Joseph von Benedikt vs Formidilosus

[tpicou]

Then let’s also play the flip side of that coin. What do we call the people who use all those items you listed above to make their hunting better but look down on people who don’t? There’s just as much that contingent here as “Fudds”.

The real point is that most of the equipment we argue over will probably work just fine for most people. Finger pointing and name calling over the use of said items really just makes everybody look like 3rd graders…

Yeah agreed. And lets be real, most people who call names only shoot like 1-3 animals/year.

 

[Article 4]

Can we crowdfund a discussion (debate) between Joseph von Benedikt and @Formidilosus ? Both men are well spoken and have years of experience in their field. However, their opinions differ enough on many topics that I would pay to listen to them debate. It could happen on Shoot2Hunt or the Backcountry Hunting Podcast. I am sure if we threw enough collective money at them, we could make it happen.

I worked with JVB some years ago on some things...I don't personally know Form but I do know some of his work and my interactions with him. We differ on many things. Fine...all good.

At the national writer and reviewer level, bills get paid by being as positive as a person can be about a product, otherwise your ability to get "donated" product to review becomes pretty short lived. In some cases, writers get to keep the review items as part of their compensation. How do I know this, I have first hand experience. Probably something there for both guys....fine, get paid for what you do.

As far as a debate, not interested unless it is a science and significant data based discussion, and not "i did this one test before" kinda stuff. Real data.

Why? We all can listen to 100 opinions in any forum, If we are donating our treasure and time to hear one, it better be F-ing epic!

 

[RockAndSage]

Then let’s also play the flip side of that coin. What do we call the people who use all those items you listed above to make their hunting better but look down on people who don’t? There’s just as much that contingent here as “Fudds”.

The real point is that most of the equipment we argue over will probably work just fine for most people. Finger pointing and name calling over the use of said items really just makes everybody look like 3rd graders…

You're somewhat getting at the issue - it's about limiting mentalities, based on identity. You see it in the car world too.

In this case, using terms like "Fudd" is a kind of shorthand that does have some utility that's worth considering. Because things that demarcate a Fudd include being stuck in very old ways out of identity - not because they work best - and then being smugly dismissive of the new.

And you're right, there's a flip-side to that Fudd coin - in the tactical world they're Tactical Timmies, where if it's not the absolute newest, most high-speed cool-guy gear, it's junk. Tactical Timmy is smugly dismissive of the old and even not-so-old...the fashonista of firearms. These are the guys who'll spend $10k on a "platform" but won't even spend $500 to attend a training class with it. Or they spend $20,000 to attend multiple courses from different celebrity instructors, and blast it all over instagram to show how cool they are, buying all that status.

Part of what's interesting about Fudds, is I think they get that way somewhat because they've seen multiple generations of cool-guys come and go with their fads and their purchased status-posturing. It's a dad's eye-rolling at the enthused ravings of his 14yo's opinions.

I don't know what a big-game hunting version of a Tactical Timmy would be called, but you can be sure part of what he's doing is trying to buy status with his gear. And he's the kind of guy who will feel like his hunts just aren't complete without putting it on instagram. Again, limiting mentalities.

The vast majority of shooters and hunters are between these ends of the spectrum, but having terms for these ends of the spectrum helps people recognize when they're taking things a bit too far.

 

[Chris_in_Idaho]

What is a Fudd?

It originally referred to people who only support ownership of bolt & lever guns and break action shotguns for hunting. You know, guns like Elmer Fudd would use. "You shouldn't have assault weapons, you don't need them for hunting..." Sort the portion of the hunting community that wanted to remain acceptable to their liberal friends by distancing themselves from the 2A guys.

It started with Jim Zumbo. He stated ARs were "terrorist guns" that should be banned from hunting.

Now it's just another slang term to try to discredit whoever you're arguing with.

It's also applied to anyone who enjoys traditional things.

Do you think wood stocks are beautiful? FUDD!!

Lever Actions?
FUDD!!

Classic cartridges?
FUDD!!

Sometimes it's applied fairly, sometimes not.

 

[Chris_in_Idaho]

I don't know what a big-game hunting version of a Tactical Timmy would be called

"WKR"

 

[rabbithuntr]

It's also applied to anyone who enjoys traditional things.

Do you think wood stocks are beautiful? FUDD!!

Lever Actions?
FUDD!!

Classic cartridges?
FUDD!!

Sometimes it's applied fairly, sometimes not.

Form is a proponent of wood stocks and a 60+ year old cartridge


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Elmer J. Fudd]

All this time I thought it was someone who got owned by a rabbit

 

[RadialJett]

This thread has exposed a weakness in the RS lexicon. There needs to be a discussion on naming the counter-fudd. Tikkolytes? PeRCs?

 

[Chris_in_Idaho]

Form is a proponent of wood stocks and a 60+ year old cartridge


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Some Tactical Timmy would probably call him a Fudd...

 

[I live in round valley]

Then let’s also play the flip side of that coin. What do we call the people who use all those items you listed above to make their hunting better but look down on people who don’t? There’s just as much that contingent here as “Fudds”.

