Is training forced fetch ethical?

[AK_Skeeter]

Why force fetch? It is not a required precursor to e-collar or blind retrieve training.
I've done both successfully without force fetch.
I've been training labs for 35 years and most have been force-fetch, mostly because I run hunt tests.
I had one lab that during my sheep hunting days I hunted exclusively and I did not force fetch that lab.
She was a fantastic hunter and ran blinds just as good as my best labs.
My duck hunting partner also has hunted labs for 30+ years and has not force-fetched them and they have
been great duck dogs. With these dogs, every retrieve is a warm, freshly shot flier.

There are several reasons why one might force fetch.

1) If your dog is going to run hunt tests or field trials, he will have to deliver to hand
a cold bird with the scent of other dogs, or sometimes a cold, wet,"skanky" duck.
Very different than hunting where every bird is a warm, freshly shot flier.
Force-fetch gives you a training tool to deal with delivery to hand a cold, wet,"skanky" duck.

2) If your dog is going to run hunt tests or field trials, he will have to deliver to hand
after swimming for a retrieve. Most untrained dogs would naturally drop the bird
to shake when exiting a pond returning at the shoreline. Force fetch provides a
training tool to prevent this drop and shake behavior.

3) It provides a training tool for dealing with mouth problems.
For example, as a handler what do you do if your dog starts chomping birds?

4) It teaches pup that he must quickly react (fetch) on command in response to pressure (ear or toe pinch).
No longer is he retrieving only because that is what he wants. It provides a training framework
where there is a negative consequence (pressure) if there is not compulsive obedience.
This framework is important in some dogs for quick and non-loppy whistle sits for example.
This framework is important in some dogs for a consequence to a cast-refusal for example.

For hunt tests/field trials though force-fetch is a necessary tool for the four reasons cited above.

 

[Wingshooter]

I have force fetched some of my labs it isn't a pleasant experience if they're hard headed. If your dog is well bred and enjoys retrieving you have a good working relationship with your pup your on your way. I like to start by putting them on the table hooked up for the first few sessions and just pet the dog and look them over start out on a positive tone it seems to help vs if your dog drops a dummy and you drag it to the table for some angry correction.

 

[jimh406]

You shouldn't let anyone tell you how you should feel about your dog having discomfort. If you don't like it, tell your trainer. Maybe they will convince you why it's a good idea or maybe you can simply tell them not to.

However, it's generally a very quick process, so maybe he's already done with the painful part. But no, it's not the only way to train a hunting dog and was invented to make pointers and setters who frequently don't like to retrieve, retrieve reliably.

It doesn't matter if field trial trainers do it or not. That might make sense if you are a field trailer and are wanting to play that game. Otherwise, it's like fully blueprinting your engine on the car you just bought as a daily driver because race car engine builders do. It may not hurt anything, but then again, it might not be required either.

 

[Superdoo]

One thing that hasn't been discussed yet...
FF is used by trainers (payed pro's and DIY owner/ handlers) because it is the fastest way to get the dog reliable.
Sure there are methods that can be employed that are kinder and gentler. They just take exponentially longer to achieve the desired result. If you want to pay the trainer to work with your dog on just fetching for two months versus two weeks, that's your decision. If you're DIYing it and have all the time in the world, go for it.

 

[Buzby]

Is it ethical to hunt with a dog that won’t reliably retrieve game? In my opinion an ethical hunter should do what he can to make sure shot/crippled animals are found. A force fetched dog is a huge asset in finding and retrieving game.

Most dogs will retrieve when they want. Force fetch (I prefer to call it “trained retrieve”) will teach a dog to retrieve every time. Not just when he feels like it. My force fetched dog tracked a crippled pheasant for 1/4 mile, retrieved to hand. And was so proud to do it. Not many dogs will understand the need to do that, they’ll give up and start looking for another bird.

It’s not a big dog beating session. The correct method is to use only enough “force” (correction) as needed, and use plenty of praise. Some dogs can be trained almost entirely with praise, some require more pressure. Especially if you train the dog yourself it will help build your relationship, and set you up for better obedience, with a dog who is happy to make you happy.

 

[AK_Skeeter]

A bit of history:

Just as the blind retrieve concept was borrowed from herding dog trainers (Dave Elliot), retriever trainers borrowed force-breaking from pointing dog trainers. Back in the 1880s, pointing dog trainer David Sanborn developed force-breaking to teach elementary retrieving to bird dogs that have little or no natural retrieving instinct.

