Kifaru Bedlam Designing

[Kenneth@Kifaru]

Loving the feedback! and just letting people know. The Bedlam isn't the only thing we are working on. We are also working on some other products with new materials and fabrics on other projects. Plus maybe some more Internal frame system options @Ryan Avery . The Bedlam will be a good addition to the line up that will fit an empty space in our current line up. Through testing right now I already know it will be my favorite bag for this season.

 

[SDHNTR]

My goodness this is getting unnecessarily over complicated. Look at all these asks from people here. All these Knick knacks guys want. Insane. It’s just a darn backpack. It’s a simple tool! All it needs to do is carry weight comfortably and be lightweight but durable. That’s it!

It’s kinda like a rifle scope. We don’t need more features, we don’t need more options, bells and whistles, we don’t need more skus. We need reliable, simple, light functionality.

This is like a really good vs just ok restaurant. Go to a place with a million things on the menu…. You know it’s all gone just be mediocre at best. You can’t possibly keep all those ingredients fresh. Most will be frozen and thawed. The staff can’t possibly focus on making all those dishes at a high quality level. In contrast, go to a restaurant that has just a handful of options on the menu. All the ingredients are gonna probably be fresh, the chef gets to focus on his culinary talents without distractions of other things he/she is not good at, and the overall experience is much better. There’s a correlation here.

Just this last fall I gave my Kifaru pack as a thank you to a buddy who helped me packing out a Shiras moose I killed. He had a crappy Eberlestock that would not stabilize a load. I thought no big deal, it will stoke him out and I’ll just get another one. So once I got home I went to Kifaru’s website and it made my head spin. So many options. The frame I had previously and really liked was no longer available or had been modified into something I didn’t recognize anymore. And there were so many bag options I had no idea what bag to choose and what to put it on. I honestly didn’t want to devote the required brainpower to what should be a simple decision, and sorry to say, I clicked off the page, went to a competitors website and made My $700 purchase after just a few minutes of easy deliberation.

Just my personal opinion. Can’t be all things to all people.

 

[wnelson14]

My goodness this is getting unnecessarily over complicated. Look at all these asks from people here. All these Knick knacks guys want. Insane. It’s just a darn backpack. It’s a simple tool! All it needs to do is carry weight comfortably and be lightweight but durable. That’s it!

It’s kinda like a rifle scope. We don’t need more features, we don’t need more options, bells and whistles, we don’t need more skus. We need reliable, simple, light functionality.

This is like a good vs bad restaurant. Go to a place with a million things on the menu…. You know it’s all gone just be mediocre at best. You can’t possibly keep all those ingredients fresh. Most will be frozen and thawed. The staff can’t possibly focus on making all those dishes at a high quality level. In contrast, go to a restaurant that has just a handful of options on the menu. All the ingredients are gonna probably be fresh, the chef gets to focus on his culinary talents without distractions of other things he/she is not good at, and the overall experience is much better. There’s a correlation here.

Just this last fall I gave my Kifaru pack as a thank you to a buddy who helped me packing out a Shiras moose I killed. He had a crappy Eberlestock that would not stabilize a load. I thought no big deal, it will stoke him out and I’ll just get another one. So once I got home I went to Kifaru’s website and it made my head spin. So many options. The frame I had previously and really liked was no longer available or had been modified into something I didn’t recognize anymore. And there were so many bag options I had no idea what bag to choose and what to put it on. I honestly didn’t want to devote the required brainpower to what should be a simple decision, and sorry to say, I clicked off the page, went to a competitors website and made My $700 purchase after just a few minutes of easy deliberation.

Just my personal opinion. Can’t be all things to all people.

I understand where you are coming from, but this thread was to take members input on a new bag design, not complain about the many options Kifaru has. Maybe this new bag with replace 5 current bags (you never Know). Lastly know one is stopping you from starting a backpack company with simple bags and a 1 sku line.

