Let's talk grazing on public lands...

[eye_zick]

Cattle grazing negatively effects mule deer habitat.

Even conservative cattle grazing practices are designed to promote grassland. Grasses out compete shrub seedlings; shrub ranges convert to grasslands. As the habitat goes, so do the deer. Conversely, it seems to improve elk habitat.

I dont have a problem with cattle grazing, but important winter ranges and transitional habitats need to be safeguarded. I would love to perpetuate the hunting opportunity for our children and grandchildren. Its our responsibility to be good stewards of the land and have our focus be on the next generations, not have cheaper beef.

 

[realunlucky]

How are you guys making the fair market value argument about cattle grazing but not looking In the mirror and applying that to hunting ? Let’s see maybe 50 bucks for your resident elk tag versus 5000+ for a private land elk hunt ? We are ALL getting a good deal here now shut up and enjoy it while it lasts

I see you'd be sad to lose your lease or having to pay more for the privilege? Luckily for allotment holders long term agreements prevent someone else from paying more for those same rights.

This isn't about hunting, it's about managing the public land use in the best interest of it's stake holders.

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[jmcd22]

You're barking up the wrong tree.

Take your concerns to the US Forest Service. The land responsibility lands in their venue. They may not know what ranchers are doing.

In some of the areas I hunt, the ranchers are required to switch grazing patterns every year. [One year they start higher and push down, the next year start low and push higher]

According to the USFS, this is to let the wild grasses and wild flowers not to be grazed at the same time, year after year.

I also know that the USFS will listen to valid concerns. But not so much to complaints about cow pies.

I work in the industry so I understand the producer's point and I obviously have my views because I hunt. I like what Cnelk brings up here in that the USFS may not know what the ranchers are doing. This holds true in a lot of places in Idaho that are remote. Those guys may only get back to those places a few times a year at best, if at all.

The other point he brings up are the grazing patterns that some producers are supposed to abide by. MOST are pretty good at following these guidelines but you will always have some that do not care and going back to my first point of the USFS (or BLM) may not get to these places often. This year, I have a really good elk tag by Idaho standards and there are no cows to be seen in the area when there typically are. The area has, from what I've been told, allotments that require producers to completely destock the area for the entire year. Basically X years on, X years off. Kind of what Cnelk alluded to. I am not sure how receptive USFS or BLM are to concerns but I think it's worth a phone call. If they aren't receptive, you could always play the "squeaky wheel gets the oil" card.

 

[gelton]

This is how we operate. Unfortunately, this is not how animals are managed on public lands most of the time

I think this whole issue could be averted by having a public auction for grazing rights (I think the reality is that the price will go up but not by much, as you know the margins are razor-thin) and by imposing rules that mandate rotational grazing.

However, I don't think the geniuses in the guvmint or the USduh (also known as USDA) would support that because in general they promote using chemical fertilizers, herbicides, and feeding grain to herbivores.

 

[realunlucky]

Intellectual dishonesty? So there are 90 million head of cattle on the same lands the bison used

This is like wrestling with pigs

Bison use less feed and considerably less water than cattle.

Adding all cattle isn't a fair comparison as a majority are utilizing private ground that has been manicured to maximize thier prosperity.

Plenty of public ground feed is pillaged without recourse and it's most valuable resource WATER is redirected to maximize the benefit to free ranging cattle.

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[Trial153]

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beef2live.com

 

[Wetwork]

I have bison right across the fence from me...right across. Two of the bulls went walk-about two weeks ago and I helped move them back...after they trashed my fences. I assure you they use just as much as my cattle, if not more water. The rancher bought the property we used to lease that borders mine. I know exactly how much water is on his place and what he's had to do to increase the water there. I hope you are explaining to us about bison because you own some. Maybe his herd of bison differes from others.-WW

Bison use less feed and considerably less water than cattle.

Adding all cattle isn't a fair comparison as a majority are utilizing private ground that has been manicured to maximize thier prosperity.

Plenty of public ground feed is pillaged without recourse and it's most valuable resource WATER is redirected to maximize the benefit to free ranging cattle.

 

[realunlucky]

I have bison right across the fence from me...right across. Two of the bulls went walk-about two weeks ago and I helped move them back...after they trashed my fences. I assure you they use just as much as my cattle, if not more water. The rancher bought the property we used to lease that borders mine. I know exactly how much water is on his place and what he's had to do to increase the water there. I hope you are explaining to us about bison because you own some. Maybe his herd of bison differes from others.-WW

Well I'm not sure about your neighbor but we do have a few free ranging bison herds here in Utah. I did get that information from the biologist when I drew a Utah tag. Perhaps he just didn't study them as intensely as he should. Here's snipbit I found in a research paper

Forage intake rate and grazing maybe much greater in cattle than bison, even with similar densities. My simple takeaway was that bison consumed less.

