Lead in Meat Discussion

[grfox92]

I went back and edited my original post, because I shouldn't tall sh** that I can't back up. This is my opinion based on information I've absorbed over the years, and should not tout that as gospel. My apologies.

My opinion on the matter comes from having listened to a lot of podcasts where the guests were biologists, scientists or Doctors, and their consensus on lead bullets is that they are not a human health hazard when eating wild game.

While there are rare cases of people being affected by a bullet lodged in their intestines or people who were actually shot and retaining lead in their tissue, these cases are few and far between and extremely rare.


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[Desk Jockey]

My $0.02 is i stand firmly against banning lead bullet use, mostly for 2A reasons, though I prefer to hunt with non lead as a personal choice. More details….

I have switched to copper when I can for bigger game and small game with a 22. Still use lead shot shells for wing shooting and small game. why? My choice is based off a desire to avoid consumption Where possible. I have def found bullet fragments in meat. I have also seen some X-rays of deer and animal carcasses that show lead spray/splatter over a fairly diffuse area and read some studies that suggest to me that it can be an issue so I am shifting my ammo selection to avoid it.

do I care about scavengers and raptors, etc getting dosed with lead from eating gut piles? Yeah, but I also believe that wind mills and bird strikes on cars and buildings probably kill a shit ton more birds than lead does.

my biggest concern about bans on lead is that the anti 2A crowd will latch onto it as a tactic to drive up the cost of ammo. As a recreational shooter, I have seen what higher ammo prices and ammo component shortages have done to the attendance at my local USPSA steel challenge and rimfire matches. Anything that impacts ammo pricing and availability- ammo taxes, limits and background checks on ammo sales - as an easy and more readily available attack vector for anti gunners, so I am against lead ammo bans and restrictions.

 

[cuerro viejo]

Lots of research on human lead poisoning in the medical world related to gunshot wounds. Also, increasingly so in the biological sciences sd it relates to raptors ingesting viscera from gunshot killed ungulates.

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Let me know when that study actually talks about how much metallic non organic lead-antimony alloy was eaten, and how long it would have to stay in you to absorbed through the stomach and intestines to a level high enough to cause lead poisoning ……

 

[30338]

I just took a poll at Costco. 96% of current mask wearers are in favor of a lead ban. In fairness, the other 4% were so scared someone was talking to them that I couldn't get an answer from them.

Keep your 6' distancing and remember, boosters save grandmas.

 

[Marbles]

Here is the thing. If you are scared of using lead bullets, then don't. Leave me alone.

Sounds familiar.

 

[RockAndSage]

My biggest concern out of all of this, is that anti-gunners are excellent at using salami-slice strategies in going after guns and other things they get bothered by.

Despite all the reasonable arguments about why someone might voluntarily switch to copper, it's not respected that the left uses this and other "reasonable" restrictions as vectors for backdoor gun control. They are starting with lead and will eventually move to copper. The amount of atomized lead and copper on gun ranges is very high - from what gets melted in the bore, and what's coming out of the lead compounds used in primers. SOCOM had a hell of a problem on its hands a few years back with their shoot-house instructors being so leaded and coppered up from this micronized cartridge material that they had to get these guys into long-term chelation programs to get it out of their systems.

If we let the left force lead bans, they've got plenty of ammo in their mags to ban copper too. It is a very slippery slope, and we need to fight it - no matter what we do voluntarily with our ammo choices. Because you can be certain they will take any opportunity they can to keep us from shooting.

 

[Marbles]

My biggest concern out of all of this, is that anti-gunners are excellent at using salami-slice strategies in going after guns and other things they get bothered by.

Despite all the reasonable arguments about why someone might voluntarily switch to copper, it's not respected that the left uses this and other "reasonable" restrictions as vectors for backdoor gun control. They are starting with lead and will eventually move to copper. The amount of atomized lead and copper on gun ranges is very high - from what gets melted in the bore, and what's coming out of the lead compounds used in primers. SOCOM had a hell of a problem on its hands a few years back with their shoot-house instructors being so leaded and coppered up from this micronized cartridge material that they had to get these guys into long-term chelation programs to get it out of their systems.