In the 1880s, when Mr. Sanborn "force breaking pointers", most pointing dog trainers were also horse trainers. Therefore, horse-training terms have always permeated the language of pointing dog trainers. For example, “Whoa!” Then, too, a horse trainer doesn’t train a horse; he “breaks” it. Thus, when a pointing dog trainer trains his dog in obedience, he “yard-breaks” him. When he steadies his dog to wing and shot, he “breaks” him and a steady pointing dog is a “broke dog.” Since among horse trainers, “breaking” is a synonym for “training,” the term force-breaking was quite natural for David Sanborn and his fellow pointing dog pros.

For many decades, retriever trainers did not force-fetch. For example, as late as 1949, James Lamb Free, in his classic, Training Your Retriever, all but foamed at the mouth at the very thought of force-breaking a retriever. (He did, however, recommend teaching retrievers to hold on command, apparently unaware that this is the first step in force-breaking.) However, gradually force-breaking became popular among many retriever trainers. The 1968 classic Charles Morgan on Retrievers recommends force-breaking every retriever. The procedure also was name a variety of terms including "trained retrieve", "force fetch", etc. There is a wide variety of methods of force-fetching including the classic "Non-Hell Week" approach by James Spencer, the conventional toe-hitch used primarily by pointer trainers, the training table approach, the "SmartFetch" approach by Evan Graham, and the non-ear pinch e-collar approach by Bill Hillman.

Force-fetch is rare among pro trainers in the UK, primarily because in their trials every retrieve is
a live shot bird unlike US trials where cold, wet, skanky ducks can occur.

 

[AK_Skeeter]

One thing that hasn't been discussed yet...
FF is used by trainers (payed pro's and DIY owner/ handlers) because it is the fastest way to get the dog reliable.
Sure there are methods that can be employed that are kinder and gentler. They just take exponentially longer to achieve the desired result. If you want to pay the trainer to work with your dog on just fetching for two months versus two weeks, that's your decision. If you're DIYing it and have all the time in the world, go for it.

Force-fetch is not fast, it is a time-consuming daily process that can take weeks and requires patience and persistence. It does not make a dog reliable, training makes a dog reliable (with or without force-fetch).
Force fetch is a tool primarily for dealing with any potential mouth problems and for reliable delivery to hand.

 

[KurtR]

Force-fetch is not fast, it is a time-consuming daily process that can take weeks and requires patience and persistence. It does not make a dog reliable, training makes a dog reliable (with or without force-fetch).
Force fetch is a tool primarily for dealing with any potential mouth problems and for reliable delivery to hand.

Also as I understand from talking with people like Evan Graham its a building block for teaching the dog the pressure on pressure off concept that will come into play when your going to pile work and transitioning to more advanced concepts

 

[Dogman-K]

Please forgive an old man, I do not intend to brag but to convey that what I state comes from a vast amount of experience that I was fortunate to have garnered over the years. Dogs are my passion!

I trained field trial labradors for many years (1967-2000) and in my experience and after training over 100 dogs, I truly believe, if done correctly, it is not only ethical and humane but mandatory if you want a truly reliable dog. On a side note, the term force training is a very negative term for attaining a conditioned response.

Force training, as with any obedience training, requires teaching small concepts in progressive steps, using the minimum amount of stimulus required to shape the proper behavior. If the dog doesn’t know what you want, you cannot force!

Most labradors and other retriever breeds can be coaxed into retrieving BUT ONE DAY WILL NOT... you can bet the farm on it. When that happens, most of the time the owner gets frustrated and that’s when the unethical behavior of the human comes into play because the owner has no tool to remedy the issue.
The whole purpose of force training is to give the owner a tool to use, that when the inevitable occur, that the dog understands how to correct its behavior.

 

[*zap*]

A dogs natural inclinations will get the best of any totally reward based training system, you can take that to the bank. The best method to train any dog is via an electronic collar but the caveat to that is the person training the dog needs to know how to go about it. Imo, not many people know the subtleties to that type of training and there lies the problem with things being 'unethical'. In addition the lack of consistency across the board when dealing with a dog in a family situation is a big issue.

Basically a dog is going to do what is in its best interest and you need to correctly explain that doing what you tell it to do is in its best interest without using excessive force unless all other means have been completely exhausted. Even then the force applied needs to be applied correctly in order to get the dog to understand what it needs to do or not do ....it is strictly business and no emotions should be involved.

 

[Chuckybmd]

Is it ethical to hunt with a dog that won’t reliably retrieve game? In my opinion an ethical hunter should do what he can to make sure shot/crippled animals are found. A force fetched dog is a huge asset in finding and retrieving game.

Most dogs will retrieve when they want. Force fetch (I prefer to call it “trained retrieve”) will teach a dog to retrieve every time. Not just when he feels like it. My force fetched dog tracked a crippled pheasant for 1/4 mile, retrieved to hand. And was so proud to do it. Not many dogs will understand the need to do that, they’ll give up and start looking for another bird.