Cliff notes-- no one knows how much water bison need, bison get nearly a quarter of thier water from the food they consume

 

[Chucklehead]

"The USFS or BLM negotiated those leases, go talk to them."

I believe that is what folks are saying on this forum. Let the open market control the price. If the cost of beef goes up, so be it.

The point being made is that if the open market grazing rate on private land is $25/$30 per AUM per month, then what the hell are the Forest Service and BLM doing selling it for $1.30/month? Literally a 95%+ discount to fair market value!? The government has a duty to manage pricing on its assets to the benefit of ALL citizens.

I know this: a 6000+acre drainage I hunted last year had 400 AUMS, so 400 cows and 400 calves. The rancher was paying approx $1.30/AUM x 400 = $520 dollars per month to graze his 800 cattle on that land. Even if the rancher paid for 12 months, the total fee paid to control all grazing on 6,000+ acres was $6240 for the entire YEAR.

I have NO doubt that I could round up 10 hunters to pay $620 each for the right to hunt that drainage w/o any cattle grazing it. There should have been AMPLE grass and elk/mule deer in that drainage, but it was grazed to absolute stubble and I saw ZERO elk.

The Grinch himself could not have done a better job than that rancher of grabbing every blade of grass.

JL

"If the cost of beef goes up, so be it" Go tell that to the single mom who want to feed her kids hamburger helper for dinner and it costs $20 bucks for a package of ground... I'd re-think that mentality.

Some of your figures are fuzzy math, here is some of the reasons why:
-Not all acres are created equal. Where is that $25/$30 figure coming from? Probably a perfect pasture with tons of grass, good water and good fence, that can support a good sized heard in a small space.
-how much of that 6000 acres was good grass? Half? Third? Quarter? How much of the good grass is fenced in so the rancher doesn't have to pay for acres he doesn't use? Who pays for fence? Landowners, thats who.
- Think of how much more manpower and time it takes to check cows up on the mountains vs in a valley floor.
All this (and more) makes that public lease worth less than a prime private lease. Its just not as simple as you describe.

Is there room for discussion here? Probably. But when you tell an anecdotal story about how there was no elk in your spot and its the rancher fault and he isn't paying enough, it just comes off as sour grapes.

 

[gelton]

Bison use less feed and considerably less water than cattle.

Adding all cattle isn't a fair comparison as a majority are utilizing private ground that has been manicured to maximize thier prosperity.

Plenty of public ground feed is pillaged without recourse and it's most valuable resource WATER is redirected to maximize the benefit to free ranging cattle.

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Cattle were here long before public lands and private ground. They are herbivores, not much different than Bison. The Feds have a mandate to manage public lands for multi-use and they have failed. So, as others have said, put the blame where it lies.

The argument is like blaming wall street bankers for accepting the bailout money from TARP in 2008. They were given the money from the FED....they didn't take it, they were offered it.

There are plenty of ways to mitigate the current situation and almost none of them include skyrocketing the costs of public grazing. In fact, most all of them point to better management, which benefits all, including natural wildlife, and whose responsibilities lie squarely on the different government agencies whose sole purpose is managing this land.

The failure here is in the management of the lands, not the ranchers.

 

[Chucklehead]

I think this whole issue could be averted by having a public auction for grazing rights (I think the reality is that the price will go up but not by much, as you know the margins are razor-thin) and by imposing rules that mandate rotational grazing.

However, I don't think the geniuses in the guvmint or the USduh (also known as USDA) would support that because in general they promote using chemical fertilizers, herbicides, and feeding grain to herbivores.

I hate to see public auction. Mostly because I've seen what happens when you pit friend vs friend and neighbor vs neighbor in an auction. Often it turns into modern day Hatfields & McCoys.
And look I'm all for regenerative ag practices. But the truth is, we aren't going to feed the world using grass fed livestock and composted crops. At least not right now anyway. I'd like to think we are moving in the right direction though.

 

[gelton]

I hate to see public auction. Mostly because I've seen what happens when you pit friend vs friend and neighbor vs neighbor in an auction. Often it turns into modern day Hatfields & McCoys.
And look I'm all for regenerative ag practices. But the truth is, we aren't going to feed the world using grass fed livestock and composted crops. At least not right now anyway. I'd like to think we are moving in the right direction though.

I agree in part, but man, I live in a rural area where there are huge lots of pastures where cattle are just left to roam and there are huge plots of land growing corn for silage, not for people.

Throw in all of the land used for corn to be converted to Ethanol and it's not a pipe dream that this country could be fed from grass-fed cattle raised on regenerative pastures.