If we let the left force lead bans, they've got plenty of ammo in their mags to ban copper too. It is a very slippery slope, and we need to fight it - no matter what we do voluntarily with our ammo choices. Because you can be certain they will take any opportunity they can to keep us from shooting.

When fear prevents you from discussing arguments you call reasonable, you are no longer a free man.

 

[Bubblehide]

So lead spray is a thing. Even if you can't see it. Lead spray actually looks like little dark red spots(kinda like micro size blood shot meat) I'm also fully against any lead ban. I haven't had a bad experience with a copper bullet yet. I'm also not opposed to using lead. I handload all my calibers but if I couldn't get a copper bullet, i'd shoot lead and try to go for neck shots using some of the exploding type bullets. I also think the lead spray is a matter of bullet velocity at point of impact. That said, is your position on using lead over copper because you don't want the .gov telling you what to do or because you just haven't really looked for lead spray and in the scope of things you personally don't feel its high on your list of worries?



Shots were lower half of the chest cavity and I had lead spray in the offside shoulder and there was copper jacket in the backstrap.

So, just what does lead spray look like, and just how did the lead liquefy from a solid to a liquid that sprayed the inside of the wound channel?

 

[Marbles]

...and just how did the lead liquefy from a solid to a liquid that sprayed the inside of the wound channel?

Simple thermodynamics. KE becomes TE, lead has a low melting point, bullets from modern rifles have a lot of KE. Many lead bullets are designed to rapidly dump that KE, meaning lots of TE on impact.

 

[Mighty Mouse]

So, just what does lead spray look like, and just how did the lead liquefy from a solid to a liquid that sprayed the inside of the wound channel?

It looks like this. Whether the lead actually liquefies, disperses, then solidifies or fragments while remaining in a solid state, I don't know. Either way, "lead spray" is an apt description of the end result.

 

[Desk Jockey]

again and for clarity, I am against banning lead. however, if we simply ignore or try to shout down the other side, I think we will lose.

Keep in mind that hunters are a small minority and pols in some very populace states are going to align on the other side of this argument. They don’t hunt and would probably rather the whole thing, along with firearms and recreational shooting, would go away. they are going to gain support with pictures of sick bald eagles and X-rays that show bullet spray in deer shot with lead bullets And talk about how that meat is fed to kids and donated to food pantries. Meanwhile, if the best we can do is slinging bro science about how the lead in our bullets can’t get into our blood stream and how baby boomers ate paint chips, we will lose. First we will lose in the press. Next we will lose the popular opinion war and popular support. Finally we will lose the battle to avoid regulation of lead ammo.

for inquiring minds, Lots of articles reference this study.

Lead Bullet Fragments in Venison from Rifle-Killed Deer: Potential for Human Dietary Exposure

Human consumers of wildlife killed with lead ammunition may be exposed to health risks associated with lead ingestion. This hypothesis is based on published studies showing elevated blood lead concentrations in subsistence hunter populations, retention of ammunition residues in the tissues of...

journals.plos.org

a quick google will turn up press coverage from The NY Times to the NPS.

 

[doc holiday13]

So, just what does lead spray look like, and just how did the lead liquefy from a solid to a liquid that sprayed the inside of the wound channel?

The lead itself doesn't liquify.. I can see how you might have gotten that from the way I worded my post. So I will clarify my statement. The lead breaks apart into small particles and when those small particles impact surrounding tissues, the tissues get liquified. Think of it like a shotgun hit. lots of impacts from the tiny pellets. So because there are so many small particles it tears up the surrounding tissue and more or less liquifies them.


Since we're on to page 4 of post. I'm going to add some clarifying statements and clarifying questions

1) I'm not telling you that you need to stop using lead, I'm just curious if you've put genuine time and effort into your decision making process.

2) I still eat animals that were shot with lead pellets or bullets

3) A lead Ban is very bad for the hunting and shooting community

4) Why are you opposed to switching your ammo? Have you taken your and your families blood samples to get analyzed and there is zero lead impact? Is it because you're so anti perceived or actual liberal agenda that you'll oppose it, even if it means you do yourself harm. Do you have personal experience that would indicate non lead bullets are shit? Did you work up a viable load and put together 500 rds of ammo; and by the math you have enough ammo to last you the rest of your life because you shoot less than 20rds a year? (insert question or qualifier here)


At the end of the day if we never question how and why we do things we'll end up like teh current Biden Admin.. We'll wake up and decide the US military should be all electric by 2030.......... WTF

 

[isItFallYet]

I like to pair my lead solubilized game meat with a healthy dose of Chemet! Btw, a nice pinot noir to wash down the succimer is a treat to the palate.

