Let's talk grazing on public lands...

[ndmarine]

Not worth calling anyone out directly, but so many people in this thread obviously driven by jealously over this issue. Jealous over ranchers who have public land leases, jealous over landowner tags you don't get. A good sign its time to take a look at your own position in life and how you got there. Way too many folks have been told it's OK to stand around with your hands out waiting for the government, or to point your finger at your neighbor and ask why you don't have the same opportunity.

The flip side to jealousy is entitlement. Many people on here are simply raising fair questions about how PUBLIC land should be used. It seems as if some ranchers now feel entitled to those grazing rights. And I don’t think concern over unequal treatment (entitlements) is unfounded or is rooted in jealousy.

As far as standing around waiting for government handouts - I think the ranching and farming industry may comprise the largest welfare system we have in the US. I’m a total republican but also an independent thinker and willing to admit that welfare comes in different forms. Some of the very people calling for reduction in food stamps are quietly hoping the voting public doesn’t catch on that some welfare queens drive tractors and wear overalls, some wear suits and drive maseratis, and some wear cowboy hats and drive new dodge rams…

 

[realunlucky]

Not worth calling anyone out directly, but so many people in this thread obviously driven by jealously over this issue. Jealous over ranchers who have public land leases, jealous over landowner tags you don't get. A good sign its time to take a look at your own position in life and how you got there. Way too many folks have been told it's OK to stand around with your hands out waiting for the government, or to point your finger at your neighbor and ask why you don't have the same opportunity.

What's a grazing allotment if not a government handout? Government subsidized ranching welfare for a select few.

 

[Squincher]

I'll bet there is even a way they can deduct the cost of their grazing fees from their taxes.

 

[Goatboy22]

I haven't read through this thread yet, so I hope I'm not saying something someone else has said. I've been a Range Management Specialist for the US Forest Service for 30 plus years in Colorado, Wyoming, Utah and Nevada. There are good permittees and bad permittees, just like folks in any cross section of society. I've also adminstered Outfitter/Guide permits for hunting outfitters, and some are good and some suck, but are still permitted if they meet the requirements. Just because you wear a cowboy hat doesn't mean you're good or bad. A couple of thoughts, again stating that I don't know what's been said previously and will read them when I have time. Many grazing permittees on National Forest lands winter deer and elk herds on their Base Property (private land), so there are impacts from the (states) wildlife on their forage base, which is a trade off. Take that as you will. Some of this open space and wildlife winter range would probably be sold and covered with trophy homes if it weren't for Public Land grazing permits. In Colorado, grazing permittees complain a lot about coming potential wolf impacts, but have been complaining about the high elk numbers for a lot of years on National Forest, so I have limited sympathy for that. Folks should be aware that 50% of the low grazing fees that they pay also comes back to the Forest Service in "Range Betterment" funds for water development, fences, etc, to help inprove "their" grazing allotments, which means they actually pay even less for their grazing privileges than folks think. Lots goes into public lands grazing. Making the hard decisions is many times political suicide for us range cons, so to have any success you have to be politically astute to make any progress and survive. I am an advocate of public lands grazing if done properly. Getting folks to agree on what is proper is the hard part, especially during drought years. These folks rely on their grazing allotments for their livelylhoods, and few are getting rich. I've barely scratched the surface here. Don't get me started on fire.........

 

[Okhotnik]

You get it. Most people don't realize that cattle and sheep are the main reason for a lack of lower elevation winter food. Livestock are the number one reason we need winter feeding grounds for deer and elk. The fact that they only graze a short period actually makes the management worse because most managers are not concerned with winter forage quality because that doesn't benefit them.

Of course sky rocketing wolf populations pushing elk and mule deer out of the back country onto ranchers' hay and alfalfa fields are the ranchers' fault too. Good thing Colorado approved more wolves in their state to help the wildlife thrive too lol

 

[Billy Goat]

This is a tough one.

Chronic Wasting Disease is the result of Sheep grazing among the wild herds of elk, deer, etc.

40% of deer whose blood was sampled in 2021 in the upper midwest had contracted Coronavirus.

Food in this country is cheaper than it has ever been... and as others have noted we waste a significant portion of it.

I love a ribeye as much as the next guy... but it seems as though more balance and enforcement is needed. But that of course means "big government" gets a little bigger--which is a hard sell among many hunters.

Good to know on the October 1st date in CO! I would absolutely shoot a cow if I'm striking out on elk...

I haven't read much of this, I'm just checking in.


But cwd is the same as scrapie in sheep. No positive cases of scrapie in sheep in usa, no mad cow disease. Same disease.


We get tested all the time, way more than the cwd testing.


Spongiform Encephalopathy is widely tested for in domestic animals.


Not present.

 

[jmez]

CWD is same class of disease, caused by a prion. Not the same as scrapie, or BSE.

There are + scrapie tests every year in US.

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[Billy Goat]

CWD is same class of disease, caused by a prion. Not the same as scrapie, or BSE.

There are + scrapie tests every year in US.

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I'm not aware of a classical scrapie positive test.