I am seriously considering contacting the large cattle ranchers around me and offering a custom grazing service. Conventional wisdom says otherwise though.

 

[Poser]

Let’s talk domestic sheep and the very real and direct threat they pose to big horn sheep, with numerous big horn herds having to be killed by game agencies after contact with domestic sheep. The impacts of sheep herding are very different from cattle due to the fact that they stay highly concentrated and require dogs to tend them.

 

[gelton]

Let’s talk domestic sheep and the very real and direct threat they pose to big horn sheep, with numerous big horn herds having to be killed by game agencies after contact with domestic sheep. The impacts of sheep herding are very different from cattle due to the fact that they stay highly concentrated and require dogs to tend them.

No comment on the Bighorn sheep aspect because I only have a general knowledge on the issue but sheep actually provide a service that cattle don't in that they prefer invasive species and weeds that cattle pass by.

But again, it's all about management, they have to be moved. So the question becomes whose job is it to manage our public lands? It certainly isn't the rancher.

 

[Wetwork]

Well I'm not sure about your neighbor but we do have a few free ranging bison herds here in Utah. I did get that information from the biologist when I drew a Utah tag. Perhaps he just didn't study them as intensely as he should. Here's snipbit I found in a research paper

Forage intake rate and grazing maybe much greater in cattle than bison, even with similar densities. My simple takeaway was that bison consumed less.

In short, to my eyes and having good friends who actually ranch bison...cattle are lazy, bison are not. Bison are always on the move eating and drinking. Bison will sidestep a forest fire (that I've seen), cattle will watch it til it burn's them up. Cattle need fancy food and extra minerals. Bison gleen on the move and are not picky they eat weeds and all sorts of crap. But if you put bison in a pasture, lock them down basically, they do the same damage as a cow would. Right now in my neck of the woods with no rain nothing is growing back this year. The bison herd over the fence is in just as much trouble as mine. If the grass got clipped down in the spring it did not grow back. Poof looks like a desert here now, no grass grew back. If you let grass grow above four inches and never let the cattle or bison eat shorter than that, and keep up a constant rotation, generally speaking, and with rain you can keep moving the herds well into the late fall without having to do real irrigation. What folks on here have called rotational grazing is now, in most parts of the world called cell-grazing. I don't know of any rancher who uses irrigated pastures who doesn't do it. You can even cell graze piviots if you put a water trough in jus the right spot.-WW

 

[realunlucky]

Cattle were here long before public lands and private ground. They are herbivores, not much different than Bison

They have very different dietary needs. Bison consume grasses and browse while cattle focus on forbes.

The actual point was there's more cattle now because private is manicured for exactly that purpose. So to compare numbers past to present isn't an accurate comparison.

Who wants skyrocketing beef prices? Why are we locking out the majority of Americans from even the opportunity to give this a try? After all they are an equal share holder right? The ability to transport large quantities of livestock long distances broadens the likelihood of more interest in obtaining an allotment. After all who doesn't want to drop thier cattle off in early spring and ship them to sale barn on October 2nd for only a minimal allotment fee.


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[gelton]

They have very different dietary needs. Bison consume grasses and browse while cattle focus on forbes.

The actual point was there's more cattle now because private is manicured for exactly that purpose. So to compare numbers past to present isn't an accurate comparison.

Who wants skyrocketing beef prices? Why are we locking out the majority of Americans from even the opportunity to give this a try? After all they are an equal share holder right? The ability to transport large quantities of livestock long distances broadens the likelihood of more interest in obtaining an allotment. After all who doesn't want to drop thier cattle off in early spring and ship them to sale barn on October 2nd for only a minimal allotment fee.


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But who created this environment, ranchers or government? Don’t hate the player hate the game.

As Newberg pointed out recently about a representative in Montana that Clark county was named after - “I never bought a politician that wasn’t for sale.”

 

[realunlucky]

But who created this environment, ranchers or government? Don’t hate the player hate the game.

As Newberg pointed out recently about a representative in Montana that Clark county was named after - “I never bought a politician that wasn’t for sale.”

I thought the point of this thread was that the game needs changed.

The players are more invested in crying that everything is fine look away, than the public at large is at saying what is with all this special interest fuckery happening with public lands.

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[gelton]

I thought the point of this thread was that the game needs changed.

The players are more invested in crying that everything is fine look away, than the public at large is at saying what is with all this special interest fuckery happening with public lands.

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And what initiatives have you heard about from the "local" BLM or DOW? Seems like the good ole boy club is doing just fine.

 

[realunlucky]

And what initiatives have you heard about from the "local" BLM or DOW? Seems like the good ole boy club is doing just fine.

Exactly-- one group loves the ease of predictive over sight and the other the ease of watching thier financial growth.


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