It’s not a big dog beating session. The correct method is to use only enough “force” (correction) as needed, and use plenty of praise. Some dogs can be trained almost entirely with praise, some require more pressure. Especially if you train the dog yourself it will help build your relationship, and set you up for better obedience, with a dog who is happy to make you happy.

Very good point.

 

[Chuckybmd]

Please forgive an old man, I do not intend to brag but to convey that what I state comes from a vast amount of experience that I was fortunate to have garnered over the years. Dogs are my passion!

I trained field trial labradors for many years (1967-2000) and in my experience and after training over 100 dogs, I truly believe, if done correctly, it is not only ethical and humane but mandatory if you want a truly reliable dog. On a side note, the term force training is a very negative term for attaining a conditioned response.

Force training, as with any obedience training, requires teaching small concepts in progressive steps, using the minimum amount of stimulus required to shape the proper behavior. If the dog doesn’t know what you want, you cannot force!

Most labradors and other retriever breeds can be coaxed into retrieving BUT ONE DAY WILL NOT... you can bet the farm on it. When that happens, most of the time the owner gets frustrated and that’s when the unethical behavior of the human comes into play because the owner has no tool to remedy the issue.
The whole purpose of force training is to give the owner a tool to use, that when the inevitable occur, that the dog understands how to correct its behavior.

Thank you for your perspective. Especially noting that forced fetch tends to offer more reliable outcomes.

 

[Chuckybmd]

A bit of history:

Just as the blind retrieve concept was borrowed from herding dog trainers (Dave Elliot), retriever trainers borrowed force-breaking from pointing dog trainers. Back in the 1880s, pointing dog trainer David Sanborn developed force-breaking to teach elementary retrieving to bird dogs that have little or no natural retrieving instinct.

In the 1880s, when Mr. Sanborn "force breaking pointers", most pointing dog trainers were also horse trainers. Therefore, horse-training terms have always permeated the language of pointing dog trainers. For example, “Whoa!” Then, too, a horse trainer doesn’t train a horse; he “breaks” it. Thus, when a pointing dog trainer trains his dog in obedience, he “yard-breaks” him. When he steadies his dog to wing and shot, he “breaks” him and a steady pointing dog is a “broke dog.” Since among horse trainers, “breaking” is a synonym for “training,” the term force-breaking was quite natural for David Sanborn and his fellow pointing dog pros.

For many decades, retriever trainers did not force-fetch. For example, as late as 1949, James Lamb Free, in his classic, Training Your Retriever, all but foamed at the mouth at the very thought of force-breaking a retriever. (He did, however, recommend teaching retrievers to hold on command, apparently unaware that this is the first step in force-breaking.) However, gradually force-breaking became popular among many retriever trainers. The 1968 classic Charles Morgan on Retrievers recommends force-breaking every retriever. The procedure also was name a variety of terms including "trained retrieve", "force fetch", etc. There is a wide variety of methods of force-fetching including the classic "Non-Hell Week" approach by James Spencer, the conventional toe-hitch used primarily by pointer trainers, the training table approach, the "SmartFetch" approach by Evan Graham, and the non-ear pinch e-collar approach by Bill Hillman.

Force-fetch is rare among pro trainers in the UK, primarily because in their trials every retrieve is
a live shot bird unlike US trials where cold, wet, skanky ducks can occur.

A bit of history:

Just as the blind retrieve concept was borrowed from herding dog trainers (Dave Elliot), retriever trainers borrowed force-breaking from pointing dog trainers. Back in the 1880s, pointing dog trainer David Sanborn developed force-breaking to teach elementary retrieving to bird dogs that have little or no natural retrieving instinct.

In the 1880s, when Mr. Sanborn "force breaking pointers", most pointing dog trainers were also horse trainers. Therefore, horse-training terms have always permeated the language of pointing dog trainers. For example, “Whoa!” Then, too, a horse trainer doesn’t train a horse; he “breaks” it. Thus, when a pointing dog trainer trains his dog in obedience, he “yard-breaks” him. When he steadies his dog to wing and shot, he “breaks” him and a steady pointing dog is a “broke dog.” Since among horse trainers, “breaking” is a synonym for “training,” the term force-breaking was quite natural for David Sanborn and his fellow pointing dog pros.

For many decades, retriever trainers did not force-fetch. For example, as late as 1949, James Lamb Free, in his classic, Training Your Retriever, all but foamed at the mouth at the very thought of force-breaking a retriever. (He did, however, recommend teaching retrievers to hold on command, apparently unaware that this is the first step in force-breaking.) However, gradually force-breaking became popular among many retriever trainers. The 1968 classic Charles Morgan on Retrievers recommends force-breaking every retriever. The procedure also was name a variety of terms including "trained retrieve", "force fetch", etc. There is a wide variety of methods of force-fetching including the classic "Non-Hell Week" approach by James Spencer, the conventional toe-hitch used primarily by pointer trainers, the training table approach, the "SmartFetch" approach by Evan Graham, and the non-ear pinch e-collar approach by Bill Hillman.