 

[strongarm]

Side pockets that are zippered. Ideally these would be dimensional so they grow outward vs. inward taking up space in the main bag. If the pocket zippers are “L” shaped, add a tab loop near the bend of the “L” to allow for a carabiner or grimlock to “lock” the zipper pull in the most vertical position before turning in toward the frame. This would allow for the pocket to be open-top for longer items (tent poles, tripod, trekking poles, etc.), while keeping the rest of the contents secure and preventing the zipper from working down on the vertical axis during user movement and stress of whatever is in the pocket pulling on the zipper. This would also satisfy most user needs and the argument of open vs. closed can be avoided as closed-top or open top preferences can both be accommodated. A “lockout solution” like this may also reduce some stress on the zipper itself, too, for zipper durability/longevity.

Full through-the-top, two-way zippered opening into the main bag. This would allow access to the main bag like on the Fulcrum and Minikeg (just offset in this case) which have snow collar builds, but with the ability to splay open when needed with top-down opening…and also allow peek-n-grab access from the bottom up. It’s a good compromise for a top-loader style bag where contents are now accessible without becoming a full panel loader. Two full through-the-top two way zippers would be even better, offering the most flexibility for all scenarios depending what and how a user packs their bag.

Multiple belt pouch matrixes. This would allow users to customize for their needs. In the prototype thus far, it looks there are three candidate regions: one atop the snow collar when folded over, one above the shove it pocket, and one on the shove it itself. Items in these pockets would be small/light, particularly on the shove it. I don’t think it would risk the bag getting too back-heavy. The Admin pouch, for example, is slim in depth and would not stick out too far if attached to the shove it region and it would be great for basic quick-access essentials. If no PALS webbing on the bag, having at least multiple belt pouch regions would offer the ability to add a little volume and organization based on preferences and time of year. If just the matrixes, there’s little-to-no weight penalty for all three of these regions. The matrix above the shove it should be placed high enough so the bottom of a large belt pouch doesn’t run overtop the shove it itself.

Asymmetrical snow collar. For this (and all) bags where the snow collar is able to function as the lid, I’d really like to see an asymmetrical cut on the snow collar itself. Meaning, the fabric on the frame side is longer than that of the fabric toward the outer face of the bag. When the snow collar is functioning as the lid, it would wrap more cleanly across the top and down the face of the bag vs. get a little bunchy as can happen now when the bag is near/at capacity, creating an infiltration point during precipitation events. Having that backside of the snow collar longer would allow more coverage for contents that are above the natural shoulder of the bag without having to rely on adding a lid when bag is filled up, resulting in more hardware, straps, and weight for ounce-counters (of which I am not). I think overloading will happen more often on a bag of this target overall volume as compared to others in the lineup.

Dimensional pocket on the shove it pocket itself. This would be ideal for beanie, gloves, TP, headlamp, batteries, and other quick-access, possibles-type items. Maybe even large enough for binoculars. It would also reduce the need to run a Sherman pocket—which I love and use on just about everything—overtop the shove it itself, which could get awkward. Perhaps consider making similar in shape/style/access to the outer pocket on the Kutthroat, which has both dimension and an outer slash pocket built in. A dimensional pocket will allow access to those items without having to release compression straps on the rest of the bag.

Cordura build throughout, which I think is already the case; much more durable.

Bladder sleeve inside to provide some protection. Can also be used for some interior organization.

Rows of interior PALS webbing.

Multiple interior tab loops with included K-clip compression straps for securing meat, bag contents.

Bottom compression straps for load handling, additional stowage (glassing pad, sleeping pad, etc.).

 

[MightyWhitey]

“ If the pocket zippers are “L” shaped, add a tab loop near the bend of the “L” to allow for a carabiner or grimlock to “lock” the zipper pull in the most vertical position before turning in toward the frame. This would allow for the pocket to be open-top for longer items (tent poles, tripod, trekking poles, etc.), while keeping the rest of the contents secure and preventing the zipper from working down on the vertical axis during user movement and stress of whatever is in the pocket pulling on the zipper.”

This seems like a great idea. I have the hoodlum and use one side pocket closed and one open at the top most of the time but I still want to be able to close both.

