Kuiu Vs Everyone Else

[fngTony]

It helps for us to recognize the audience we are giving advice.

This should apply to more than just packs.

 

[Kevin Dill]

I know a lot of companies out there that have their core specialty be it clothing, packs, shelters, bags, boots etc. In some cases they diversify a bit over time...and sometimes those products may not reflect the same quality as their core lineup. That's the reason I don't buy on brand. I buy on an individual product's qualities. Being simply brand loyal or brand negative doesn't work for me. I like KUIU and Sitka clothing...their core offering...and a few of their secondary items. I'm not overly impressed with either company's packs at all. They simply don't seem to have the quality and strength inherent in the packs made by companies who's main focus is packs. Same thing can be said for shelters and other major gear pieces. KUIU makes a good pack, but they aren't quite to the level of some. Not everyone wants or needs a pack built to the level of MR, SG, Kif or others. I sure as heck don't have ANY use for a $700+ backpack....all-in. I know guys who bought KUIU packs and were quite pleased with their performance. They largely weren't lugging hundred-pound meat loads however.

I wear KUIU or Sitka. I carry Mystery Ranch. I shelter in Kifaru and I sleep in Western Mountaineering. TiGoat stove. I'm hardly a loyalist but I'm definitely not a brand-basher either. I'm pretty sure I could look behind the curtains of every one of these companies and find something I might disagree with in terms of politics, processes or personalities. That's why I don't look at anything except the product and its ability to satisfy me.

 

[Muley15]

I know a lot of companies out there that have their core specialty be it clothing, packs, shelters, bags, boots etc. In some cases they diversify a bit over time...and sometimes those products may not reflect the same quality as their core lineup. That's the reason I don't buy on brand. I buy on an individual product's qualities. Being simply brand loyal or brand negative doesn't work for me. I like KUIU and Sitka clothing...their core offering...and a few of their secondary items. I'm not overly impressed with either company's packs at all. They simply don't seem to have the quality and strength inherent in the packs made by companies who's main focus is packs. Same thing can be said for shelters and other major gear pieces. KUIU makes a good pack, but they aren't quite to the level of some. Not everyone wants or needs a pack built to the level of MR, SG, Kif or others. I sure as heck don't have ANY use for a $700+ backpack....all-in. I know guys who bought KUIU packs and were quite pleased with their performance. They largely weren't lugging hundred-pound meat loads however.

I wear KUIU or Sitka. I carry Mystery Ranch. I shelter in Kifaru and I sleep in Western Mountaineering. TiGoat stove. I'm hardly a loyalist but I'm definitely not a brand-basher either. I'm pretty sure I could look behind the curtains of every one of these companies and find something I might disagree with in terms of politics, processes or personalities. That's why I don't look at anything except the product and its ability to satisfy me.

^^^^ That pretty much sums it up

 

[cuerro viejo]

Ding Ding Ding.

Lots of early frame failures as well, while the customers were doing the product testing that should have already been done before being released to the public, which were poorly handled by the Kuiu propaganda squad.

I see KUIU is now basically using a "go fund me" program to "allow" customers another avenue to pay for their product development. Shrewed--that should probably pay for a Desert Sheep hunt for the staff as Dall/Stone hunts must be becoming to common for the "hard core" crew...

Asking people for design features and giving them a platform to do it is pretty smart. If kifaru did it we would of had the reckoning bag three years ago. And maybe not seeing some many combo mfg packs.

No telling how many products that are produced in the traditional market that never make it to the selves due to lack of interest at the retail buying end. Krptek altitude line is perfect example from concept to the email interest campaign to pre-order was a two plus year plus go to market endeavor.

That platform is becoming a smart tool across the outdoor industry to get products from conception to market quicker and gage interest all at same time.

Jason maybe a lot of things but wasteful business practices he is not. I hope rest of the hunting industry follows suit. We are Seeing it more and more in other verticals.


To the OP I'm not sold on a 100% carbon frame for a pack. Just don't think it's a viable option for someone that doesn't take extra impact precautions. I wouldn't buy a carbon fiber riser bow either for same reason. But that's just me.

Price point wise the kuiu pack has its place for sure, just know it can't be treated same way a metal or rod framed pack can.

 

[North61]

Kuiu makes awesome rain gear and hunting pants, but their packs stink.

I went ahead and bought a Kuiu pack on their 30% off sale. At that price it seemed a no-brainer. I bought it after talking to a guy who likely received a free or heavily discounted pack as part of a guiding family here in the Yukon. Kuiu seems to give guides stuff as part of their business model. (Smart). The pack I saw was very heavily used with zero issues and some good feedback from a very athletic and capable sheep hunter who puts a lot of miles on his gear.

