Kids rifle manifesto

[Tahoe1305]

curious as well about reducing powder to slow down a particular lighter but not super light bullet, say running a 108 or 120g bullet but targeting a slower than 6.5cm factory ammo muzzle velocity - 2500 for arguments sake - would that be a recipe for an "extra low recoil" option for kids? Of course also having the much shorter range limits but that would be built in for the first couple years no matter what for me. I have messed around with the calculators but I have now reference for what powder weight would correspond to what velocity change... and would that have a huge detrimental impact on accuracy with regards to deer sized vitals inside 150 or 200 yards? A friend does a little reloading so I could lean on him if it would be a worthwhile path to pursue... The rifle you can grow into and download the bullet and powder for recoil reduction seems attractive vs 6ARC for a few years then graduate to a new rifle...

Again, I know nothing about reloading so if dumb Q its because I am ignorant and you can just so no that isnt a worthwile option...

That’s my plan this year. It’s easy to do. Also shorter more kid friendly barrel helps even more. I’m going to use a 16”.

I said it earlier but a 120g 6.5 bullet has similar BC to 100g 6mm bullet only these comes out 100fps faster or so if you don’t load it back. So you can easily make a 6C energy (for kick concerns) rifle using lighter loaded 6.5C bullets that fly close to the same and retain energy a tad better downrange (heavier weight). Cool thing is you can tune it up as they grow.

If I didn’t have everything needed for 6.5G and 6.5C I’d start from scratch with a 6C/ARC. But 6.5 bullets will work just fine.

(See chart. Pick a powder that will fill the case a tad better starting charge should do fine. Subtract 30fps/inch of barrel from 24”….my case will be close to 2500fps or so)

Edit: the muzzle energy of above described bullet is 20% more than similar length 223 and same as shorter barrel 6C or full length barrel 6ARC.

 

[CoMtnMike]

thank you both so much! Seems like a very viable 1 rifle path. I was thinking 20" barrel but could consider the 16" option - just might give up my desire to use it for learning longer range shooting vs just hunting...

 

[Tahoe1305]

thank you both so much! Seems like a very viable 1 rifle path. I was thinking 20" barrel but could consider the 16" option - just might give up my desire to use it for learning longer range shooting vs just hunting...

Build something you can easily make heavy to assist at first with recoil. Also think LOP and cheek height.

I’ve found that a chassis or something with a very adjustable stock is important. My 6 year old needs almost 1” above bore to align well with my scope.

 

[eric1115]

That’s my plan this year. It’s easy to do. Also shorter more kid friendly barrel helps even more. I’m going to use a 16”.

I said it earlier but a 120g 6.5 bullet has similar BC to 100g 6mm bullet only these comes out 100fps faster or so if you don’t load it back. So you can easily make a 6C energy (for kick concerns) rifle using lighter loaded 6.5C bullets that fly close to the same and retain energy a tad better downrange (heavier weight). Cool thing is you can tune it up as they grow.

If I didn’t have everything needed for 6.5G and 6.5C I’d start from scratch with a 6C/ARC. But 6.5 bullets will work just fine.

(See chart. Pick a powder that will fill the case a tad better starting charge should do fine. Subtract 30fps/inch of barrel from 24”….my case will be close to 2500fps or so)

Edit: the muzzle energy of above described bullet is 20% more than similar length 223 and same as shorter barrel 6C or full length barrel 6ARC.

Just my experience here, not telling you what you should or shouldn't do...

My oldest son started with a 7mm-08 with 120 grain reduced loads (2550ish IIRC), and the recoil difference from that to a 6mm ARC is significant. On paper it doesn't seem like it should be, but it very much is. 10+ grains of bullet plus 15ish grains of powder to get moving, makes a difference.

The difference between a .243AI and a 6mm ARC is quite noticeable as well. Please don't go into it thinking they are all 100-120ish bullets going mid to upper 2k fps so they'll all be about the same from a recoil standpoint.

