Kimber Montana vs. Tikka T3x Superlite vs. Savage 16 LWH (308)

[Jason Snyder]

Understood. And none of it is really aimed at you.



I/we use it as a means to quantify hit rates. When asked on a particular shot whether they can hit it or not- most will say "I think so" or "I'm confident". Past straight up rested close range shots, saying "I'm confident" doesn't really mean anything as everyone one every target has a "hit rate"- we all miss at some point. Knowing that you will have around a 70% hit rate on that target DOES tell you something. And it doesn't take long- I do it subconsciously while getting into position, taking the safety off, pressing the trigger etc.


If we use the below as an easy example-

The gun is a-
1.5moa gun system
Rested kneeling off of a pack frame and you are calm



Target is-
a deer (8 inch kill zone) 400 yards away feeding slowly broadside.
Wind is shifty from 1-5 o'clock at at 2-6 mph.



Would you/someone KNOW how often you'll hit it? Or rather how often you'll miss?




It's always stated that one should "be practiced and confident that they can shoot ______ range before doing so in an animal", especially when LR shooting comes up. Yet if a person doesn't know how often they'll hit a certain target, what is the confidence based upon?

Roger. I wasn't trying to be a smart ass either, I appreciate the knowledge you bring on long range shooting

I'm like Luke in that I'm a 400 and in kind of guy.


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[Lip_Ripper Guy]

I've had a Tikka T3 stainless synthetic in 270 WSM for quite a few years (10+ I'd guess). It shoots very well. It's nothing fancy, but gets the job done. My biggest complaint is the safety. Mine comes off very easily.

In October I picked up a Kimber Montana in 6.5 Creedmoor. I love the gun. It came in at 5#1oz bare, and 6# exactly with a Leupold VX3i 3-10x40.

View attachment 46250

With under 10 rounds and factory ammo I was shooing about 3/4" groups. I got them a little bit smaller over the next 10 rounds of factory. Then with my hand loads I got down to about 4/10". This is shot off a bi-pod and not a sled. I'll take that any day.

View attachment 46252

 

[luke moffat]

Just got off the phone with Kimber's customer service. I explained fully the experimentation and documentation that I've done on the rifle's performance, etc., and was cool-headed during the call. The results:

Eight (8) week turnaround time for service. No money back. That's all they 'can' offer.

Unacceptable, in my opinion. Say it takes a couple of service trips - 4 months + shipping. Also, I'm out of a rifle that whole time, and the result is, if not a 'fixed' rifle that may well only shoot with a single non-hunting load (since they don't specify in their warranty what type of round), a used receiver with a new barrel that I then am going to go sell and take a hit on it. I also have to take it and test it after I get it back, at least with a few different types of ammo.

Thanks for the heads up, wapitibob, Formidilosus, and others who forewarned me. I took a risk and my number came up.

Let this thread serve as a warning for future purchasers of Kimber Montana rifles. Doesn't necessarily mean yours will suck, but I don't think it can't be said that you're taking a risk. They deserve an opportunity to make it right, but this should stand as a warning to those without the time/money/desire/inclination to get embroiled in 'fixing' a rifle that ought to come right from the factory. This is likely my first and last Kimber rifle.

Will continue to document any further action that takes place, and the results with the Tikka. I have rings in today that I will try on it Friday morning, most likely.

*Edit: before someone says that they're being true to their guarantee, I fully 100% agree on that. No dispute there. However, for prospective buyers, if you have no desire to be involved in something like this, I would not purchase a Kimber Montana 308. No idea what percentage will or won't live up to their accuracy guarantee, but I risked it and this is the result. Take it for what it's worth to you.

I still don't feel like I misled you on this. I stated a couple of times in this thread all mine shoot something better than 1.5" and a couple I have found a load to .75"-1.25" depending on the day. I see several 1.5" groups above you have shot which is right inline with what I said you can expect. I can see the displeasure if you are expecting a 1 MOA rifle and you should be let down that its not doing that for you given the "guarantee". Of course I always look at those "guarantees" much like how Tommy Boy breaks down how good a guarantee is....love that movie.

I guess it pays to have low expectations.....which I tried to convey that I had....therefore I am not as easily disappointed.

 

[luke moffat]

Roger. I wasn't trying to be a smart ass either, I appreciate the knowledge you bring on long range shooting

I'm like Luke in that I'm a 400 and in kind of guy.


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I am more like a 300 yard kind of guy for hunting...just plink some at 400 on and off....have only killed one animal (a caribou) over 400 yards (407)....and that was before I had any sense....I was 17 and thought I knew it all with a fancy pants rangefinder.