Might not be the best pack made, I am sure the Kifaru frame is even better, but I am getting some good use out of it, and am so far happy with the purchase. Seems to carry stuff as well as my Dana Designs, Astral-plane and has far better organization. Also it isn't red! Will have to see about long term durability but so far so good.

 

[Kevin Dill]

North61....do you happen to know Rod Collin or Dave Dickson?

 

[ReddingArcher]

I have the Icon Pro 5200 and I like it well enough. I was working in Dixon where their office is when they were running one of the 30% off sales. The guy in there took the time to fit it properly to me and was real helpful. I have gone in there quite a few times and the staff is always friendly and willing to sit around and BS. I feel like for the price its a good pack. That said I will eventually upgrade to probably a Kifaru. I dont trust the carbon frame 100%. I have only had a heavy load in it once, about 120 pounds is my estimate, and it was as comfortable as a load that heavy can be, but loaded like that all I could think about was everything I have heard about frames breaking. It also got that sqeak I've heard about people getting under a heavy load. If you're on a tighter budget or not planning on hauling 100 plus pound loads very far, it's a great pack.

 

[dieselgenset]

Not trying to get the thread off track, but Mystery Ranch is going to have their hands pretty full for the next few years going into a whole new govt. contract. I'm sure that's a great opportunity for them and a huge commitment that really speaks for their quality, durability and design. I can see why they do what they do, but i just really wish they had their hunting line built in the USA like before...If they did you wouldn't see them left out of the Kifaru, SG, and EXO threads.

I agree, I really like everything about MR, except this.
This might change with the new president taxing companies going over seas though. I had a question about a pack recently and asked about how new policies might affect their business. They didn't reply lol

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

Jason maybe a lot of things but wasteful business practices he is not. I hope rest of the hunting industry follows suit. We are Seeing it more and more in other verticals.

I hope the rest of the industry DOES NOT follow Jason. Switching vertical channels to overseas, screwing over the brick and mortar shops, making a cheap product that barely works, at a high price. Really, is this what you want? I really hope that you do not.

However, thank god for the Rokslide brain trust to show me all aspects of the hunting world, allowing me to make smart consumer decisions, outside of what is recommended by the sales person. But your comment above really rubbed me the wrong way. I want people to buy more American products and continue our way of life. I still want to be able to try on the clothing, to hold the pack in my hand, to try out the features, not assuming that the internet is correct and then make a faulty purchase decision.

Jason can go **** himself. In his mind, he wants to be the Sam Walton of the hunting world. I for one, do not want to see the hunting world destroyed by the Walmart philosophy.

 

[R_burg]

I hope the rest of the industry DOES NOT follow Jason. Switching vertical channels to overseas, screwing over the brick and mortar shops, making a cheap product that barely works, at a high price. Really, is this what you want? I really hope that you do not.

However, thank god for the Rokslide brain trust to show me all aspects of the hunting world, allowing me to make smart consumer decisions, outside of what is recommended by the sales person. But your comment above really rubbed me the wrong way. I want people to buy more American products and continue our way of life. I still want to be able to try on the clothing, to hold the pack in my hand, to try out the features, not assuming that the internet is correct and then make a faulty purchase decision.

Jason can go **** himself. In his mind, he wants to be the Sam Walton of the hunting world. I for one, do not want to see the hunting world destroyed by the Walmart philosophy.

Lol.

Dude. How many actual, documented breaks have we seen. I think people need to calm down a little. Not hearsay, but actual breaks. They are actually out there. I think theres probably 5-10 I've seen in my research? And that might be high-siding it. Also, I think almost all of these were early iterations of the frames.

Kuiu does not make the best packs out there. FYI: They are not priced like the best packs. In fact, on sale, they are priced at about 40% of the best packs out there.

Jasons expansion of this business is *good* for employment in the US. It is *MUCH* better for "America" if Kuiu expands and needs to keep hiring more and more people while outsourcing the production of textiles (aka the lowest paying, lowest skill, lowest education jobs in existence) and keeps hiring more people in marketing, product support, design, engineering, etc. As a side note, Kuiu is not expensive compared to the other options out there using materials of their quality. Not even close.