Has that happened?

It's a prion, but I know on my farm I'm far more likely to have it come from whitetail than from my animals passing it

 

[jmez]

Yes, there are a few positives every year for scrapie. Not many but definitely present in US sheep and goat herd.

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[JohnB]

Thanks Goatboy. I appreciate the insight into the range conservation world.

 

[Stubborn_bowhunter]

I personally think forcing ranchers to fence in would be the best scenario.
They still get to graze, but they have to actively check the cattle and keep them fenced in specific areas.

I know a lot of land owners who get their land trashed because they don't have fence to stop the cattle. (NM is a fence out state)

I've also heard that cattle.have a negative impact on trout habitat.

I know a few places that are essentially inaccessible by vehicle, so they cut out closed habitat to make it easy for them to access their cattle in places that shouldn't even have cattle in them.
There's been a few times in different spots where they don't even get the cattle out for winter because they're in such shit hole canyons.

I've seen cattle ruining trout lakes in Pecos wilderness where they're not even supposed to be at.
it's unfortunate seeing clear mountain lake become a shit puddle.

 

[Billy Goat]

Thanks Goatboy. I appreciate the insight into the range conservation world.

If this is at me, I get it. But I don't think it's totally founded.


I'm an eastern farmer, we lost our public grazing rights in the 30's. I'm not at all saying public lands don't get abused, I have been appalled by what I have seen at times. However when people are allowed to abuse the system, they will.



I have been involved pretty heavily in the scrapie program. I sell animals for research and I need them to test clean on a whole range of tests. I'm relatively familiar on what is going on, tho maybe we have had a classical scrapie positive, tho I thought that was only in Europe.


On the conservation side, yeah familiar with that too. I have a whole business devoted to habitat restoration. I don't do western reclamation, I work in song birds mainly now. Work with many of the eastern universities doing bird and pollinator habitat, mainly trying to figure out how to work within confines of make private ground profitable for landowners while still providing habitat for ground nesting birds along with the invertebrate food sources while being grazed by ungulates.


So tell me what I'm doing for the range conservation world. I guess it just ain't enough.


Sorry it doesn't apply to the western lands.

 

[JohnB]

If this is at me, I get it. But I don't think it's totally founded.


I'm an eastern farmer, we lost our public grazing rights in the 30's. I'm not at all saying public lands don't get abused, I have been appalled by what I have seen at times. However when people are allowed to abuse the system, they will.



I have been involved pretty heavily in the scrapie program. I sell animals for research and I need them to test clean on a whole range of tests. I'm relatively familiar on what is going on, tho maybe we have had a classical scrapie positive, tho I thought that was only in Europe.


On the conservation side, yeah familiar with that too. I have a whole business devoted to habitat restoration. I don't do western reclamation, I work in song birds mainly now. Work with many of the eastern universities doing bird and pollinator habitat, mainly trying to figure out how to work within confines of make private ground profitable for landowners while still providing habitat for ground nesting birds along with the invertebrate food sources while being grazed by ungulates.


So tell me what I'm doing for the range conservation world. I guess it just ain't enough.


Sorry it doesn't apply to the western lands.

That was aimed at goatboy22 who talked about working for the Forest Service doing range work. It's cool to read some about what you are doing on the east side of the country Billygoat. Where I am in WA and in my profession as a fish biologist the grazing issues I see frequently involve cows in streams or in the riparian habitat where they are not "supposed" to be.

Billygoat would you write a bit more about scrapiess? I've got no idea what that is.

 

[Billy Goat]

That was aimed at goatboy22 who talked about working for the Forest Service doing range work. It's cool to read some about what you are doing on the east side of the country Billygoat. Where I am in WA and in my profession as a fish biologist the grazing issues I see frequently involve cows in streams or in the riparian habitat where they are not "supposed" to be.

Billygoat would you write a bit more about scrapiess? I've got no idea what that is.

Yeah, I came to this late. I saw something about goat and felt it was aimed at me.


So scrapie is spongiform encephalopathy, same as mad cow, cwd, likely similar to CJD. If I can remember correctly there's several other variation of it in other animal realms. The breakdown of it, causes a loss of motor skills, basically the brain is full of worm holes from the prions. The prions can be passed from animal to animal in different fluid, first thought to mainly be maternal, but now it seems through intake. Meaning if you eat brain or spinal mater, you can then host the prions. Some research is showing a transfer through fecal or urinal mater also. That's why we are seeing bans of feeding/mineral sites in the areas of cwd. They are trying to contain it, likely futile, but an attempt.




It's going to be a difficult hurdle in the future. I have already dealt with parasites transfered to my flock from WT. I try to manage everything to coexist, however the WT are already becoming a nuisance for feed, when they are carriers, my cull hunts will intensify.




This has been my redneck response. I'll try to answer anything else I can,bit it will likely require me to make a few contacts to get the answers.



Oh, I forgot.

F-u-c-k cows in streams. Our trout streams been hurting. Sheep/goats hate water.


Put your rubber boots on, they back up.

Wink.