 

[prm]

We now have people actually bitching about the opportunity to provide their two cents on what they like in pack design. As if a company offering choices is somehow hurting them. Sigh..

To the creative types, I enjoy reading the different thoughts and ideas.

 

[SDHNTR]

I wasn’t complaining. We were asked for thoughts. I gave mine. It happened to be contrary to a lot of other thoughts. So that’s bad? Isn’t sharing thoughts what this forum is for? People like different gizmos on their packs apparently. That doesn’t make their thoughts more valuable than mine. I just happen to prefer simple. Hunting is complicated enough. I don’t want my pack decisions to be complicated. It only does a simple job.

If I was running a hunting gear company, I would want to hear all thoughts and viewpoints, even if the thoughts were different than my own.

 

[prm]

They asked for inputs on the design of one specific pack. That’s all.

 

[DeadLastJask]

Personally I think it’s awesome what Kifaru is doing with this thread and the video series. It’s obvious that they give a crap about the customers and want to know what they want, and not just what pro-staff wants in a pack. That’s pretty unique for a backpack company. So I’m just here to watch the process of designing a pack and enjoy the ride.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[SDHNTR]

Apparently I’m not the only one that thinks less is more.

 

[Kenneth@Kifaru]

Apparently I’m not the only one that thinks less is more.

Interesting bringing that on in haha. And it’s kind of a bit different thing than this thread. That’s just for MC and CB color variations they don’t sell. I’m all for more options on bags because it can cater to everyone in how they load their gear. I’ll definitely agree with you that our website was not good and it pushed away sales. But I don’t agree with you on doing less bags. We have two frame options, pick a tactical frame or a lite frame. Once you make that frame purchase you are done on buying a frame realistically won’t have ever buy one again. And then you can buy what ever bags you want to put on the frame. Get one bag for everything. Or people buy multiple bags. That’s the unique thing about us. Our frames haul weight regardless. But We have options for bags to put on the frame. I do appreciate your opinion because everyone does have a right to one. Glad you like the competitors pack. There is room for everyone in this industry. Really most of all the companies for backpacks have their unique parts that cater to others. But I will say that a lot backpack companies have similar looking Lumbar system to another company’s system that has been out for over 20 years

 

[SDHNTR]

Interesting bringing that on in haha. And it’s kind of a bit different thing than this thread. That’s just for MC and CB color variations they don’t sell. I’m all for more options on bags because it can cater to everyone in how they load their gear. I’ll definitely agree with you that our website was not good and it pushed away sales. But I don’t agree with you on doing less bags. We have two frame options, pick a tactical frame or a lite frame. Once you make that frame purchase you are done on buying a frame realistically won’t have ever buy one again. And then you can buy what ever bags you want to put on the frame. Get one bag for everything. Or people buy multiple bags. That’s the unique thing about us. Our frames haul weight regardless. But We have options for bags to put on the frame. I do appreciate your opinion because everyone does have a right to one. Glad you like the competitors pack. There is room for everyone in this industry. Really most of all the companies for backpacks have their unique parts that cater to others. But I will say that a lot backpack companies have similar looking Lumbar system to another company’s system that has been out for over 20 years

My point was wrt the website being confusing. Whether accurate or not, it gave the impression of too many options so it was difficult to weed through em all.

Don’t get me wrong, I loved my Kifaru pack (DT) for many years! It’s just when I went to replace it, I couldn’t figure out what to replace it with! Guess I’m the exception and don’t need lots of options in a backpack.

Thanks for your respectful response.

 

[Kenneth@Kifaru]

My point was wrt the website being confusing. Whether accurate or not, it gave the impression of too many options so it was difficult to weed through em all.

Don’t get me wrong, I loved my Kifaru pack (DT) for many years! It’s just when I went to replace it, I couldn’t figure out what to replace it with! Guess I’m the exception and don’t need lots of options in a backpack.

Thanks for your respectful response.

For sure and we noticed the difficulties with the website. The new website will fix those issues.

No problem, and just know I understand your frustration with the old website and I appreciate your input on that! We are definitely excited for the new website to launch.

