Lead in Meat Discussion

[Marbles]

It's possible that he only meant to avoid overstating an outlier, but even your explanation concedes that he instead mistated a fact.

Either 11 inches is as far from the wound channel as they found lead, or it is the average of a set of numbers, some of which are higher. It cannot be both.

Agree, and I misread what you wrote. Indeed, both statements cannot both be true, as you stated, as one excludes the other.

My initial interpretation was 'these statements cannot be true.' Which of course is not what you wrote. My apologies.

 

[Teodoro]

No worries at all. It's an understandable misread given how charged the topic can be.

 

[Okhotnik]

If you have time. The pro leaded will like his conclusion, though he does gloss over a point or two in order to strengthen his position, it is still a good summary. It is a bit long, but probably more useful than just posting links to studies as he covers the studies, and discusses things that should be considered in the studies.

Health Risks of Lead in Venison: Gray Toxin or Red Herring? | Deer & Deer Hunting

Find out if bird biologists' concerns about the effects of lead in venison on human health are legitimate or just an effort to save birds.

www.deeranddeerhunting.com

If the deer and elk were lost, how do you know it was bad bullet performance and not bad shot placement?

This is my primary concern. Personally, I'm here for a good time not for a long time. There's plenty of places where lead ammo probably has a negligible effect on bird populations. However, when we look at all the threats to raptors like habitat loss, wind farms, prey species decline, etc. it's pretty easy for me to get behind a good mono bullet that's lethal at every range I'm comfortable shooting at and that won't impact the pair of golden eagles I see every day.

Yeah, the other things might be bigger problems but I like seeing eagles, hawks and falcons when I'm out hunting and fishing and am happy to have an impact on the problem that I'm capable of helping. Especially because my family hunts the same area and usually leaves over a dozen carcasses out on the same 8k acres.

And some of you might not love this argument, but it's pretty clear that the more hunters who voluntarily start hunting with nonlead ammo, the longer we'll go without government regulation, which might impact target shooting too.

It would make more sense to archery hunt

 

[Tod osier]

It's possible that he only meant to avoid overstating an outlier, but even your explanation concedes that he instead mistated a fact.

Either 11 inches is as far from the wound channel as they found lead, or it is the average of a set of numbers, some of which are higher. It cannot be both.

I've read all these papers carefully, but it has been a few years... If I remember right, the issue in this paper is that their x-rays were only so large and fragments were clearly at the edge, so therefore it is likely that some or many escaped beyond the limits of the imaging. If I remember right, the results are carefully written to take this into account. I'm not reading it again, but I'm pretty sure this was the issue.

 

[Mule3006Elk]

Solid lead is not absorbed at the same rate as soluble lead (in liquid). Nothing new. The bullets I shoot have 90%+ weight retention. Initially, when I started hunting I avoided highly fragmenting bullets b/c I didn't want to risk feeding my young kids meat with lead. There are plenty of studies on waterfowl and big game hunters that demonstrate elevated blood levels after a season of eating wild game meat but not generally above the CDC threshold for toxicity. Unless someone is eating a LOT of wild game meat annually it's probably not an issue. How much is a lot I don't know. Anecdotally, hunters have been eating meat with lead for a long time and I'm not aware of any clinically significant health sequelae in this group.

Based on the amount of meat I eat it's not an issue IMO. But I'll stick with mono or bonded with high weight retention b/c they work well and minimize fragments in the meat. For me, it's more about fragments than lead itself.

 

[OMF]

Interesting discussion and something to ponder. I started using mono bullets due to regs in CA. What I found was that they both shot well and performed well in the rifles I use. Since, I've continued to use them for hunting. For target I still use lead core. I DO NOT support any bans on lead ammo. Here in CA there are enough regs.

 

[Pony Soldier]

Small caliber light go fast bullets tends to break up. Bigger caliber heavy bullets going slower tend to not come apart. I have never seen a lead fragment in my meat in over 50 years. I also like head and neck shots. They give me no meat damage.

 

[pk_]

@doc holiday13

Not trying to be a jerk but if I was consistently ending up with ‘chunks’ of projectile in my steaks I would be paying more attention to shot placement and/or my processing. Actually I did have this problem when I was younger because I felt guilty trimming a lot around blood shot meat, so I would trim the least amount possible and clean it out well. Until I had an experience like yours and from then on I began to trim well.

Look at the images of the fragmentation/splatter. The ones I have seen look like a 2d broadside X-ray and are very misleading at first glance. If you break down a lot of animals then you know. In real life, anywhere those lead fragments end up would leave a wound channel or shock/trauma/bloodshot tissue.

If you are shooting broadside animals that fragmentation will generally end up inside the pleura or the peritoneum (stomach and chest cavity linings) or between the ribs and the hide. Organ meat would be the only real concern. I eat every heart that isn’t damaged, I trim it up and remove the outer membrane. Zero concern, 0.0 to be exact.

Shooting copper is great but no matter what type of bullets you shoot you still need proper shot placement and to trim wide margins around wound channels and blood shot meat unless you want metal on your dinner plate or in your mouth.