The real point is that most of the equipment we argue over will probably work just fine for most people. Finger pointing and name calling over the use of said items really just makes everybody look like 3rd graders…

Gear queer

 

[Schmo]

So, question here. Trying to figure why everyone is calling JVB a fudd. I’ve listened to a ton of his podcasts. He’s a fan of the 7 PRC and the 6.8 Western. He runs a lot of suppressors. The gun that he keeps at home for his family to use in case they see a coyote or something on the property is a suppressed 6 CM. Guys here act like he can’t shoot. At the Hornady media event for the 7 PRC, when he was up to shoot, at 1800 yards his first two were off of the steel, he corrected, then had five consecutive hits at 1800 yards. But according to some on this thread, “He can’t shoot.” If you receive current hunting magazines, you’ll run across an ad for Federal Premium Terminal Ascent. The pic of the mushroomed bullet for the 997 yard animal is his. He doesn’t typically hunt at that range, but Federal wanted a mushroomed bullet from that distance, so he did it.

So, you’re calling a guy a fudd who is running the new modern cartridges, uses multiple suppressors, 5 consecutive hits at 1800 yards, and runs the Browning XBolt rifles. I think you don’t know what you’re talking about.

 

[Steve O]

I’d say JVB is suffering guilt by association…Ron Spoomer and his brother are not the best guys to hang out with.

 

[Schmo]

Ron Spomer may not be the most knowledgeable or up to date, but why is he bad company? I’ve never heard anything bad about him other than maybe lack of knowledge or being old school

 

[DangerRanger]

So, question here. Trying to figure why everyone is calling JVB a fudd. I’ve listened to a ton of his podcasts. He’s a fan of the 7 PRC and the 6.8 Western. He runs a lot of suppressors. The gun that he keeps at home for his family to use in case they see a coyote or something on the property is a suppressed 6 CM. Guys here act like he can’t shoot. At the Hornady media event for the 7 PRC, when he was up to shoot, at 1800 yards his first two were off of the steel, he corrected, then had five consecutive hits at 1800 yards. But according to some on this thread, “He can’t shoot.” If you receive current hunting magazines, you’ll run across an ad for Federal Premium Terminal Ascent. The pic of the mushroomed bullet for the 997 yard animal is his. He doesn’t typically hunt at that range, but Federal wanted a mushroomed bullet from that distance, so he did it.

So, you’re calling a guy a fudd who is running the new modern cartridges, uses multiple suppressors, 5 consecutive hits at 1800 yards, and runs the Browning XBolt rifles. I think you don’t know what you’re talking about.

It’s because he is a huge proponent of old school cartridges and namely large diameter ones for their “bone crushing power” and how energy is needed to kill things.

Hell in the recent spomer bear video he recommended guys take an elk gun, and named 300 win for ….. black bear.

I don’t particularly care either way and don’t dislike the guy, but I find his adherence to needing energy and big boomers to feel like you can kill anything off putting, but I understand different people are different, and fudd is always a personally defined word. I general i save it for semi auto haters usually

 

[JohnJohnson]

5 consecutive hits at 1800 yards

Is there a video for this? Kind of wondering size of target and whether it was his rifle / starting from cold bore. Or if it was a rifle that people were taking turns on and all he had to figure out was a wind call.

 

[Schmo]

Or if it was a rifle that people were taking turns on and all he had to figure out was a wind call.

Even if it was wind call only, you gotta be good on the trigger to hit at a mile.

 

[JohnJohnson]

Even if it was wind call only, you gotta be good on the trigger to hit at a mile.

I've only shot to 1300 yards but taking a rifle that's already got the elevation dialed perfectly, probably being told at least a starting wind call, then taking two shots to refine that wind call, and then connecting doesn't sound horribly difficult for non-casual shooters. I don't think that necessarily demonstrates high level long range knowledge. But hey I've never shot a mile so it may be more advanced than I'm giving him credit for.

 

[Justin_Tree]

I am surprised that there is so much dislike of JVB. Anytime I listen to him on his podcast I feel like he has well articulated justification for his views. I feel the same when I listen or read what Form has to say.

The biggest variation in their opinions seem to be bullet choice and I would love to hear them debate their opinions. I have heard JVB on many occasions recommend only monos or bonded bullets for small calibers on large game which is the opposite of Forms opinion. It seems like there is a new “fixed vs mechanical” argument in the shooting space when it comes to mono/bonded vs match.

 

[LongWayAround]

When a guy claims you have to shoot through a foot of muscle on an elk, I stop listening to them.

 

[JohnJohnson]

The biggest variation in their opinions seem to be bullet choice and I would love to hear them debate their opinions. I have heard JVB on many occasions recommend only monos or bonded bullets for small calibers on large game which is the opposite of Forms opinion. It seems like there is a new “fixed vs mechanical” argument in the shooting space when it comes to mono/bonded vs match.

I never quite understood this part. The magnum vs smaller cartridge as to how people handle recoil, that's subjective and can at least be debated because how people handle recoil is different. The bullet choice thing isn't as subjective and there's a definite answer as to what causes more internal damage. As well as how much penetration is needed, through what resistance, etc.