hit a 2moa moving target, probably not even 3 or 4moa target at that distance. Even with time to prepare and a steady rest. Probably don't even know the lead you need at various yardages. If you did you wouldn't have brought it up to try and prove a point. If I missed center of a 10mph moving target at 100yds I wasn't prepared for, offhand, by 1" I'd be very happy.


Funny how people always bring up Creedmoor. We were talking about 223's and I mentioned I used a 6.5 never said what 6.5. Headstamp doesn't matter. Impact velocities and bullet construction does.

 

[ElPollo]

P

It seems like it’s painful when someone doesn’t agree with you - that must be hard.

You must not have grown up in a rural community out west, or you’d have a better appreciation for how much hunting and shooting knowledge there is here. Much of what you say I tune out because it’s obvious that you’re trying too hard to be right - and some of your stories change. The earliest conversation I can remember about light calibers and semi tough varmint bullets for elk was literally at lunch in 6th grade. It’s nothing new. Everyone’s grand dad or great grand dad hunted with a 250 savage at one time, way back to the 20’s. During my lifetime most families have had a 25-06 and 243 shooting every bullet on the market. Every generation grows up with a dozen different calibers to choose from to take hunting. Every generation a new light bullet/caliber combination is claimed to be the best thing in the world, and it falls a little flat.

Sorry.

 

[ElPollo]

It’s not a complicated topic - either a cartridge kills something or it doesn’t.

Form is up on you 21 to 0 with them wee little pansy cartridges.

 

[Grundy53]

I don’t see a lot of talk about less than ideal angles - as if deer and elk stand sideways looking pretty just waiting to be shot. In my world, both are quick to hightail it out of the country, over a saddle or over a ridge. I think it’s a good noble sign that small caliber folks claim to happily let an animal go that’s a hard quartering or going away shot. Lightly constructed bullets just aren’t cutout for this. It doesn’t seem like a minor compromise to let an animal go that would be easy to anchor with a larger tougher bullet.

There’s nothing wrong with broadside shots with lightly constructed bullets from small calibers and I wouldn’t hesitate to take a shot with 77 gr TMK, I’ll continue to loan out a 243, and will probably take something with the new 6BR barrel. However, when I’m spending years to find a big animal, the more angles I can shoot it from the better, and a heavy/fast controlled expansion bullet has been a reliable killer since the preteen days reading Mad Magazine at the grocery store. For 95% of all shots I expect the bullet to barely expends any energy on the pass through, because on that difficult going away 5% shot it needs all the penetration and horsepower it can get.

Then you haven't actually read any of those small caliber threads. Because there has been plenty talk about less than ideal angles. There have also been a lot of pictures of deer, elk and even moose shoulders with holes blown through them by these baby bullets. You have been flat out told by people that they have taken quartering shots with small bullets. Yet here you are still acting like the only way small bullets work is with perfect broadside shots. But go on. Tell us how we are wrong again...



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[TaperPin]

Any cartridge down to a 22lr can kill...

None of those people listed are a ballistician or experienced long range shooters/competitors. I can have 52 people in a room tomorrow AM and ask them about what cartridge should be used to kill an elk or a deer and they are all going to say magnums of some sort. But all of em will miss a 3moa target at 400yds with said magnums nearly every time. So why should I listen to them? Quite a few of em have lost a significant amount of deer.

Running shots, that's always great. Let's assume a 10mph trot, at 300 yards moving 90 degrees to us? Everyone can do that right? You brought up Creedmoor so let's just go with that compared to your 7 mag.

6.5 creed 144@2750 requires a 64" lead.

7mag 180@2850 requires a 60" lead.

Let's say even 100 yards before you comment and say you would never take a running shot at 300.

At 100 yards,

6.5 creed 20"
7 mag 19" lead

And for fun... a 6 creed... 18" lead...

Now if I was a betting man, I'd guess that even with a 4" difference at 300 between a creed and your 7 mag you wouldn't hit a 2moa moving target, probably not even 3 or 4moa target at that distance. Even with time to prepare and a steady rest. Probably don't even know the lead you need at various yardages. If you did you wouldn't have brought it up to try and prove a point. If I missed center of a 10mph moving target at 100yds I wasn't prepared for, offhand, by 1" I'd be very happy.


Funny how people always bring up Creedmoor. We were talking about 223's and I mentioned I used a 6.5 never said what 6.5. Headstamp doesn't matter. Impact velocities and bullet construction does.

