Is training forced fetch ethical?

[KurtR]

You don't. But is that a problem with most hunters?

What do you do when the bird sails 200 yards out and dog does not mark it?

 

[jimh406]

What do you do when the bird sails 200 yards out and dog does not mark it?

Force fetch isn’t equivalent to handling.

 

[KurtR]

Force fetch isn’t equivalent to handling.

It’s the building block that starts it all. There is no good reason not to force fetch a retriever.

 

[jimh406]

It’s the building block that starts it all. There is no good reason not to force fetch a retriever.

You are entitled to believe whatever you want, but there are plenty of retrievers who’ve never had that training that work just fine.

 

[Zeke6951]

I have an English Springer Spaniel. I did not force fetch train her at first. I started early getting her to retrieve by giving treats when she brought the dummy back. That did not produce reliable retrieves. I took her quail hunting when she was a year or two old. She work great. She found most of the quail we shot, but she would not retrieve them. Sometimes she would bring the bird half way, other times just find and play with it, run off a bit when I went to get the bird from her. That spring I started force fetch training. I built the table, put up the cable, the whole works. I did not work her on the table 45 minutes to an hour 1time a day. I worked her 10 minutes at the most maybe 10 to 15 time a day. At first I had to physically pick her up and hook her to the cable against her will. After a week or so I could open the kennel door and tell her to get up and she would run, get up on the table and be waiting with her little short tail just a blur. She really enjoyed the one on one attention she was getting for that little bit of time. I did have to pinch her ear at first. She learned quickly. When the time came to do the drill off the table she would sometimes get distracted and refuse to either pick up the dummy or would not bring it to me. Again a little ear pinch to remind her what she was supposed to do. In 2020 I took her to SD pheasant hunting. We never lost a bird and she retrieved every bird shot. One was shot in the head and went straight up and then sailed at least 500 yards into a bean field with about 10" of snow. Bella did not see it fall. I got close enough to send her for it. The bird tried to get up and she caught it. It did get away 3 times before she finally made back to me. That one retrieve made the force fetch worth it.

 

[AK_Skeeter]

So would you say if I'm having issues with mine crunching pigeons as we train for the NA, that I should force fetch him eventually? I'll wait until after the NA but you can hear bones crunching while he has the bird in his mouth. And the thing is, he is soft mouthed with most. I think the issue was, the first time he had a bird in his mouth I let him play too long and he started tearing it apart eventually.

I would start with a gloved hand and hold for 2 seconds with no rolling, no crunching. 2-seconds of praise, then drop command. 2-seconds is quick...but 2 seconds of success if better than 30 seconds of fighting and failure. Then gradually extend the duration of a perfect hold until eventually pup can reliably hold a gloved hand for several minutes. Then transition to a paint roller, a bumper, a partially frozen bird , a fully thawed bird, a freshly shot bird, each with perfect hold. Once pup can hold reliably and walk at heel, then I would progress to force-fetch. Patience and Persistence are key.

 

[BowForElk]

Some great information to consider. Thanks.

 

[arock]

Haven't force fetched my pointer. Haven't had a huge issue with him not bringing the bird to my hand (eventually) either.

He was destroying birds at the beginning of the season and by the end he was picking them up by the back and delivering them in good shape. It just took him some time to figure out how to carry the bird. The versatile breeds were also made to murder small furry things and are going to have hard mouths more often then not. I had the luxury of being patient and the torn up ones make great stock and soup. Some people are less so.

He likes to do a victory lap - which is somewhat annoying. Mainly, he is just so damn excited to bring me a thing that he overshoots me or crashes into my legs. I'm sure I could put him on a table for a week and clean that up. Or I can continue to work on his recall (without the lap) and polishing his fetch. As he's maturing we are working on getting him more dialed in. I have the time to do this stuff and enjoy the work and challenge of figuring him out. If he starts to get unreliable then I'll get him up on the table.

I think more of the fetching desire is killed by continually throwing stuff and the dog losing interest then anything else. Then there aren't many options other than foreced fetch after that happens.

Either way, its a good tool if needed but I don't think its 100% necessary.

 

[ianpadron]

There is nothing "unethical" about FF.

Guys that are too heavy handed with FF are too heavy handed with every other aspect of their dog's training.

When done properly, FF irons out basically every common retrieving issue you typically see in a dog.

 

[WCB]

If done correctly...yes it is. Just like any other ethical/moral question it is individual to a person. Abuse is not but correction to the correct degree is.

Also, if you own French Brittanys like we do you realize you can look at them wrong and their emotionally damaged hahaha so minimal pressure on most anything is needed. At least in my experience.

 

[Billy Goat]

Retrievers have been breed for however long to retrieve, it's a natural instinct for them.


I'm curious if that natural instinct/want starts to go away with FF. It was developed by a trainer who was handling dogs that didn't have it. So now, you basically aren't selecting for it in breeding with top FT labs.

 

[Gatorgrizz27]

Retrievers have been breed for however long to retrieve, it's a natural instinct for them.