Gets lonely out there.

 

[Billy Goat]

Again, I have missed a lot of this, however a comment I'll make that maybe has already been brought up.


Rotate allotments.

Cattle graze different than sheep. Goats are just stupid and eat what everything else thinks is inedible.




I don't ever have a single source solution for habitat, it takes a rotation. Honestly, the best thing might be well regulated sheep. But certain animals only target certain types of plants, cattle are grass grazers, sheep are equal opportunity ( as everyone knows cause they overgraze and everything leaves) goats will pretty much just do forbs and leave grass, horrible for deer.




I'm friends with big producers, but if you see abuse, turn it in. No group is good at policing itself, but ultimately that is the hindrance.
I have very ashamed of what I have seen at times, also I have seen what I thought was good management.
Without regrowth in some areas, there would be no winter feed, but it takes careful management.

 

[TheTone]

Someone mentioned being jealous of the private land ranchers have worked hard for. Many ranchers and private landowners near me have acquired things through sweetheart deals none of us will every have access to. I’ve seen deeds for one of the largest landowners near me, big chunks of land listed at purchase prices of $1/acre or less. Think they would be willing to sell me the land for $2/acre? Or how about chipping off a quarter section for free as a homestead?

 

[Sdieffen]

Late to this thread and haven't read everything....I'm a rancher from Florida, we have no public land grazing to speak of. Maybe some of the bombing ranges but they come with their own issues.

Are you OK with elk and deer eating ranchers stockpile of winter feed once the snow pushes them out of our hunting grounds and us not having to pay for it. Should only residents of a state hunt that state? In regards to corporate welfare, last year was the first time I received anything from the government. $33/head and we still lost money on our calves, have been losing/break even for about 6 years. Do you like hamburger at 4.99? Milk at 4 per gallon. If the government didn't meddle in it you wouldn't eat or pay exorbitant prices.

We have to get along, there are compromises to us hunting public land, i.e. we can't have it to ourselves. I don't like litterbugs, and I find plenty nonresident like myself every year that act like they own the place and leave their trash. Ranchers and farmers are the original stewards of the land. If you let the highest bidder rent it then the people with the deepest pockets will lobby to run us off and not to be able to hunt it. This topic is broad and deeper than I care to type about on a cellphone keyboard. There are many aspects that we may disagree with but we have to accept the compromise, otherwise we are no better than the typical liberal always getting in your business trying to change what you enjoy and take it away.

 

[TheTone]

Lots of ranchers get paid for damage done by wildlife. IME protecting stored crops/feed from wildlife is easy if you just decide to do so. I’ve fenced and paneled a tons of hay over the years and in every instance it was predictable and preventable. Some great examples: ranchers doesn’t close barn doors and elk get in, just too much work to open and close the doors every day; hay gets left in the field too long and now can’t get tractor into muddy field to get hay. It’s really fun to spend a bunch of time and effort protecting hay and then watched it get piled and burned later

 

[realunlucky]

Late to this thread and haven't read everything....I'm a rancher from Florida, we have no public land grazing to speak of. Maybe some of the bombing ranges but they come with their own issues.

Are you OK with elk and deer eating ranchers stockpile of winter feed once the snow pushes them out of our hunting grounds and us not having to pay for it. Should only residents of a state hunt that state? In regards to corporate welfare, last year was the first time I received anything from the government. $33/head and we still lost money on our calves, have been losing/break even for about 6 years. Do you like hamburger at 4.99? Milk at 4 per gallon. If the government didn't meddle in it you wouldn't eat or pay exorbitant prices.

We have to get along, there are compromises to us hunting public land, i.e. we can't have it to ourselves. I don't like litterbugs, and I find plenty nonresident like myself every year that act like they own the place and leave their trash. Ranchers and farmers are the original stewards of the land. If you let the highest bidder rent it then the people with the deepest pockets will lobby to run us off and not to be able to hunt it. This topic is broad and deeper than I care to type about on a cellphone keyboard. There are many aspects that we may disagree with but we have to accept the compromise, otherwise we are no better than the typical liberal always getting in your business trying to change what you enjoy and take it away.

Maybe the government should medle to make all industries better afterall look at the giant favor they did everyone by getting involved in your lively hood.

Quick question where do you think that money comes from to keep burger from being $4

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[Bighorner]

I think there is some middle ground here. It's not the fact that there are cows on fed leases, it is the fact that some of these leases get abused. It is absolutely crazy to try and point a figure at one group and condemn all of them. The range cons, the ranchers, and the general public all need to be accountable.

I am more familiar with the BLM and their mandate is multiple use. That is habitat, minerals, grazing and recreational use. If you see abuse take five minutes to document it and call it in. Follow up to make sure someone took you serious. Pick up a little trash when you come across it. Everyone needs to take some ownership.

Thank you to the folks bringing to knowledge to this discussion rather than just complain.

The idea of shutting people out of our public lands is crazy. We are some of the most fortunate people on earth to have access to millions of acres. If we acknowledge that that resource comes with some level of responsibility we will all be better off.