 

[CoMtnMike]

Build something you can easily make heavy to assist at first with recoil. Also think LOP and cheek height.

I’ve found that a chassis or something with a very adjustable stock is important. My 6 year old needs almost 1” above bore to align well with my scope.

a chassis with quickly adjustable LOP and comb would be cool, but not within my budget. I am thinking hard about a Ruger Gen 2... LOP spacer and brake include. For $20 you can get a 5/8" and 3/4" comb riser to replace the included 1/2" one. And for about $50 you can get a steel weight set to add 1.5lbs to the stock... take it from 6.5lbs bare to 8 and then add the scope... maybe all that and lower loads gets me close to low enough recoil for him, maybe not quite. But thats lots of adjustability without a premium price. it isnt all perfect for me of course, but all options have compromises like anything else without double the budget to spend...

And then I can try to save up for a suppressor next year hopefully which would likely be as much as the rifle + scope setup.... crazy that the can at the end of the barrel costs as much as the rest of such a setup! But folks on here are pretty convincing that it is worth it...

 

[Tahoe1305]

Yeah chassis can be pricey. After the conversation above I went down stairs and threw this together for him to try tonight. Not chassis but very adjustable stock. He could see reticle well.

12.5” 6.5 Grendel. Same powder load as ARC (32grains). 120g bullet out of this barrel was 2400fps last summer. Even with can it’s at 18” and not heavy. Will see how he shoots it.

I will say I’d much prefer to have a bolt gun for him. He’s been shooting a T1x great for a year. But not sure I want to start from scratch and build one. I think I can get him going with the AR.

Edit: forgot Hornady came out with the new ELD-VT bullets. Should be perfect for “training” and a project like this. 100g .45BC. Guessing in my short barrel close to 2600 or so. 1500ftlbs is a smidge (10%) above a standard 223 and a bit less than 6ARC (normal length barrel). I’m gonna snag some and will report back. Picture of my 6.5C loads vs 6.5G. impressive power in such a small case.

 

[jeffpenland123]

I've chimed in on so many different "what rifle for my age XX kid?" threads that I thought I'd try to consolidate my thoughts here.

My oldest son is 14 now, started shooting centerfire rifles at 9. My younger kids started shooting centerfire rifles at between 5-7 yrs old. 5 kids shooting now, and a bunch of their friends that I have been involved or around as they learn to shoot. probably 20-ish kids? Here's what I've learned in the last 5-6 years.

Recoil matters, a lot. "Handles it pretty well" is way way different from "ideal for building skills as a rifleman." My oldest loves to shoot, wasn't scared of 7mm-08 recoil, but it pushed him around a lot more than I realized at the time. He definitely started to anticipate the shot breaking, even when we played the "dad loads the rifle and puts dummies in there" game pretty regularly.

The common "6.5CM/.260/7mm-08 is a great kids' gun" view is a bad one in my opinion. A 120-140 grain bullet going 2700+ FPS over 42-44 grains of powder is going to have recoil energy in the mid teens at least. 15 ft-lb for a 100lb kid is proportionally like an 8 lb .300WM for a 200lb man (~30 ft-lb recoil). A .243 is around 10-12 ft-lb, and a .223 is 5 or 6 ft-lb. Please realize, your kid gets pushed twice as hard as you do by the rifle. A .243 rocks your kid about like a .30-06 hits you, from a physics lens.

The effect that that recoil has on them is greater also (typically). Think about the snap of a rubber band. It does not scale with body weight, from a physics perspective, it affects you and your kid equally. But a snap that is hard enough to just begin to disrupt your focus and concentration is going to be much more disruptive to the focus and concentration of a child.

