Lead in Meat Discussion

[3forks]

I switched a few years ago for a couple different reasons. First, I had terrible results with ELDX bullets separating and going wild places inside an animal, often ruining meat. When I started handloading, I looked around for monos and landed on Hammers because they got good reviews, were unbelievable easy to dial in, and are a local company. I've since shot a couple dozen animals with them at ranges between 10 and 650 yards, loaded them for friends, and shot out to 1000 on steel. I won't shoot them at game past 650-700 because of the low BCs, but I don't really need to either where I hunt. Have yet to see a bullet not perform perfectly.

The second reason is that I was also in the habit of putting game cams on gut piles and carcasses to monitor lions and wolves on our family ranch. I got far more footage of golden eagles than any other species except for magpies, of course. There's a wealth of data coming out of Western MT in particular on lead toxicity for eagles and other raptors, and I don't mind doing my part to prevent that if there's no impact to my lethality on game. I still shoot lead on pheasants and grouse, but I'm not leaving any part of them in the field to be ingested. Just .02 from a libtard PETA lover...

Agree with you on this.

Shooting gophers was one of my favorite pastimes.

Years ago we had access to several ranches and would shoot hundreds of gophers over the course of a few days. When we went back to the field the following morning, there would be numerous birds of prey, dozens or crows/ravens/magpies, plus often badgers and coyotes eating the dead gophers.

I was pretty oblivious to what ingested lead would do to bird of prey, but then saw a pic of golden eagle at a local rehab facility with lead poisoning. I’m not passing judgment on anyone else, but pretty quickly after that I decided that I‘d quit shooting gophers with lead bullets.

 

[grfox92]

This topic has been beat to death. .

I would be much more worried about breaking a tooth then the lead.

There is an incredible amount of lead in virtually every brand of chocolate sold in the supermarket, from Hersheys to Godiva. No one is getting lead poisoning, and Americans eat a hell of a lot of chocolate.

Sent from my SM-G990U using Tapatalk

 

[Nickofthewoods]

When I first made the switch to copper I was a bit nervous about effectiveness but they have been just as lethal for me as any lead core rounds I ever used before. I remember seeing a photo where someone took a package of their deer burger and had it x-rayed and seeing all of the lead fragments in it was eye opening. Copper is also toxic if ingested in large quantity but not nearly as harmful as lead which can accumulate in the body over time. Copper retention is much better so hopefully there is much less copper fragmenting after impact. To be clear, I don't want either in my meat but copper seems much less harmful, especially in small amounts.

 

[roadrunner]

...is your position on using lead over copper because you don't...feel its high on your list of worries?

this.

 

[Keptwalkin]

I get the argument that we are surrounded by all sorts of toxic stuff but think it makes sense to limit it whenever possible. Even granite cement is radioactive right? In terms of toxicity however lead is pretty up there. Theres a reason why we dont have lead pencils or lead paint. Stuff is really no bueno. If someone with a scientific background could chime in on this I am all ears

 

[Dos Perros]

This topic has been beat to death. The type of lead used in bullets is not soluble to enter your blood stream. Period.

How would you explain the following?

Intoxication from an Accidentally Ingested Lead Shot Retained in the Gastrointestinal Tract - PMC

A 45-year-old woman was referred to the Department of Occupational and Environmental Health in January 2002 because of increased blood lead concentrations of unknown origin. She suffered from malaise, fatigue, and diffuse gastrointestinal symptoms. ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[doc holiday13]

This topic has been beat to death. The type of lead used in bullets is not soluble to enter your blood stream. Period.

I forget the exact number, but one would have to ingest several pounds of lead shot at one time to even register in blood work.

Would you be able to post your sources on this? I'm asking genuinely because I'd like to read it

 

[sacklunch]

This topic has been beat to death. The type of lead used in bullets is not soluble to enter your blood stream. Period.

I forget the exact number, but one would have to ingest several pounds of lead shot at one time to even register in blood work.

tell that to the ducks.

Pathogenesis of lead shot poisoning in the mallard duck - PubMed

Adult mallard ducks were administered steel pellets to determine the rate of excretion from the gastrointestinal tract. In separate studies the ducks were administered 5 number 6 lead pellets. Birds were examined for clinical signs and sacrificed at given intervals over a 20 day period to assess...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Teodoro]

There was a study that ol' Rinella likes to reference that found city-dwelling people that don't eat game meat have higher lead levels in their blood than country folk who regularly eat game meat. Maybe the joke's on me since I'm referencing and repeating it without seeking out the info myself, but I don't worry about the miniscule amounts of lead that may transfer to me through eating an animal I shot.