Shot placement and proper processing takes care of any real chance of lead intake, period.

 

[doc holiday13]

@doc holiday13

Not trying to be a jerk but if I was consistently ending up with ‘chunks’ of projectile in my steaks I would be paying more attention to shot placement and/or my processing.

No offense taken. A tidbit I left out is that it's been over decade since I switched to copper. your correct that my butchering skills have improved since I last shot a high speed lead. I've also swapped to neck and head shots due meat damage/ loss. So is lead an issue in this instance. Nope because it is very easy to definitely easy to cut out any lead contamination

 

[cbuck516]

I refuse to shoot lead after having a long range lead-core bullet nearly cause me to an animal. I shot an elk with this lead bullet perfectly in the lungs, but the bullet fragmented so significantly that it popped rumen and made a massive bloody mess of all the brisket meat. The shank fully passed through, but there was no blood trail in the 100 yards that this elk travelled before expiring. It did die reasonably quickly but it was only luck and intuition that helped me find the animal in the dark.
I have since then switched to copper and been very pleased with up close shots using copper bullets. I hunt to fill my freezer and losing meat is just not something that sits well with me, especially after driving 18 hours to the trailhead.

 

[doc holiday13]

I refuse to shoot lead after having a long range lead-core bullet nearly cause me to an animal. I shot an elk with this lead bullet perfectly in the lungs, but the bullet fragmented so significantly that it popped rumen and made a massive bloody mess of all the brisket meat. The shank fully passed through, but there was no blood trail in the 100 yards that this elk travelled before expiring. It did die reasonably quickly but it was only luck and intuition that helped me find the animal in the dark.
I have since then switched to copper and been very pleased with up close shots using copper bullets. I hunt to fill my freezer and losing meat is just not something that sits well with me, especially after driving 18 hours to the trailhead.

I wouldn't necessarily blame the bullet for performance. I'll quote a dude who spent some time kicking doors in the sandbox

"one day we breached a door, threw some flashbangs, popped everyone several times and were getting ready to call clear. Then a dude popped up and ran down the hall into an empty room. We finished him with a grenade. Next day I had to pop a guy a 200 meters and he fell dead in one shot. I can't explain either instance"

He was using the same ammo.. Sometimes things just die different and at different speeds

 

[Dos Perros]

Small caliber light go fast bullets tends to break up. Bigger caliber heavy bullets going slower tend to not come apart. I have never seen a lead fragment in my meat in over 50 years. I also like head and neck shots. They give me no meat damage.

Shooting something in the neck doesn’t damage neck meat?

 

[intunegp]

Shooting something in the neck doesn’t damage neck meat?

Are you implying there's more meat than the quarters, backstraps, and loins? I thought everything outside of that was gut pile!

 

[Dos Perros]

Are you implying there's more meat than the quarters, backstraps, and loins? I thought everything outside of that was gut pile!

Hmmm, I guess yes that is what I'm implying. I don't gun hunt much but I when I do I try to zip it through both lungs.

 

[intunegp]

Hmmm, I guess yes that is what I'm implying. I don't gun hunt much but I when I do I try to zip it through both lungs.

I was being facetious just in case you didn't pick up on that. I exclusively gun hunt and also try to take as much meat from a carcass as I can, neck and ribs included.

 

[Pony Soldier]

A good consistant neck shot is at the base of the skull. The loss is measured in ounces not lbs. I try my best to minimize bloodshot in my edible meat.

Over the years I would say that all my waste on an elk (fat, bloodshot, general trim) rarely exceeds 2 lbs. I only pitch the bones and they are very clean.

 

[Rokbar]

I haven't went through the entire post, but speaking of lead shot and not bullets. Over my life I am sure I have ingested quiet a bit of lead shot from grouse hunting. I have spit them out while eating the cooked grouse, so I'm sure some have been swallowed as well. I knew one guy dad gave some grouse to that had to have 2 pellets of 7 1/2's removed that got lodged between his teeth. I'm still in pretty good health and no signs of lead poisoning. Even still crimp lead sinkers with my teeth.

 

[PredatorSlayer]

This seems to be more woke america propaganda being pushed by people who make money off of people shooting monos. My grandparents lived off lead shot game meat well into their 90’s. I bet the same people who switch to copper bullets so their kids aren’t eating lead shot meat still feed their kid processed foods.

 

[PurpleDriver]

Not the best answer, but I have thought about this for years and handle it 2 ways.

Neck/head shots when I can. I leave a wide section of meat on the animal if it has any bloodshot or damage from the bullet. Yes, I lose some meat, but it makes me fairly confident my family won’t get a chunk of lead or copper.

I grew up spitting out lead pellets from quail, but one pellet and my wife would never eat wild game again. to each their own with this. I don’t fault anyone for eating lead or avoiding it.

 

[SwiftShot]

I saw an article a few months back where they x-ray a pig after it was shot behind the shoulder. I think it was 308 at 100 to 130 yards. Lets just say I was surprised with seeing lead. It wasnt a lot but the off side had little specs of lead disbursed. Rather enlightening. I did not change. I still shoot ELDX. If I can find the article I will post it with the pictures.