A brake is not the answer. Permanent hearing damage will occur, and flinching will not be cured. Several of my friends now have kids with braked 6.5CM's or larger. They anticipate the blast and don't shoot better because of the brake. Double hearing protection is a must at the range and should be done in the field but no one does. In the field, adding ear pro to the shot process is not something I am interested in doing. If you're in a box blind, a pair of electronic muffs are great and while not truly hearing safe are probably fine for a shot or two. The problems I've found are making sure everyone present has them in/on before the shot and the difficulty in quiet communication if not everyone has electronics. The process of teaching a kid to focus and stay composed is enough of a challenge without adding those factors. Carrying electronic muffs sucks in the backcountry/mountains, but I realize that's less of an issue for a lot of folks.

Suppressors are a game changer. Reducing recoil and report/blast has a huge positive impact on letting kids learn to focus on the fundamentals and not tense up in anticipation of the explosion that's about to happen 6 inches from their face. Do it if you can.

With nearly perfect correlation, I see two trends.
1) people who recommend a .308 size cartridge or larger (to include 6.5CM, 7mm-08, etc), often with reduced recoil ammo, have not taught very many kids to shoot. It "worked for them" or their kid "handled it fine". That was me with my oldest. We started him with a 7mm-08 for "his first deer rifle" on the conventional wisdom that it was a great kids' cartridge that he could grow into.

2) people who have taught lots of kids to shoot always recommend the very bottom end of the recoil spectrum. .223, 6mm ARC, MAYBE 6CM/.243 with a suppressor (especially if we're talking about teens rather than 10 yr olds). I very seldom see someone who's been really actively engaged in helping more than a handful of kids become good riflemen recommend 6.5CM or larger for a kids' rifle (and the only ones that do are ones who have never tried .223 or small 6mm with good bullets).

The T3x compact .223 is THE young kid's rifle. Second place is the Howa Mini in 6mm ARC (especially if suppressed). Both are cheap to feed and easy to load for, recoil is very low, and they will kill anything that walks in North America out to 400+ yards with the correct bullet selection (see .223 thread and 6mm thread). I've seen consistently better kills with the 77 TMK and 108 ELDM than I ever did with 120 NBT's out of my son's 7mm-08.

To recap, I 100% believe thad no preteen or early teen child is going to have an optimal learning setup with a rifle that runs more than 150 grains combined bullet and powder weight, and if we are approaching that it should 100% be suppressed. 100 to 125 grains combined weight is far preferable, and the difference is not debatable to anyone I know who has tried both ways.

The difference between a kid watching an impact on steel in the scope and telling Dad, "hit!" before hearing the impact, vs asking Dad whether he hit or not is such a big difference, it really is almost two different activities.

Edit to add: Please feel free to add your experiences of teaching kids to shoot. My hope would be that we could get multiple people who have taught lots of kids and seen trends and patterns, vs what I had when I was starting out (not enough different things tried to draw conclusions about what works better or worse). I think a thread that draws a lot of these experiences together could be a great starting point for folks looking to teach their kids.

It's about what ur kid is comfortable with if there comfortable with 7-08 let them shoot it if there comfortable with 308 let them shoot it it's not what u decide for them ik from experience at 6 years old I got a single shot 243 win that weighes 4.5 pounds and a box of Hornady superformance 95 grain sst u can imagine it kicked i quit hunting with it and went to a 303 British military rifle it weighed 100 pounds so it didn't have recoil lol. Also 30-06 with the 125 grain Hornady sst custom lite loads kick like a 6.5 creedmoor.

 

[CTXhunter]

Tikka, but left hand.

The only real way to get one is to get a left hand standard bolt face and have Kampfield bush it for the smaller case head- it’s easy for him, then get a 223 take off barrel and spin on. If you do, I’ll buy/swap the barrel with you.

@Formidilosus is this an open offer? Considering buying a “doner” tikka and a takeoff 223 barrel. I’d love to swap barrels or sell you my doner barrel.

 

[Formidilosus]

@Formidilosus is this an open offer? Considering buying a “doner” tikka and a takeoff 223 barrel. I’d love to swap barrels or sell you my doner barrel.

Yes. However, UM is setting up an ordering 50 left hand 223’s. That would be easier.