Killing Elk- Caliber vs Caliber

[sneaky]

I’ll be honest ... I don’t enjoy shooting my .300 Win Mag at the range. I’d much rather shoot my 6.5CM since the recoil is negligible. Everyone is different in their sensitivity to recoil. As long as you don’t develop a flinch - I don’t see a problem with it. I’ve taken 4 Elk with my .300 Win Mag and I don’t even remember feeling any recoil at the time. But if I went to the range to check my “zero” - I’m good for three shots and that’s about all that’s tolerable to me without dreading the next shot.

That's what I notice the most. Guys at the range missing the entire 16" target at a hundred yards from flinching and jerking. I usually have them put it in my lead sled to zero it. The animal deserves that much.

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[204guy]

I don't even know why Form tries? Especially here.

All that matters is what wound cavity Y bullet creates at XYZ impact velocity. RPM's matter some also, that's it. The diameter of the bullet before expansion is irrelevant. There is a tremendous amount of overlap between all the hunting calibers. It's easy to get poor results with bigger calibers using the wrong bullet and also easy to make the small cal. punch way above traditional thinking using the right bullet.

 

[howl]

All this talk about recoil...

Two things people tend to overlook are the effects of recoil on a shooter related to the stock and the trigger. A stock that fits and comes right back is less abusive under recoil. A trigger that breaks clean and easy when you need it to means less anticipation of kick. This relates directly to shotguns. Plenty of people can't tolerate a rifle that kicks as much as their shotgun. The shotgun does not bother them. Taking all day to break a shot with an equivalent recoil rifle is some kind of torture.

Another concept is that shooting the big overbore magnums is not a regular thing. You don't build an expensive barrel burner and wear it out shooting it unless someone else is paying the bills. You shoot it in and practice with something else. Bullets and powder cost. Barrel life is finite.

So, get a good well fitted gun with a good trigger that doesn't kick more than a pheasant or duck load. Shoot to verify your sighting system, drop and drift if you're that good. Then put the sucker up and have fun with something else.

This brings up the idea of the big & little pairing of trajectory. I never had luck with it at extended ranges, but it'd be slick have a .260, etc. and .300, etc that matched trajectory. It would be cool. I must not shoot well enough to make it work, though.

 

[gabenzeke]

I think there is a lot of merit to this. I recently bought a 300 RUM. Haven't shot it yet and was already looking into a brake, which I hate, because I don't want the thing to be louder. Then I found a recoil chart that showed a 3 1/2" 12 gauge has quite a bit more recoil and I shoot those all day at ducks and geese, no problem. Granted I'm not sitting at a bench, but I'm going to keep that in mind and hope the thought helps me not flinch.

All this talk about recoil...

Two things people tend to overlook are the effects of recoil on a shooter related to the stock and the trigger. A stock that fits and comes right back is less abusive under recoil. A trigger that breaks clean and easy when you need it to means less anticipation of kick. This relates directly to shotguns. Plenty of people can't tolerate a rifle that kicks as much as their shotgun. The shotgun does not bother them. Taking all day to break a shot with an equivalent recoil rifle is some kind of torture.

Another concept is that shooting the big overbore magnums is not a regular thing. You don't build an expensive barrel burner and wear it out shooting it unless someone else is paying the bills. You shoot it in and practice with something else. Bullets and powder cost. Barrel life is finite.

So, get a good well fitted gun with a good trigger that doesn't kick more than a pheasant or duck load. Shoot to verify your sighting system, drop and drift if you're that good. Then put the sucker up and have fun with something else.

This brings up the idea of the big & little pairing of trajectory. I never had luck with it at extended ranges, but it'd be slick have a .260, etc. and .300, etc that matched trajectory. It would be cool. I must not shoot well enough to make it work, though.