Heres what really annoys me about this. Let me give you an example. We are on a hunting forum, not a clothing forum. So I doubt this is a priority, but how many people ONLY wear Alden or Allen Edmond dress shoes? These American companies produce their shoes and boots in America and are made from American sourced leather. They are the only two massed produced shoes I can think of like this. Are you making sure to spend the 300-700 it takes to ensure Americans are making your dress shoes? I do. Or does this argument mostly pertain to your hunting pack. There are all these items we use that arent made in the US, but for some reason, the buck stops at a hunting pack. Do I care if someone in China is sewing my hunting pack? No, that incredibly unskilled job is of much less concern of mine. But its great when Kuiu expands and has to hire a ton of new Americans to keep up with the demand! Which would NOT be happening if he followed Kifaru's business model, for instance.

FYI: The Codura Fabric on your Kifaru pack is being produced the same place as a Kuiu pack: China. When someone asks about Kuiu clothes, it inevitably gets brought up they are made in China. I *never* see this in a Sitka or First Lite thread... both of whom produce their garments in China.

I get it. Kuiu went with a crowdsourcing/kickstarter model and used its consumers as beta testers and that really turned people off to the company. I dont blame you, as it seems it was sort of out in the open, sort of not in the open that this was his business model. I am also with you, I dont love seeing my hunting camo worn as a fashion statement. Its not really my style.


NONE of this has to do with the f'n packs. CF is a really good material for a pack frame, but probably not quite as good as Titanium, as CF doesn't inherently react as well when flexed under serious loads repeatedly. That being said, its being used is applications that are 1000's of times more stressful than supporting 100 lbs on your back. We have seen some damage and breaks, particularly on early model frames. We are, what, 5 iterations into the frame? If you want a *cheaper* serviceable pack that can still deal with heavy loads, a Kuiu is a great choice. No, its not a damn Kifaru. But its not priced like Kifaru... or MR, or SG, or even EXO for that matter.

 

[hodgeman]

I bought into the Kuiu thing pretty early on... loved (and still love) the "Attack" pants better than anything else out there.

I had the first generation Icon, took it on a sheep hunt and just about resorted to setting it on fire. I finally packed back to the truck after tying the tails of the shoulder straps into a knot to keep them from unwinding through the buckle. It also had a squeak in the frame that I just couldn't make go away no matter what I tried.

A couple of calls to the company didn't result in satisfaction so I dumped the whole works since returning it for a refund wasn't offered. It was glaringly apparent that as a consumer I was being used as a beta tester... that didn't set so well. Later generation packs may be sorted out, but I'm unlikely to pick one up after that go around.

I think one of the reasons the China thing keeps coming around is that he heavily marketed the company under the "Built in N. America" banner early on and then switched sourcing with no notice- Kuiu was still running ads with the N.America logo while customers were receiving items with "made in China" tags. Cardinal sin? not really, it's supply chain management, but it turned a lot of folks off.

The direct to consumer business model is pretty interesting and gives you some flexibility, but there are some downsides when your supply chain is thousands of miles long.

 

[North61]

North61....do you happen to know Rod Collin or Dave Dickson?

Not personally..tempted to sign up with my daughter to Mr Dickson's guiding school but work and a too fat body are against me.

 

[cuerro viejo]

I hope the rest of the industry DOES NOT follow Jason. Switching vertical channels to overseas, screwing over the brick and mortar shops, making a cheap product that barely works, at a high price. Really, is this what you want? I really hope that you do not.

However, thank god for the Rokslide brain trust to show me all aspects of the hunting world, allowing me to make smart consumer decisions, outside of what is recommended by the sales person. But your comment above really rubbed me the wrong way. I want people to buy more American products and continue our way of life. I still want to be able to try on the clothing, to hold the pack in my hand, to try out the features, not assuming that the internet is correct and then make a faulty purchase decision.

Jason can go **** himself. In his mind, he wants to be the Sam Walton of the hunting world. I for one, do not want to see the hunting world destroyed by the Walmart philosophy.

Dude pay attention... brick and mortar speciality is dieing at a expedited pace... it has nothing to do with Jason... Jason just capitalized on a technology that's already there. Jason is far from Walmart of hunting since he focuses on a niche segment of hunting.

Direct to consumer is taking over and it started well before Jason. Kifaru was D2C for over a decade.. Online platforms pretty much dominate every facet. The days of Dillard's and Jcpenny and Neimins etc are almost over. Between Amazon and their third party space and other online platforms it's done.

I don't have to leave my house to try on three different MFG's of boots. Not only 3 mfg's but three lines that most brick and mortar retailers don't due to price point. Return is as easy as three clicks in the phone.