I'm curious if that natural instinct/want starts to go away with FF. It was developed by a trainer who was handling dogs that didn't have it. So now, you basically aren't selecting for it in breeding with top FT labs.

I don’t really see it that way, but it’s an interesting point.

I don’t think breeders cull like they used to either, so you’re left with either a diluted “breed standard”, or an increasingly smaller and more incestual “paper breeding” which leads to more health problems. One of the reasons dogs like GSP’s seem to have fewer issues is that they are a “newer” breed with a variety of genetics.

I equate force fetching more like an older kid who loves to play basketball, but from time to time just doesn’t “feel like it”.

You remind them that they made a commitment, people are depending on them, and “feelings” are secondary.

The dogs still want to retrieve, but from time to time they are prone to being “lazy“. You‘re simply reminding them that it’s not an option.

(For the people who will undoubtedly rail against me for forcing kids to play sports to fulfill “my dreams”, and take up all of their time with a single focus, burn them out, etc, I’m not much of a sports fan at all, it’s just an analogy).

 

[Billy Goat]

I don’t really see it that way, but it’s an interesting point.

I don’t think breeders cull like they used to either, so you’re left with either a diluted “breed standard”, or an increasingly smaller and more incestual “paper breeding” which leads to more health problems. One of the reasons dogs like GSP’s seem to have fewer issues is that they are a “newer” breed with a variety of genetics.

I equate force fetching more like an older kid who loves to play basketball, but from time to time just doesn’t “feel like it”.

You remind them that they made a commitment, people are depending on them, and “feelings” are secondary.

The dogs still want to retrieve, but from time to time they are prone to being “lazy“. You‘re simply reminding them that it’s not an option.

(For the people who will undoubtedly rail against me for forcing kids to play sports to fulfill “my dreams”, and take up all of their time with a single focus, burn them out, etc, I’m not much of a sports fan at all, it’s just an analogy).

I come from herding dogs, so when I trained my lab, I just encouraged his drive, while controlling it. Just how I learned.



He ain't a FT dog, he's a meat dog. And he can't herd, can't figure out how to teach an outrun, but he does drive and load trailers well.

 

[KurtR]

I come from herding dogs, so when I trained my lab, I just encouraged his drive, while controlling it. Just how I learned.



He ain't a FT dog, he's a meat dog. And he can't herd, can't figure out how to teach an outrun, but he does drive and load trailers well.

Ff has nothing to do with actually building drive in a retriever that’s well bred that’s done well before it’s time to do ff. It’s a building block that also makes the dog as reliable as can be no dog is 100% some times they just do dog things.

 

[cuttiebrownbow]

It’s ethical and I thinks it is just misunderstood from people who haven’t seen an excellent trainer do it.


FF takes about a month and the ear pinch is used in one or two sessions out of the entire month.

I think as a hunter our goal is to leave no game that has been shot in the field. Sloppy retrieve work loses birds. Hot dogs drop birds.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Billy Goat]

Ff has nothing to do with actually building drive in a retriever that’s well bred that’s done well before it’s time to do ff. It’s a building block that also makes the dog as reliable as can be no dog is 100% some times they just do dog things.

Right.


I never said anything in relation to FF and drive, just that I used his drive to train him instead.


I'm not against FF at all, my comment was just about if the retriever instinct will continue in the top FT breeding.


For me, drive is the most powerful thing to keep a dog working. I had a dog attacked by a coyote, he was over a hill and I didn't know it happened, he was missing for a bit but when he reappeared he was still working, tho dragging a huge flap of his stomach. Same dog also impaled himself on a downed branch, had a 14" broken off piece of walnut thru his chest cavity, resting on his heart, collapsing one lung. Kept working then too.

Drive is what kept him going, not pressure.

 

[2ski]

I don’t really see it that way, but it’s an interesting point.

I don’t think breeders cull like they used to either, so you’re left with either a diluted “breed standard”, or an increasingly smaller and more incestual “paper breeding” which leads to more health problems. One of the reasons dogs like GSP’s seem to have fewer issues is that they are a “newer” breed with a variety of genetics.

This is very true. So many people just see $$$or want their kids to see puppies. Or just like their dog's personality and want him to pass on his genetics. And they don't look at the big picture. Like health and hunting and personality.

My dog has a great pedigree, has a great nose and looks great. I'll let him be breed to the right female, but I'm not just letting him be bred if just anyone ask me. I appreciate the work by breeders that led to him. I take that seriously. And more people should as well.

 

[Alberta Jonny]

Yes, but it should be done by a proven handler/trainer.

 

[Zeke6951]

cuttiebrownbow: Said that the ear pinch is only used a couple of times. This is true. I gave my opinion on FF earlier and didn't mention that. I do occasionally have to resort to an ear pinch just to remind my dog what is required of her. Refusal is not an option and it seldom happens.

 

[dtrkyman]

I had a Lab that all of the sudden started dropping birds, I think she was so eager to go get another she started this.

I don't think it took two or three sessions of force fetch and it was never a problem again, I think the ear pinch was only used a few times, she figured it out quick!

Absolutely ethical in my minimal experience.