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[sneaky]

I think there is a lot of merit to this. I recently bought a 300 RUM. Haven't shot it yet and was already looking into a brake, which I hate, because I don't want the thing to be louder. Then I found a recoil chart that showed a 3 1/2" 12 gauge has quite a bit more recoil and I shoot those all day at ducks and geese, no problem. Granted I'm not sitting at a bench, but I'm going to keep that in mind and hope the thought helps me not flinch.

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It can't be much worse than those 3.5 Nitro brand TSS loads. Not those freaking Remington nitros lol. Those things will knock the spit out of your mouth. At about $10 a shot they make 300 RUM ammo look cheap.

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[204guy]

Lay down prone and touch off a couple of 12 ga. loads and see if you want to do it all day.

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[JP100]

Killing 'power' is impossible to measure and compare, every shot, every animal, every situation is different, there are no constants. Once you go down this discussion paths everyone has a million different opinions, and we cant prove hardly any of them

Shot placement and bullet construction are MORE important than anything else, no animal will be able to tell you if a bullet was 0.02 of an inch bigger or smaller, or 50fps difference in impact speed.

What you should be looking at is what rifle can you shoot comfortably? Is that enough to get the job done? If not, why?

I have just returned from my first international hunt as a hunter/client(for mid Asian Ibex), I packed my 300wsm which I do not overly like, one other hunter had a 300wsm, and my uncle packed his .243.
Guess what, the Ibex shot with the .243 was every bit as dead as the ones shot with the .300wsms, I missed a couple of shots, the other 300wsm shooting scoped himself badly.
My uncle fired one bullet, killed one Ibex.

The most experienced hunters I know generally shoot with small calibers, even .223s,.222s, on 'big game'.

Im not saying you should go out shooting elk with a .222, but your far better off having a milder caliber that you shoot well, is easy to carry and cheap to run.

You can only kill animals once, I think people have become obsessed with 'dropping' game dead on the spot. A good shoot with an animal running a few yards is no worse than an animal dropping dead on the spot.

Being able to shoot effectively is the number one most important factor to killing game efficiency, its that simple.

 

[mtmuley]

I think there is a lot of merit to this. I recently bought a 300 RUM. Haven't shot it yet and was already looking into a brake, which I hate, because I don't want the thing to be louder. Then I found a recoil chart that showed a 3 1/2" 12 gauge has quite a bit more recoil and I shoot those all day at ducks and geese, no problem. Granted I'm not sitting at a bench, but I'm going to keep that in mind and hope the thought helps me not flinch.

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I've had a .300 RUM, no brake and hunted with it since 2000. Let me know how that bench session goes. mtmuley

 

[gabenzeke]

Are you saying it's going to be rough? Honestly not sure what to expect, but I know shotguns have never bugged me. Probably won't be sending a hundred rounds down range...that's for sure.

I've had a .300 RUM, no brake and hunted with it since 2000. Let me know how that bench session goes. mtmuley

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[mtmuley]

First thing I would do is get a Past recoil shield. I've shot a lot of 12 guage magnum loads too. Mostly at birds so didn't notice the recoil. That RUM will get your attention. If you are in any way recoil sensitive bench shooting, yeah it's gonna be rough. mtmuley

 

[2five7]

Personally, anything from a 6.5 with a 140 on up will kill Elk effectively, provided you shoot them in a vital organ. The quickest non-CNS kills I've seen were from a 264 WM with a 140 accubond, just plain old through the ribs, they take 2 steps and tip over dead. 7mag, 28 Nosler would be my choice in that caliber, with a 175-180 Berger or Eld-X/Eld-M anywhere from 2800-3200 fps will get it done at the ranges you're talking about.

 

[MuleyFever]

Isn't the recoil from a rifle much faster than that of a shotgun. I don't think the recoil in lbs is the whole story.

 

[sneaky]

I'll add this. Our friend who does load development for us decided to take the brake off of our McWhorter 300 RUM because he hated how loud it was. He shot it twice and put the brake back on. He's taking it out this coming week, but the brake is going with him. He said it was "not fun" to shoot off the bench without the brake. He has no issues with 3.5 turkey loads from the bench either. Recoil impulse has a lot to do with it. That 300 isn't a light build either.