 

[Bubblehide]

The lead itself doesn't liquify...

Exactly, lead does not liquify, despite some attempts to theorize it. Obviously lead that liquifys and returns to a solid state in a body would exhibit such a process in its appearence.

I am not picking on just trying to provide some clarity to the discussion.

 

[doc holiday13]

Exactly, lead does not liquify, despite some attempts to theorize it. Obviously lead that liquifys and returns to a solid state in a body would exhibit such a process in its appearence.

I am not picking on just trying to provide some clarity to the discussion.

I mean.... it could be possible that the lead does temporarily liquify because of the high velocity impact the friction of the material fragmenting might create enough heat to do so. ..

BUT for this conversation, I'm going to soley stick to lead fragmenting only. I will not attempt to theorize that the lead turns to liquid because I don't have any sort of data (imperical or perceived) to make such a statement.

 

[ODB]

This is a good read on a research study for lead bullets. Full disclosure it came off a link from Hammer bullets website.

Lead Bullet Fragments in Venison from Rifle-Killed Deer: Potential for Human Dietary Exposure - PMC

Human consumers of wildlife killed with lead ammunition may be exposed to health risks associated with lead ingestion. This hypothesis is based on published studies showing elevated blood lead concentrations in subsistence hunter populations, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Interesting study. They used a 7mm mag and probably core-lokt bullets. In other words, a fast-ass round hitting animals at relatively close-ish range with a non-bonded bullet that has very little chance of staying together.

This study exemplifies one of the great mistakes makes in these conversations: there are lead bullets and there are copper bullets.

There are so many factors to consider that will affect lead spray it’s not funny. It’s convenient to make this a binary argument but the devil is in the details.

One thing I often think about in these conversations is that many people I know/have known who grew up in early 20th century east Africa fed their families almost exclusively on shot game. Birds, antelope, etc. Of the vast majority of them, if a lion dint get them by 40, they lived to their 80s or 90s. And their kids followed suit. Anecdotal, but the list is very long.

 

[doc holiday13]

Interesting study. They used a 7mm mag and probably core-lokt bullets. In other words, a fast-ass round hitting animals at relatively close-ish range with a non-bonded bullet that has very little chance of staying together.

This study exemplifies one of the great mistakes makes in these conversations: there are lead bullets and there are copper bullets.

There are so many factors to consider that will affect lead spray it’s not funny. It’s convenient to make this a binary argument but the devil is in the details.

Core lokt bullets are bonded ya goof

Core-Lokt Tipped

New for this hunting season, Core-Lokt® Tipped offers the same proven on-game performance as original Core-Lokt with improved accuracy and long-range potential.

www.remington.com

This isn't meant to be a binary argument.. I very much make it akin to the seatbelt and helmet argument, although its not entirely equitable. I also oppose seatbelt and helmet laws.

My first question do you agree that lead spray happens? I think that would be the simpliest fact, is that lead spray occurs upon bullet impact with an animal. Even in bonded bullets? I don't recall seeing any manufacturer claim their lead or non lead bullet retaining 100% weight. So that non retained weight has to go somewhere

Do you agree that lead spray is real?
Would you agree that ingesting lead isn't good for you?
If you could avoid ingesting lead, would you?
If we changed this argument to "lead in water" would you still maintain your position?

I also understand that not everyone can handload and generally its a lot harder to find non lead factory loaded ammo. I won't tell you not hunt. I'll also concede that the quantity ingested would be very low and very likely non impactful on your health if your have a good butcher

 

[Bearwhisky]

If you happen to swallow the very rare small chunk of processed lead, how much of that lead is your body actually absorbing? My understanding is very little, if any.


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[NB7]

c'moooonnnn hunting season

 

[Marble]

I shoot some copper, I prefer lead for my mag rifles. I do not like the lead bans because it ends up restricting what bullets I am able to get causing an overall reduction in supply. It makes an already difficult situation worse.

Kind of happy everyone on this thread has remained civil! I was not optimistic.