Lead in Meat Discussion

[doc holiday13]

Here is a discussion that might be controversial. Some people in willfully ignorant, some are just ignorant because they haven't discussed it or bothered to listen to conversations

I personally have transitioned to all copper bullets for big game hunting. I've used trad cup/core bullets and then about 12 years ago I started shooting deer with SMK's. I knew they weren't designed for hunting but as anyone who shoots targets knows that SMKs are accurate and consistent. If you don't know, they are a non bonded hollow point. They basically penetrate a couple inches and then blow up. Liquified heart and lungs put deer down on the spot. I thought they were the best thing since sliced bread till i ended up with a chunk of lead in my mouth during dinner and another friend found a piece of the copper jacket in his steak that I gave him. On another deer I found a chuck of copper jacket and my brain started analyzing the liquified lungs and heart. The lead spray was visibly all over the chest cavity on the off side of the shot. Even though bonded bullets stay intact much better, you still get some lead spray due to high speed impact.

I am well aware of lead free bullets not having the best BC, but they are getting better and designs are improving for sub sonic and supersonic designed all copper bullets. I said all that to say I haven't jumped the bandwagon because of "condors" or "vultures" or (insert libtard PETA argument here) but mostly for my own health. Granted I live on the east coast so 200 yards is a "far shot" by standards where I hunt. I also understand that performance beyond ~700yards (per ballistic data) seems to not favor the copper solids.

Opinions? Something I'm missing?

 

[NB7]

Just curious, which portion of the deer in which the bullet fragments were found, come from?
And what was the shot location on said deer?

 

[hunterjmj]

I'm still shooting good ol lead core bullets. I can't imagine I've ingested enough lead to cause issues. I chew, drink beer, eat fish that probably has mercury, eat some foods that I shouldn't, drink well water, etc. I'd like to try some Barnes tsx's someday to see how they perform but not because I'm worried about lead. To each his own but for now I'll stick with lead core bullets.

 

[jimh406]

I shoot animals through the ribcage and have never seen lead in one I shot. Maybe the butchers have done a good job leaving it out. But, I have used Nosler Partitions or bonded bullets, too. They pass through. Maybe I just haven't had lead in meat yet or maybe the particles are so small that I haven't seen them.

That being said, I'm slowly switching over to copper alloy Barnes LRX bullets because why not. I shoot higher speed calibers and don't expect to have any issues with expansion at the ranges that I will shoot.

 

[cuerro viejo]

Here is a discussion that might be controversial. Some people in willfully ignorant, some are just ignorant because they haven't discussed it or bothered to listen to conversations

I personally have transitioned to all copper bullets for big game hunting. I've used trad cup/core bullets and then about 12 years ago I started shooting deer with SMK's. I knew they weren't designed for hunting but as anyone who shoots targets knows that SMKs are accurate and consistent. If you don't know, they are a non bonded hollow point. They basically penetrate a couple inches and then blow up. Liquified heart and lungs put deer down on the spot. I thought they were the best thing since sliced bread till i ended up with a chunk of lead in my mouth during dinner and another friend found a piece of the copper jacket in his steak that I gave him. On another deer I found a chuck of copper jacket and my brain started analyzing the liquified lungs and heart. The lead spray was visibly all over the chest cavity on the off side of the shot. Even though bonded bullets stay intact much better, you still get some lead spray due to high speed impact.

I am well aware of lead free bullets not having the best BC, but they are getting better and designs are improving for sub sonic and supersonic designed all copper bullets. I said all that to say I haven't jumped the bandwagon because of "condors" or "vultures" or (insert libtard PETA argument here) but mostly for my own health. Granted I live on the east coast so 200 yards is a "far shot" by standards where I hunt. I also understand that performance beyond ~700yards (per ballistic data) seems to not favor the copper solids.

Opinions? Something I'm missing?

ignorant would be not actually understanding the lack of toxicity of metallic non organic lead-antimony alloy shot to humans.

 

[roadrunner]

Bigger things out there affecting health in our every day lives than to get wrapped up in worrying about a miniscule amount of lead being injested in the off chance a small fraction piece is imbedded in a bite of hamburger.

I will continue to use a bonded bullet until legislative crusaders get a burr up their ass and implement yet another ban on something as trivial as lead core bullets.

 

[venado mula]

I've used Barnes bullets for decades, they are superior to any cup and core bullet, no fear bullets. Just use them.