Force-fetch is rare among pro trainers in the UK, primarily because in their trials every retrieve is
a live shot bird unlike US trials where cold, wet, skanky ducks can occur.

Thank you for providing the background. I had not realized, how extensive the history was.

 

[Chuckybmd]

To the OP, how much trust do you have that you have selected a good trainer? That would be the key question to me if it were my dog. "Force Fetch" may mean different things to different trainers and it is not a fair summation of the process as I learned it. I would suggest that you talk with your trainer about how it is being done, why and the whole training sequence, do your research and then decide.

I trust the trainer. He does train professionally and does compete in field trials. My lab is a sweetheart but she was excited to see us the day we visited and needed to be corrected more than usual.

 

[TurkeyReaper69]

Dog trainer here at a very reputable well known kennel,
I teach force fetch by tying a string around the dogs toe and pulling down applying pressue. They definitely don't like it but 2 minutes later and they are back to normal tail wagging. It is what it is

 

[2ski]

Why force fetch? It is not a required precursor to e-collar or blind retrieve training.
I've done both successfully without force fetch.
I've been training labs for 35 years and most have been force-fetch, mostly because I run hunt tests.
I had one lab that during my sheep hunting days I hunted exclusively and I did not force fetch that lab.
She was a fantastic hunter and ran blinds just as good as my best labs.
My duck hunting partner also has hunted labs for 30+ years and has not force-fetched them and they have
been great duck dogs. With these dogs, every retrieve is a warm, freshly shot flier.

There are several reasons why one might force fetch.

1) If your dog is going to run hunt tests or field trials, he will have to deliver to hand
a cold bird with the scent of other dogs, or sometimes a cold, wet,"skanky" duck.
Very different than hunting where every bird is a warm, freshly shot flier.
Force-fetch gives you a training tool to deal with delivery to hand a cold, wet,"skanky" duck.

2) If your dog is going to run hunt tests or field trials, he will have to deliver to hand
after swimming for a retrieve. Most untrained dogs would naturally drop the bird
to shake when exiting a pond returning at the shoreline. Force fetch provides a
training tool to prevent this drop and shake behavior.

3) It provides a training tool for dealing with mouth problems.
For example, as a handler what do you do if your dog starts chomping birds?

4) It teaches pup that he must quickly react (fetch) on command in response to pressure (ear or toe pinch).
No longer is he retrieving only because that is what he wants. It provides a training framework
where there is a negative consequence (pressure) if there is not compulsive obedience.
This framework is important in some dogs for quick and non-loppy whistle sits for example.
This framework is important in some dogs for a consequence to a cast-refusal for example.

For hunt tests/field trials though force-fetch is a necessary tool for the four reasons cited above.
View attachment 407737

So would you say if I'm having issues with mine crunching pigeons as we train for the NA, that I should force fetch him eventually? I'll wait until after the NA but you can hear bones crunching while he has the bird in his mouth. And the thing is, he is soft mouthed with most. I think the issue was, the first time he had a bird in his mouth I let him play too long and he started tearing it apart eventually.

 

[pk_]

Think of it not as teaching the dog to fetch, but teaching the dog that it cannot, not fetch. Consider the ethics here when the dog’s job is to retrieve game that you may be physically unable to. If the dog decides he won’t go, if you have this foundation of fetch training (which gets overlayed into the e-collar) you now have a simple way to ‘force’ the dog to retrieve the game, in a way that he understands and has been trained to do. Instead of just getting mad and yelling at him or throwing sticks into the water near the duck and what ever other clever ‘tricks’ we may come up with on the fly.

If done well it doesn’t cause more than minor discomfort. Think of it as someone pinching your shoulder(or ear I guess) to get you to turn and swat their hand. Would they need to pinch you hard enough to ‘hurt’ you before you smacked their hand?

If someone is causing real pain to a dog during force fetch I believe they are doing it wrong or the dog has been allowed to develop some real problems and has been put in a bad spot.

Disclaimer, I have only force fetched my first dog recently, but it took very few reps of very light pressure, nothing that made me feel uneasy at all. It also changed the way the dog responds to almost all other training commands and sessions.

I also don’t believe that all dogs need to be force fetched, but I do believe, that most should be…

Edit: Not sure what happened but a bunch of the replies didn’t show until after I replied and much of this was already brought up. Lots of great replies from guys with more experience

 

[JGoody]

only really needed for hunt tests

 

[KurtR]

only really needed for hunt tests

How do you do pile work ?

 

[jimh406]

How do you do pile work ?

You don't. But is that a problem with most hunters?