 

[Kenneth@Kifaru]

We appreciate all the input! We are looking at all the comments. And even if some don’t go on this pack. It can be apart of another design.

 

[Aussiewanderer]

Just re-release the woodsman, 3400-4000 mainbag. Update and re-release spotter scope pockets, remove center zip, add some more tabs for better mounting of sherman and maybe also bring it out in Xpac. It'll make a great fishing pack when you swap the sherman for the hydro pack.
Built in side pockets like the Hoodlum would be cool though.

 

[mt100gr.]

We appreciate all the input! We are looking at all the comments. And even if some don’t go on this pack. It can be apart of another design.

Man, just in the spirit of this thread and all of the suggestions, good, bad and otherwise, I think there has to be a compilation of EVERYTHING mentioned!! The Rokslide "Threadlam"! Or at least a drawing! I'd love to see the strapflappocketzippertabloop monster! with an internal and external frame!!

Honestly, I have tried every one of the big hunting pack brands in various flavors including 4 different Kifaru frames and probably 6 or 8 bags. I recently sold everything except my frame for this exact reason! I like what you guys do and always try to keep up with the new offerings as I am still looking for the perfect pack....

 

[judders87]

I'm in favor of side stretch pockets with full length side zip/open pockets.

 

[Citizen]

Ditch all bladder sleeve and add internal pals that are laser/die cut that are also Velcro. This way you can internalize items.

If people are really using packs and outdoor gear they will not use bladders as they are fragile and tedious.

 

[Archeryshooter]

I find it interesting how this somewhat devolved from a design input thread into other things.

I have been running Kifaru for many years with a few different frames and gotta say my wife and I currently run 2 lite frames with the Ma Deuce, Reckoning or Stryker XL attached depending on our situation. I’m excited about this project and grateful to Kifaru for listening to our comments. Keep up the great job!!

 

[Archeryshooter]

• Full zip on side pocket
• No PALs on grab-it thingy.. Adding an external pocket to that would be a recipe for floppy. And weight would be getting pretty far back.
• Also, if it has a true meat shelf you should be able to organize gear inside main bag without having to stick pockets on the outside. In truth, I’ve never understood attaching a bunch of external pockets for organization and then having a few thousand sq/in of empty bag while hunting.
• If you must…. Maybe PALs for a pocket at the top back of pack. Just above grab-it.
• Internal pocket somewhere for quick access to important things that can’t get misplaced (ex: headlamp). In addition to chamber pocket that will likely not be accessed throughout hunt (wallet, keys, tags).

Let’s talk use case, because that drives everything. For me:

• Up to 5-days cool to cold (CO 1st)
• Pack in 3-6 miles, set up a camp, day hunt from camp.
• Shoot elk or deer, pack out deboned meat.
• I do not use a spotter (binos). So side pocket would be rain jacket, water purification, sitting pad, snacks, and any items I will likely access during day.
• Main bag would be kill kit, puffy and maybe woobie or insulated bottoms if really cold and potential to sit for extended time.

In the past, in addition to Reckoning, Nomad II, and other brands, I’ve used a Stryker. The shelf was my volume area (meat or camp in a dry bag), while the main bag is for day hunt gear. This pack, assuming high 3k bag volume, allows for meat on shelf and camp in main bag to be hauled together with my old back being the limiting factor for weight. This requires a reasonably dialed in setup.

*Make it just big enough to support 3-5 days.
*Nothing floppy in day hunt mode.
*Make grab-it (or whatever is back there) removable. (Less is more to me).
*Straps to secure meat to frame don’t crush gear in pack (to me, that means separate compression straps).
*Ensure meat can be held high enough, while also allowing bulky, lighter loads to use all space between frame and bag.
*Meat shelf accessible with buckles. No threading of straps, fiddling with load lifters, etc.

I could spend hours thinking this through…

Some great thoughts you presented. However, for me I just don’t understand or ever use a “meat shelf”; even though some of my bags have them. Just my opinion but I prefer a large enough bag to put meat inside with a contractor bag. I guess this is why having multiple bag options is a plus and we all win!!