This always struck me is kind of shaky logic, a little like saying getting punched in the shoulder is less likely to do long-term damage to you than getting punched in the head. It seems entirely likely, but I try to avoid getting punched altogether. That said, if you want to get punched, it's absolutely your business.

 

[30338]

Here is the thing. If you are scared of using lead bullets, then don't. Leave me alone.

 

[9.1]

I converted to lead in my deer rifle last year. There's no longer any lead in my deer meat, and it's going to stay that way until Nosler sees fit to put some Accubonds on the market. (I'm saving my Accubond stash for moose)

 

[william schmaltz]

When it comes to the world of lead, 95% of the concern and regulations are built around protecting children. My concern isn't me or other adults, it's the children that will be eating the meat. The same goes with roundup-covered food, sugar, dyes, fast food, and the million other poisons our government says are safe so politicians can keep collecting checks. Just because my parent's generation didn't know better and poisoned us, doesn't mean we need to keep doing it. I mostly try to avoid giving my children any of the other poisons listed so far and I also avoid using lead ammo.

I've ate all kids of meat, large game and upland, that were shot with lead. I turned out alright (some may argue otherwise). But drawing a conclusion from that experience and saying that it's not an issue for other kids is like someone swimming with sharks and not getting attacked and then drawing the conclusion that swimming with sharks must be safe. One very small lead anomaly that has been missed while cleaning your meat and subsequently ingested by a child could be extremely detrimental to their health. It's an easy change to protect my children IMO.

I've got my lead inspector certification and have been the PM on a couple small arms firing range remedial projects. I can 100% promise you there is toxicity in hunting ammo. I'm not for lead ammo bans; do what you want. But it's extremely short-sighted to say there are no human-health risks.

 

[t_carlson]

Copper monos perform better than lead bullets for 95% of hunters, and eliminate the well documented potential of introducing toxins to ourselves and our families.

I'm not sure what you are judging performance by, but I guess I'm one of the 5% that does not get good results with them. I actually shot my 2022 bull (pictured in my avatar) with a Barnes TSX. He was not the first animal I've killed with copper bullets and won't be the last, but in general, I have seen animals run farther with less internal damage when compared to a good lead bullet. Usually poorer blood trails to boot.

The only reason I was hunting with them last fall was because the rifle liked the bullet. But I really am convinced that they do not kill as quickly as lead bullets. I'm not even sure they penetrate better. I shot that bull through the shoulders under 200 yards and recovered the bullet. That is a lot to ask of a bullet, but I think a 160 Partition would have exited.

Thats a poor argument because there are zero healthy options at McDonalds. Had you said "reminds me of people who buy prepackaged food at a grocery that sells raw ingredients" I would have agreed with you.

Not a poor argument, you just didn't understand it. The premise was that out of all the things slowly poisoning you, you're fooling yourself if you think that avoiding lead bullets is going to make any meaningful difference.

How would you explain the following?

Intoxication from an Accidentally Ingested Lead Shot Retained in the Gastrointestinal Tract - PMC

A 45-year-old woman was referred to the Department of Occupational and Environmental Health in January 2002 because of increased blood lead concentrations of unknown origin. She suffered from malaise, fatigue, and diffuse gastrointestinal symptoms. ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Do you know if there are any other instances like that? Or is she 1 in 8 billion people?

I'm not a doctor (well, at least not a medical one), but the fact that the pellet was 6mm jumped out at me. That is a pretty hefty chunk of metal, and I would guess that it was so heavy that gravity nestled it into a pocket somewhere and that is why she had a problem. Small fragments of lead in meat, on the other hand, should pass through pretty quickly (?).

My understanding is that is why lead is so harmful to birds. Their digestive systems work differently than ours and the lead stays around long enough for significant absorption.

 

[t_carlson]

But drawing a conclusion from that experience and saying that it's not an issue for other kids is like someone swimming with sharks and not getting attacked and then drawing the conclusion that swimming with sharks must be safe.

I can't speak for other people posting on this issue, but personally, I don't hold the view that lead is categorically safe.

Its just a matter of risk tolerance and rational fear.

I feel really bad for people who are too afraid to swim because they might get eaten by a shark.

 

[OXN939]

I'm not sure what you are judging performance by

Mostly from the dozens of big game animals I have either personally killed or watched be killed with monos, ranging in size from 35 pound Sika deer to a 900 pound bull Nilgai. Really the only place monos concede anything to lead alloy bullets is at ranges longer than the vast majority of hunters have any business worrying about terminal performance.