Are you saying it's going to be rough? Honestly not sure what to expect, but I know shotguns have never bugged me. Probably won't be sending a hundred rounds down range...that's for sure.

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[mtmuley]

Mine weighs about 8.5 pounds. It's a nasty elk killer that I can pack a long way. 200 grain Accubonds at 3200 are wicked. mtmuley

 

[sneaky]

How'd your breaks hunt go?

Mine weighs about 8.5 pounds. It's a nasty elk killer that I can pack a long way. 200 grain Accubonds at 3200 are wicked. mtmuley

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[mtmuley]

Lots of bulls, not what I was looking for. Back out on the 17th. mtmuley

 

[JeffRaines]

Isn't the recoil from a rifle much faster than that of a shotgun. I don't think the recoil in lbs is the whole story.

Yep. Theres velocity and things like stock fit.

Haven't shot it yet and was already looking into a brake, which I hate, because I don't want the thing to be louder.

Wearing ear pro, a brake isn't any worse than anything else.

Its only an issue if you don't wear ear pro - but heres the rub. Every shot you take without ear protection in - braked or unbraked - causes permanent, irreversible hearing damage. So if you're really worried about your hearing, and you should be! You should be wearing ear pro for every shot anyway.

As far as caliber selection, I think Form hit it right. We're so busy looking at ballistics and comparing different bullets/cartridges and in reality about 1% of us are actually going to push them to their limits. Not to say there aren't some guys out there who do push the limits, but for the average hunter a 308/7-08 is sufficient for all the hunting they'll ever do. A lot of guys just like to make mountains out of molehills. Add in the fact that these guys want a 5lb 300 win mag and want something capable to 800 yards... not saying its impossible, but the average guy who shoots an average amount isn't going to be consistent enough to shoot a 5lb rifle magnum at 800 yards.

 

[Scoony]

I am shooting a 338 win mag with a brake. This is a Dakota Arms and the brake they use is not really much louder then without the brake. It is much easier on the shoulder than my Ruger American 30-06. I can shoot 40-60 rounds through that rifle in an afternoon on the bench without any issues. With the 30-06, 20 rounds and I am not having fun. Problem is that 338 with scope weights in at 9.5 lbs. It was not fun hauling it up and down through the timber a few weeks ago in Colorado. At the time, I was wishing I had taken my 308 instead.

 

[hodgeman]

Isn't the recoil from a rifle much faster than that of a shotgun. I don't think the recoil in lbs is the whole story.

Yeah...you can't really compare the recoil between shotguns and rifles. Recoil velocity makes a huge difference as does shooting position. Few people shoot shotguns prone and few people sight in a rifle from standing.

A 300RUM from a bench is a much different critter than shooting at ducks regardless of what the foot pounds are.

 

[792]

I agree with some of the above info about finding the caliber/shoot ability that matches your abilities and needs. I have seen guys pack big/fast calibers that can’t shoot, and guys who use middle of the road calibers and drop everything due to shot placement. I also think you have to really look at what range you are actually going to shoot at, packing a 9-10 pound LR setup when a T3 in 6.5 would be best for you makes no sense to me. Last season I was hunting deer and my brother in law had an elk tag and a 300 WSM, he lined up on a broadside big B.C. elk at 200 yards and lifted his gun to nothing but black in the scope so I handed him the .243 with 80 gr TTSX for a pass through that took both lungs and the elk took 5 steps. I mostly pack my .243 for everything except gbears ( hopefully we can hunt them again ) and leave the magnums at home, looking to add a 6.5 Creedmoor soon and will probably use those two rifles for my 98%. I don’t think the .243 is a perfect elk killer and I would not tell someone to take one as a first choice, but some people make it sound like it would bounce off. Shot placement and a quality bullet at decent speed will fill the freezer.