 

[intunegp]

There was a study that ol' Rinella likes to reference that found city-dwelling people that don't eat game meat have higher lead levels in their blood than country folk who regularly eat game meat. Maybe the joke's on me since I'm referencing and repeating it without seeking out the info myself, but I don't worry about the miniscule amounts of lead that may transfer to me through eating an animal I shot.

 

[Pony Soldier]

I am at a loss of why the trend toward rapid expansion bullets that blow up after years of bullets that hold together. I have changed bullets a couple times because they wouldn't stay together and now we have a trend towards down range grenades.

When I started I had friemds who gave me boxes of bullets because at the speeds they loaded them they came apart. For a number of years I shot them at slower speeds and got reliable performance. However things changed and then at lower speeds they started to come apart. Now it seems that is the objective yet everyone is panicking that they are going to die because of it.

Its almost like the bullet manufacturers are committing planned obsolescence to force us into copper bullets and new barrels to fit them.

It's similar to when we went to steel shot and many of the older shotguns couldn't shoot it. Consequently many long term waterfowlers quit.

I'm happy I have a large enough of a stockpile of bullets to last me until I die so I don't have to participate in this insanity. If you are bound and determined to scare yourself into copper bullets, please do so.

 

[doc holiday13]

Bigger things out there affecting health in our every day lives than to get wrapped up in worrying about a miniscule amount of lead being injested in the off chance a small fraction piece is imbedded in a bite of hamburger.

I will continue to use a bonded bullet until legislative crusaders get a burr up their ass and implement yet another ban on something as trivial as lead core bullets.

So lead spray is a thing. Even if you can't see it. Lead spray actually looks like little dark red spots(kinda like micro size blood shot meat) I'm also fully against any lead ban. I haven't had a bad experience with a copper bullet yet. I'm also not opposed to using lead. I handload all my calibers but if I couldn't get a copper bullet, i'd shoot lead and try to go for neck shots using some of the exploding type bullets. I also think the lead spray is a matter of bullet velocity at point of impact. That said, is your position on using lead over copper because you don't want the .gov telling you what to do or because you just haven't really looked for lead spray and in the scope of things you personally don't feel its high on your list of worries?

Just curious, which portion of the deer in which the bullet fragments were found, come from?
And what was the shot location on said deer?

Shots were lower half of the chest cavity and I had lead spray in the offside shoulder and there was copper jacket in the backstrap.

 

[Mighty Mouse]

I made the decision to switch to 100% copper bullets for deer hunting last year. I'm not concerned about bullet performance (a long shot where I hunt would be 200-300 yds), but I am mildly concerned about the effects of potential lead ingestion on my children.

I do my own processing, judiciously trim around the wound channel, and have never found a noticeable bullet fragment in any of my cooked venison, but after learning how small and widely dispersed lead bullet fragments can become, I decided to go lead-less. We eat a lot of venison in my house and feed it to our children; if spending a few more dollars on copper bullets can eliminate the risk (small though it likely is) of my children being harmed by ingesting lead-tainted venison, I'll do it. I don't pass judgment on those who decide otherwise and would oppose a lead bullet ban.

Regarding the specific question of whether or not lead from bullet fragments in the digestive system can be absorbed into the body, the study linked below did find elevated lead concentrations in the blood of pigs fed meat contaminated with lead bullet fragments. The risk of adverse health effects is still likely small, but a bullet fragments in food-to-lead in blood pathway does appear to exist.

Lead Bullet Fragments in Venison from Rifle-Killed Deer: Potential for Human Dietary Exposure - PMC

Human consumers of wildlife killed with lead ammunition may be exposed to health risks associated with lead ingestion. This hypothesis is based on published studies showing elevated blood lead concentrations in subsistence hunter populations, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[WCB]

So you just start calling people ignorant to make yourself feel better? Lets break down everyone's daily choices and put a risks factor on it...I'm sure there are dozens of things that pose a higher risk than eating lead shot venison. Also, if you read the studies they make it fairly evident that proper trimming and recognition of the zone of fragmentation would almost eliminate exposure.

I've read the studies. I have a 2 and 4 year old that have eaten venison or wild game most shot with lead bullets 4-5 days a week since they could eat solids. Their blood work shows no raised levels of lead. I specifically had my lead levels tested due to work and nothing out of the ordinary. Again we eat lead shot venison the majority of the time and I also handle Ammunition every day for my job.