Small fragments of lead in meat, on the other hand, should pass through pretty quickly (?).

My understanding is that is why lead is so harmful to birds. Their digestive systems work differently than ours and the lead stays around long enough for significant absorption.

Spot on that birds absorb lead differently than us, but the smaller lead fragments are, the more surface area they have per amount of volume. So, essentially, the microfragments created by shooting an animal with most popular centerfire calibers are an almost optimal scenario for lead absorption.

These threads always somehow end up with a lot of politically oriented meltdowns, so I'll bow out respectfully after this and let everyone make their own decisions. Just food for thought that there are very few other areas of life whereby you can completely eliminate you and your family's exposure to a carcinogen for a few bucks a year.

 

[Teodoro]

Not to stir the pot (pun intended), But I always wondered about how cooking would change things. I know there are some concerns about having acidic food on vintage pewter because of lead leaching from the metal. If I simmered ground venison tainted with lead in tomato sauce for a couple of hours, would my spaghetti have extra-absorbable lead?

 

[Mule3006Elk]

I switched a few years ago for a couple different reasons. First, I had terrible results with ELDX bullets separating and going wild places inside an animal, often ruining meat. When I started handloading, I looked around for monos and landed on Hammers because they got good reviews, were unbelievable easy to dial in, and are a local company. I've since shot a couple dozen animals with them at ranges between 10 and 650 yards, loaded them for friends, and shot out to 1000 on steel. I won't shoot them at game past 650-700 because of the low BCs, but I don't really need to either where I hunt. Have yet to see a bullet not perform perfectly.

The second reason is that I was also in the habit of putting game cams on gut piles and carcasses to monitor lions and wolves on our family ranch. I got far more footage of golden eagles than any other species except for magpies, of course. There's a wealth of data coming out of Western MT in particular on lead toxicity for eagles and other raptors, and I don't mind doing my part to prevent that if there's no impact to my lethality on game. I still shoot lead on pheasants and grouse, but I'm not leaving any part of them in the field to be ingested. Just .02 from a libtard PETA lover...

Based on your experience where do you recommend hitting them? Hilar plexus, high shoulder, meat saver shot. I have Hammer bullets but only harvest one thus far. My son had a perfect meat saver shot 225 yards. The deer walked 20 yards before laying down. Thanks

 

[grfox92]

tell that to the ducks.

Pathogenesis of lead shot poisoning in the mallard duck - PubMed

Adult mallard ducks were administered steel pellets to determine the rate of excretion from the gastrointestinal tract. In separate studies the ducks were administered 5 number 6 lead pellets. Birds were examined for clinical signs and sacrificed at given intervals over a 20 day period to assess...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

We aren't ducks.

Sent from my SM-G990U using Tapatalk

 

[roadrunner]

Some of us were raised with lead-based paint on stuff all through our toddler and adolescent years, and the largest generation ever is still out working and hunting...

 

[Dos Perros]

I'm not sure what you are judging performance by, but I guess I'm one of the 5% that does not get good results with them. I actually shot my 2022 bull (pictured in my avatar) with a Barnes TSX. He was not the first animal I've killed with copper bullets and won't be the last, but in general, I have seen animals run farther with less internal damage when compared to a good lead bullet. Usually poorer blood trails to boot.

The only reason I was hunting with them last fall was because the rifle liked the bullet. But I really am convinced that they do not kill as quickly as lead bullets. I'm not even sure they penetrate better. I shot that bull through the shoulders under 200 yards and recovered the bullet. That is a lot to ask of a bullet, but I think a 160 Partition would have exited.



Not a poor argument, you just didn't understand it. The premise was that out of all the things slowly poisoning you, you're fooling yourself if you think that avoiding lead bullets is going to make any meaningful difference.



Do you know if there are any other instances like that? Or is she 1 in 8 billion people?

I'm not a doctor (well, at least not a medical one), but the fact that the pellet was 6mm jumped out at me. That is a pretty hefty chunk of metal, and I would guess that it was so heavy that gravity nestled it into a pocket somewhere and that is why she had a problem. Small fragments of lead in meat, on the other hand, should pass through pretty quickly (?).

My understanding is that is why lead is so harmful to birds. Their digestive systems work differently than ours and the lead stays around long enough for significant absorption.

I don’t know if there are more, but it demonstrates that lead used in game shot can absolutely end up in the blood stream. Maybe it takes special circumstances, but it’s not a complete incompatibility/impossibility as implied by others in this thread.