My comment can rub you the wrong way all day, I don't want brick and mortar gone either but with a 100% markup at the retail level there are advantages to D2C, especially when you compete with the Gore's of the world. In the end the consumer wins

 

[AK Troutbum]

I hope the rest of the industry DOES NOT follow Jason. Switching vertical channels to overseas, screwing over the brick and mortar shops
QUOTE]
Kuiu does have a B&M shop in Dixon, CA.

 

[AdamRappe]

Hey Guys,

I'm a bit out of the backpacking game these days, but I don't see much love for the Kuiu Icon Pro's around here. Why is that? I had one for a brief time and everything seemed good to go. What was I missing?

Thanks and God bless!

Adam

I owned the Icon Pro 5200 and used it for one hunting season. Didn't work with my body very well so I sold it. It is the only KUIU gear I have owned. I dont know enough about the company aka Jason to say what I think about them as a whole. But they did have good customer service whenever I called. I've just never been interested in using there gear since I have always used Sitka.

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

I hope the rest of the industry DOES NOT follow Jason. Switching vertical channels to overseas, screwing over the brick and mortar shops
QUOTE]
Kuiu does have a B&M shop in Dixon, CA.

True, they do, but my comment was more to discuss how you either fly to their store to try things on or order on line. I'm betting that you might have been in the online category, yes? My drive to their store would be 3 hours, I can only imagine your drive or flight.

 

[AK Troutbum]

No, I've never been to their store, but for that matter, I've never been to the store in Bozeman, MT. that sells the Stone Glacier packs that I use. A lot of the good packs out there, that are designed with the hunter in mind, are pretty much only available online. That is if you don't live in close proximity to where the pack is being made. Prior to SG, the Kifaru packs that I owned were also ordered online. Don't get me wrong, I'm not at all in favor of companies taking their manufacturing overseas, especially the way that Jason did it with Kuiu, but unfortunately, companies do that sometimes and I as a consumer can either support them anyway or look else where.

 

[cbeck36]

I know a lot of companies out there that have their core specialty be it clothing, packs, shelters, bags, boots etc. In some cases they diversify a bit over time...and sometimes those products may not reflect the same quality as their core lineup. That's the reason I don't buy on brand. I buy on an individual product's qualities. Being simply brand loyal or brand negative doesn't work for me. I like KUIU and Sitka clothing...their core offering...and a few of their secondary items. I'm not overly impressed with either company's packs at all. They simply don't seem to have the quality and strength inherent in the packs made by companies who's main focus is packs. Same thing can be said for shelters and other major gear pieces. KUIU makes a good pack, but they aren't quite to the level of some. Not everyone wants or needs a pack built to the level of MR, SG, Kif or others. I sure as heck don't have ANY use for a $700+ backpack....all-in. I know guys who bought KUIU packs and were quite pleased with their performance. They largely weren't lugging hundred-pound meat loads however.

I wear KUIU or Sitka. I carry Mystery Ranch. I shelter in Kifaru and I sleep in Western Mountaineering. TiGoat stove. I'm hardly a loyalist but I'm definitely not a brand-basher either. I'm pretty sure I could look behind the curtains of every one of these companies and find something I might disagree with in terms of politics, processes or personalities. That's why I don't look at anything except the product and its ability to satisfy me.

Well said.

 

[Steve O]

I'm not at all in favor of companies taking their manufacturing overseas, especially the way that Jason did it with Kuiu, but unfortunately, companies do that sometimes and I as a consumer can either support them anyway or look else where.

It sure was quite slimy how Jason did that. I'm interested to watch all this play out. He is lauded as this savant entrepreneur, he is buddy buddy enough with the Trumps to be invited to the inauguration. His business model seems to be in direct contrast to what the President stands for w/regard to protecting American businesses and jobs. Oh what a tangled web we weave...

 

[GKPrice]

I hope the rest of the industry DOES NOT follow Jason. Switching vertical channels to overseas, screwing over the brick and mortar shops, making a cheap product that barely works, at a high price. Really, is this what you want? I really hope that you do not.

However, thank god for the Rokslide brain trust to show me all aspects of the hunting world, allowing me to make smart consumer decisions, outside of what is recommended by the sales person. But your comment above really rubbed me the wrong way. I want people to buy more American products and continue our way of life. I still want to be able to try on the clothing, to hold the pack in my hand, to try out the features, not assuming that the internet is correct and then make a faulty purchase decision.

Jason can go **** himself. In his mind, he wants to be the Sam Walton of the hunting world. I for one, do not want to see the hunting world destroyed by the Walmart philosophy.

I'd have to agree at least 97% on what Nevada said ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^