The highest rates of lead exposure in hunters and shooters are hand/reloaders and competition shooters. Proper hygiene could correct A LOT of it by simply avoiding eating and drinking while participating in those activities. Washing hands and faces frequently...wearing gloves etc.

Am I saying guys who choose to shoot copper bullets are wrong in doing so...no. But man they sure are quickly turning into the Vegans of the hunting world.

 

[doc holiday13]

I am at a loss of why the trend toward rapid expansion bullets that blow up after years of bullets that hold together. I have changed bullets a couple times because they wouldn't stay together and now we have a trend towards down range grenades.
.......................................................

I'm happy I have a large enough of a stockpile of bullets to last me until I die so I don't have to participate in this insanity. If you are bound and determined to scare yourself into copper bullets, please do so.

I think the school of thought has been shifting back and forth. I starting using SMK's because I was target shooting one day, there was a deer, i had a tag, and it was in season. It was super effective., just like how everyone is moving to use the Berger Hybrid VLDs. NOW if you look at the hammer hunter bullets(i haven't used them yet) you see that they are designed to loose their petals and have the base keep trucking through.
My assumption is that the purpose of rapid expansion/grenade effect is a multi factor thing to create a kill based on the shock of the impact, expending as much energy possible, and the bullet fragmenting adds additional wounding to increase lethality

I'll reiterate it again.. I'm not against lead or advocating the ban lead. Just trying to have a conversation to look at the issue objectively from a personal health decision. I can't say i've observed lead spray from the bonded bullets I've used in the past, but i also didn't pay much attention at that time in life because "its what we've always done"

 

[Legend]

This is a good read on a research study for lead bullets. Full disclosure it came off a link from Hammer bullets website.

Lead Bullet Fragments in Venison from Rifle-Killed Deer: Potential for Human Dietary Exposure - PMC

Human consumers of wildlife killed with lead ammunition may be exposed to health risks associated with lead ingestion. This hypothesis is based on published studies showing elevated blood lead concentrations in subsistence hunter populations, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[doc holiday13]

So you just start calling people ignorant to make yourself feel better?

No. I used the word ignorant because there are different shades of ignorant.. There are people who do things "because thats what we've always done", people who didn't know there was another way, and people who when confront with facts refuse to change their ways, and finally the people who refuse to change because they don't want to be told what to do

I also commend you on getting the lead levels checked in your childrens blood. I think that MOST people would not go that far to see if they need to make a life change. I haven't done that. And maybe I should because it could reveal some other issue in my own health. The fact there is no lead in your blood is something that should be reassuring given your position

I'm now stating for a 3rd time. I'll still use lead bullets and I'm against banning lead. My own experience is that if I can use a copper bullet, I will

 

[Grundy53]

I've used Barnes bullets for decades, they are superior to any cup and core bullet, no fear bullets. Just use them.

How are they superior?

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

 

[doc holiday13]

How are they superior?

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

He must work for Barnes because thats how they tout their bullets

 

[87TT]

Way way down on the list of things I worry about.

 

[FLATHEAD]

To each their own.
I'll keep shooting lead from here on out.
Just not a concern.

 

[Team4LongGun]

So you just start calling people ignorant to make yourself feel better? Lets break down everyone's daily choices and put a risks factor on it...I'm sure there are dozens of things that pose a higher risk than eating lead shot venison. Also, if you read the studies they make it fairly evident that proper trimming and recognition of the zone of fragmentation would almost eliminate exposure.

I've read the studies. I have a 2 and 4 year old that have eaten venison or wild game most shot with lead bullets 4-5 days a week since they could eat solids. Their blood work shows no raised levels of lead. I specifically had my lead levels tested due to work and nothing out of the ordinary. Again we eat lead shot venison the majority of the time and I also handle Ammunition every day for my job.

The highest rates of lead exposure in hunters and shooters are hand/reloaders and competition shooters. Proper hygiene could correct A LOT of it by simply avoiding eating and drinking while participating in those activities. Washing hands and faces frequently...wearing gloves etc.

Am I saying guys who choose to shoot copper bullets are wrong in doing so...no. But man they sure are quickly turning into the Vegans of the hunting world.

I'm going to jump in here, for one reason. The term/word "ignorant" is not a deragatory term. It actually means "not having prior knowledge". Similar to me teaching my kid how a small engine works, prior to her being taught, she was ignorant of how they work.
Somewhere along the line it seems the definition has changed to an insult. It is not in it's original, and only context.

Sorry I have nothing to offer in the actual topic.