Lead it go

[wesfromky]

Short film on going lead free, posted without comment or judgement, at least from me. I just like the filmmakers other work and this popped into my feed, so thought I would post it here for you all to have yet another lead vs mono debate...

 

[SkiParkGuy]

Great film, thanks for posting that.

 

[sawatch]

Thanks for sharing. Been using copper minis for ages, love em.

 

[Wrench]

Having worked on scientific studies on wildlife, I can tell you that any outcome you want can be purchased.

Follow the money.

 

[jolemons]

Having worked on scientific studies on wildlife, I can tell you that any outcome you want can be purchased.

Follow the money.

What outcome are you suggesting is falsified?

Sent from my SM-S936U using Tapatalk

 

[Bugger]

It’s pretty easy to create whatever narrative you want if you make unsupported assumptions. I guarantee that chunk of metal in the xray wasn’t a bullet fragment, otherwise they would have pulled it out on camera for a smoking gun presentation.

 

[Wrench]

What outcome are you suggesting is falsified?

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I didn't say falsified, I said you can purchase the outcome.

It's true that some lead bullets will frag hard, they're designed to for killing small game for fur......the game you don't leave in the field typically.

It's also true that some bonded lead bullets are nearly frag free.

The most important thing I said was

FOLLOW THE MONEY.

 

[TaperPin]

Without even seeing the video I’m surprised there’s debate over lead poisoning. It’s super easy to test for, super easy to feed captive birds different amounts of lead and see the results. It’s like debating if getting hit by a train is a real issue with pedestrians. You can argue a study can be rigged to show pedestrians are or aren’t going to get run over, but it’s pretty clear to anyone looking at it as a casual observer, trains running through a town at full speed will munch a person from time to time.

We still have lead water pipes in poor areas, so obviously we don’t care about lead unless it affects us directly. If scavengers or birds unfortunate enough to pick up pellets during feeding get lead poisoning they will have to take a number because they are even further down the list of things we care about.

 

[Bull_n_heat]

I didn't say falsified, I said you can purchase the outcome.

It's true that some lead bullets will frag hard, they're designed to for killing small game for fur......the game you don't leave in the field typically.

It's also true that some bonded lead bullets are nearly frag free.

The most important thing I said was

FOLLOW THE MONEY.

I guess I can't help but wonder, what/where exactly is the money we're following? It seems like a group of folks that care about birds have noticed lead poisoning as a problem and are asking hunters to consider alternatives to lead bullets. People are selling both lead and copper bullets, and making healthy profits on both. Do the bird nerds somehow get a cut of the latter?

 

[BuckSmasher]

Loved this film. Thank you for posting.

 

[Wrench]

I guess I can't help but wonder, what/where exactly is the money we're following? It seems like a group of folks that care about birds have noticed lead poisoning as a problem and are asking hunters to consider alternatives to lead bullets. People are selling both lead and copper bullets, and making healthy profits on both. Do the bird nerds somehow get a cut of the latter?

Work your way through the list and let me know when you get to a couple of organizations that support hunting.....and count how many work against hunting.

 

[Wrench]

https://assets.peregrinefund.org/docs/pdf/annual-reports/annual-report-2002.pdf

 

[Bubblehide]

The original study attributing lead bullets to Condor lead poisoning utilized correlation, not cause and effect. It has since been repeatedly cited as gospel, numerous times. It clearly did NOT establish lead bullets as the source responsible for Condors having elevated levels of lead in their system. Since then, lead bullet isotopes have been utilized to try to establish bullets as the source, again a correlation, not cause and effect. However, those same isotopes naturally exist in nature, and studies have found Condors interacting with natural lead sources, and likely ingesting naturally occurring lead in the environment.

In 2019, kead bullets were banned for hunting purposes in California. Recent and current studies do NOT, exhibit a decline in lead poisoning in Condors in California; strongly implying that lead bullets are not, or seldom ever the source they are ingesting. Lead in paint was also considered to be a source, as Condors were observed and filmed picking at and ingesting paint with lead. Yet, our forest service still has buildings in which the lead paint has not been removed, while private property owners have been legislated to remove lead paint long long ago.

Copper hunting bullets do not create a wound channel as large as lead hunting bullets, as such, they are not as effective at killing, as lead hunting bullets, in general. Lead hunting bullets are far more effective at killing at long ranges, as they open/expand at much lower velocities. Velocities at which bullets are at, at longer ranges; where as a copper bullets is highly likely to pencil in, possibly through, with no real wound channel.

The anti lead-anti hunting factions, have used correlation, exceptionally effectively in significantly changing the bullet industry, and what we use, and they are not close to being finished.

With that said, I believe we are past the point of return on lead bullets in hunting, in California, and likely several other states, and it's growing. I don't know if this is a fight that can be won, so we as hunters, may be better of taking up other battles.

The video also stated, or rather the biologist stated, that he doesn't want his children eating game shot with lead bullets. However, if he actually knew his science, he would know that our digestive tract does not break down and absorb solid lead fragments into our system. I do however get not wanting to take unecessary potentual risks, or perceived risks, with one's children.

 

[WRO]

Not to mention that there's millions of pounds of lead tire weights along the road side, which is coincidentally where all of the birds get their gravel for their craw.

 

[Bobolu]

The debate continues

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

Using eagles in Iowa as an example, several deaths are contributed to lead poisoning annually. The theory is that the birds are eating deer gut piles/carcasses and picking up fragments as they feed. That may or may not be the source of the lead in the birds. However, the number of eagles continues to increase and the birds are thriving here in spite of no ban on lead bullets. My guess is the unlimited food sources in the form of dead hog carcasses in addition to other carrion and occasional live kills keeps them fat and happy in this state. If the data were available, we may see that more are likely killed in Iowa by wind turbines, but nobody is up in arms or suggesting banning them (Iowa is number one or two in wind production).

 

[CJ19]

Using eagles in Iowa as an example, several deaths are contributed to lead poisoning annually. The theory is that the birds are eating deer gut piles/carcasses and picking up fragments as they feed. That may or may not be the source of the lead in the birds. However, the number of eagles continues to increase and the birds are thriving here in spite of no ban on lead bullets. My guess is the unlimited food sources in the form of dead hog carcasses in addition to other carrion and occasional live kills keeps them fat and happy in this state. If the data were available, we may see that more are likely killed in Iowa by wind turbines, but nobody is up in arms or suggesting banning them (Iowa is number one or two in wind production).

the 2024 Adjustment to the eagle rule streamlined the process for eagles to be incidentally killed by windmills. Several conservation and environmental groups had filed amicus briefs in federal court recently in which they defended that adjustment for increased and streamlined take of eagles by wind energy facilties. Here is one such amicus brief - eagle issue starts on pg 17

https://offshorewind.nwf.org/wp-content/uploads/2026/01/47-1_Proposed-Brief-of-Amici-Curiae-ISO-PI.pdf

 

[CMcCormick1805]

Big Mono Bullets putting out more propaganda. In all seriousness I don’t see an issue with all copper bullets if the states leave the choice up to you.

 

[Lawnboi]

Fisherman need to shape up too! Need to be accountable for every jig head!

 

[Fetty Wapiti]

I was not a believer until I picked up a golden eagle on a hunt. Took it too a local rescue. It died from lead poisoning several days later.
It was one of the most incredible animals I have ever seen or handled. It broke my heart knowing its death was 100% avoidable.
I mostly shoot copper now and have been impressed with the results. I do sling lead for specific situations still(over 800 yards). For most hunters there is no need to use lead. But that aint for the government to decide.
It 100% without a doubt kills birds. No arguing with that, unless you wear a tin foil hat.