If you want to shoot a cartridge, just go right ahead - I’m happy for you. I was serious when I said it would be great if my hunting partners used a wider variety of cartridges.

You must be the only person on Rokslide that has ever expressed the slightest ability to know moving target lead - something more people should know. You’re right I wouldn’t know how many inches to lead anything at any range. Instead I know the flight time and know a few spoken words that correspond to that flight time - simply watch the horizontal movement against something fixed around the animal and bingo bongo that’s the lead for any speed, and any angle - the deer could be moon walking backwards, or doing summersaults.

 

[TaperPin]

Then you haven't actually read any of those small caliber threads. Because there has been plenty talk about less than ideal angles. There have also been a lot of pictures of deer, elk and even moose shoulders with holes blown through them by these baby bullets. You have been flat out told by people that they have taken quartering shots with small bullets. Yet here you are still acting like the only way small bullets work is with perfect broadside shots. But go on. Tell us how we are wrong again...



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So all someone has to do is read a post on a forum and they will be much smarter? Wow.

 

[Grundy53]

So all someone has to do is read a post on a forum and they will be much smarter? Wow.

It helps if you actually use some critical thinking with it. Definitely more educational than burying your head in the sand and speaking out your rear end.

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[Shō[t]gun]

You must be the only person on Rokslide that has ever expressed the slightest ability to know moving target lead - something more people should know. You’re right I wouldn’t know how many inches to lead anything at any range. Instead I know the flight time and know a few spoken words that correspond to that flight time - simply watch the horizontal movement against something fixed around the animal and bingo bongo that’s the lead for any speed, and any angle - the deer could be moon walking backwards, or doing summersaults.

You went too far with that one and blew your troll cover. Gigs up now.

 

[Bubbadoyle]

The problem is these people don’t own enough rifles in different cartridges. I’ve taken whitetails with cartridges from .22 hornet to 300 RUM and .458 socom and I have zero issues using any of those if my hunting situation is right for the ballistics of that cartridge. I’ve taken them with a muzzleloader as well. They all work well when used within the limits of the ammo you’re shooting out of them. The biggest fails I’ve seen is from a .300 RUM shooting a bullet with too light of a construction and this was witnessed twice on two well placed behind the shoulder broadside shots on whitetails. One was recovered and the other was not. I mention this to point out that just shooting a bigger faster bullet does not necessarily mean an increase in performance.


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[mxgsfmdpx]

I was a .308 and .30-06 hunter forever, it’s what I was told to use on big game and I listened.

I made the switch to match style bullets out of my 6mm and 6.5mm varmint rifles for killing all game sizes about 15 years ago now. I’ve mixed it up with some 7mm variants over the years but I can tell you this… No animals died “more dead” with .30 cals and 7mms. Anyone who makes this claim honestly just doesn’t kill enough animals every year.

Shoot whatever rifle and chambering you shoot the best and can spend time shooting as often as possible. For me that happens to be Sakos and Tikkas in .260 Rem, .243, and .223.

Have fun and enjoy it! If you aren’t having fun and enjoying shooting/hunting then why are you even doing it?

 

[jimh406]

It helps if you actually use some critical thinking with it.

Why would TaperPin think all he has seen is "wrong", and instead, believe what people post on the internet to ignore all of his previous experience? That's not critical ... it's ignoring the other set of data.

Most of use will probably continue down our paths until there is a reason to make a change.

 

[TaperPin]

You went too far with that one and blew your troll cover. Gigs up now.

It works - there’s a post about it.

 

[Grundy53]

Why would TaperPin think all he has seen is "wrong", and instead, believe what people post on the internet to ignore all of his previous experience? That's not critical ... it's ignoring the other set of data.

Most of use will probably continue down our paths until there is a reason to make a change.

The hundreds of necropsy photos?

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[PNWGATOR]

If you want to shoot a cartridge, just go right ahead - I’m happy for you. I was serious when I said it would be great if my hunting partners used a wider variety of cartridges.

You must be the only person on Rokslide that has ever expressed the slightest ability to know moving target lead - something more people should know. You’re right I wouldn’t know how many inches to lead anything at any range. Instead I know the flight time and know a few spoken words that correspond to that flight time - simply watch the horizontal movement against something fixed around the animal and bingo bongo that’s the lead for any speed, and any angle - the deer could be moon walking backwards, or doing summersaults.