 

[GKPrice]

No experience with Kimber but my Tikka that has MOA guarantee never came with a target.

You know ? I seem to remember a magazine review that did mention at least load data or details of brand of ammo mentioned because when I bought the Hunter,looking for that nonexistent target

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[Jason Snyder]

LOL. Last year I killed three animals at a combined total range of less than 250 yards, all with a 1/2 MOA rifle


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[GKPrice]

No experience with Kimber but my Tikka that has MOA guarantee never came with a target.

Nor mine or any that I have worked with. Lots of luck getting that kind of service from Beretta USA too

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[AK Troutbum]

LOL. Last year I killed three animals at a combined total range of less than 250 yards, all with a 1/2 MOA rifle


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It's kind of funny how we pay so much attention to placing shots at 100 yards and trying to just auger out one big ol' hole. I get it, I'm one of those guy's, but when it comes to hunting and stalking big game, the most important thing to me is getting as close as I can possibly get. I don't care if I'm hunting blacktail with the most accurate high power rifle I own, I try to get within bow range, if I can. As far as I'm concern that's what makes hunting, hunting. But I digress....now back to the thread.


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[Rorschach]

luke - I don't think you misled me either, man. You're fine.

I still don't feel like I misled you on this. I stated a couple of times in this thread all mine shoot something better than 1.5" and a couple I have found a load to .75"-1.25" depending on the day. I see several 1.5" groups above you have shot which is right inline with what I said you can expect. I can see the displeasure if you are expecting a 1 MOA rifle and you should be let down that its not doing that for you given the "guarantee". Of course I always look at those "guarantees" much like how Tommy Boy breaks down how good a guarantee is....love that movie.

I guess it pays to have low expectations.....which I tried to convey that I had....therefore I am not as easily disappointed.

 

[GKPrice]

This tapatalk ain't easy
Maybe it's best to just cut ur losses and move to a Tikka, maybe you'll end up a Kimber basher and maybe you will have learned that this is not an exact science. My PM says the rest

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[Rorschach]

I think I am going to cut my losses and at least try the Tikka. And if that doesn't work, then just go custom and spend more money.

Only thing I'll say about Kimber and Kimber CS is my direct experience, and it will be right here for all to see. I've not exaggerated, embellished, falsely represented facts, etc. etc. It simply and literally is what it is. No bashing necessary.

What does 'bashing' mean, exactly? Would you say that I've 'bashed' Kimber at any point so far?

This tapatalk ain't easy
Maybe it's best to just cut ur losses and move to a Tikka, maybe you'll end up a Kimber basher and maybe you will have learned that this is not an exact science. My PM says the rest

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[Afhunter1]

After reading this whole post I'd just like to know what the trigger breaks at? 15# guns can shoot great with 4# triggers but a 6#er won't very often. Get it to 1.5# and you may really improve accuracy in my opinion.

Good luck to ya with it!

 

[GKPrice]

Nah. Not at all. You are sensitized to all things Kimber right now but it's kinda understandable. My offer stands ....

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[GKPrice]

Good question although they're usually 3 to 3 1/2 ime

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[GKPrice]

Sometimes these experiences are worth it for what we learn about ourselves

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[Rorschach]

I never put it on a scale, and I'm not good with estimating that sort of thing.

I do know that I can score >90pts consistently with 10 shots on a B8 pistol target at 25m with a Glock, so crappy triggers aren't really an issue for me - it's so much better than a Glock's trigger.

The trigger is, in my opinion, awesome, and unlike any other firearm's trigger I have. Take this with a grain of salt since I've spent the last few years shooting mainly AR triggers (Geissele, BCM) and factory Glock triggers. It has an almost imperceptible amount of creep and over-travel; to me, it feels like I'm pressing on a stationary piece of metal - just apply pressure and eventually you hear a break.

After reading this whole post I'd just like to know what the trigger breaks at? 15# guns can shoot great with 4# triggers but a 6#er won't very often. Get it to 1.5# and you may really improve accuracy in my opinion.

Good luck to ya with it!

 

[thinhorn_AK]

I havnt read this whole thing but, have you shot thisnrifle from a sled?

 

[Rorschach]

No sir.

I havnt read this whole thing but, have you shot thisnrifle from a sled?

 

[mallacootasmoothie]

I have been following this thread since the start, but can't remember reading if you've had someone else shoot the rifle?

Would be interesting to let someone else have a go and see if you get the same results.

 

[thinhorn_AK]

That might be something to look into. If you can get the rifle fired ina perfectly consistent manner and it still gets those groups then it's certainly not you.