Is the 6.8 western gaining traction or did the 7mm prc finish it off?

[Balderdash]

kids aren’t learning to tie flys or reload.

Based on the tone of your post, would it be logical to conclude that they're not staying off your lawn, either!

 

[Formidilosus]

Lots. I have 2 6.8 and a 1-8 270 wsm. I also own my own property and hunt and shoot a lot. The 170 berger is a hammer and has a similar bc to the 156 berger I can say it drops game much more dramatically them the 140 berger 6.5, at least out of the creedmoor which I have also used a bit. So did the 7mm /168 out of 7mm wsm. I also dont stick with one bullet type as try many in many different cartridges as I like to test things. I have killed game with 165 matrix, 165 ablr, 170 btip, 170 berger, 175 tgk in last few years and that is multiple of each except the 170 btip which is only 1 so far. I have about 250 170 bergers left on hand since you asked

The reality from your posts Form is you are stuck on eldms as being the best game bullet and will dismiss anything that does not use that bullet. It is a nice bullet but it is not a hunting bullet. All of the hunting heavy 7mm/6.5 bullets are similar bc to heavy .277 cal. There is no magic. And you are right the 6.8 does not do anything the 6.5/7 prc do not. However it does more than 6.5 prc and nearly as much as the 7 prc. Whether there ends up being market there or not is tbd but if you want more performance/heavier bullets than a 6.5 prc but not the recoil of a 7prc/300 mag get the 6.8W.

You folks keep dissing the 270 wsm but it was no different than the prcs. It came out and everybody made ammo for it and chambered it. The Jamison lawsuit and royalty derailed it some but it is still well supported. The RS darling Tikka still chambers for it let alone Win, Browning, Savage, CA (probably others)and I have recently seen Win, Horn, Barnes, and Nosler ammo for it. Both Peterson and ADG making brass for it this year. Not bad for a dead cartridge. How’s that 300/338 rcm support? So, when you think you are a prognosticator at least look outside of your small world. There are a lot of 27 cal fans who like the balance it offers for hunting…

Lou

So how much factory 6.8w have you bought? 100 rounds, 500 rounds?

As for the rest, you have no idea what I shoot, like or prefer.

 

[Balderdash]

Lots. I have 2 6.8 and a 1-8 270 wsm. I also own my own property and hunt and shoot a lot. The 170 berger is a hammer and has a similar bc to the 156 berger I can say it drops game much more dramatically them the 140 berger 6.5, at least out of the creedmoor which I have also used a bit. So did the 7mm /168 out of 7mm wsm. I also dont stick with one bullet type as try many in many different cartridges as I like to test things. I have killed game with 165 matrix, 165 ablr, 170 btip, 170 berger, 175 tgk in last few years and that is multiple of each except the 170 btip which is only 1 so far. I have about 250 170 bergers left on hand since you asked

The reality from your posts Form is you are stuck on eldms as being the best game bullet and will dismiss anything that does not use that bullet. It is a nice bullet but it is not a hunting bullet. All of the hunting heavy 7mm/6.5 bullets are similar bc to heavy .277 cal. There is no magic. And you are right the 6.8 does not do anything the 6.5/7 prc do not. However it does more than 6.5 prc and nearly as much as the 7 prc. Whether there ends up being market there or not is tbd but if you want more performance/heavier bullets than a 6.5 prc but not the recoil of a 7prc/300 mag get the 6.8W.

You folks keep dissing the 270 wsm but it was no different than the prcs. It came out and everybody made ammo for it and chambered it. The Jamison lawsuit and royalty derailed it some but it is still well supported. The RS darling Tikka still chambers for it let alone Win, Browning, Savage, CA (probably others)and I have recently seen Win, Horn, Barnes, and Nosler ammo for it. Both Peterson and ADG making brass for it this year. Not bad for a dead cartridge. How’s that 300/338 rcm support? So, when you think you are a prognosticator at least look outside of your small world. There are a lot of 27 cal fans who like the balance it offers for hunting…

Lou

Lou:

You've made a lot of good points over the years and I enjoy reading your take on things, and I'm not hating on a 6.8W, but there's just no way that a 6.8W can conclusively be considered higher performance than a 6.5 PRC. Any percieved difference in killing efficacy would be more related to ancillary factors such as bullet construction/performance, shot placement, impact velocities, etc, than disparate base performance.

 

[TaperPin]

Based on the tone of your post, would it be logical to conclude that they're not staying off your lawn, either!

I had to check, and sure enough two little jr high thugs were walking across my lawn - so I yelled, “Do you dipsticks even know what saami is?!” They said, “Screw saami - that’s the man wanting us to be sheep!” So I threw them both a beer and we fist bumped.

 

[Balderdash]

I had to check, and sure enough two little jr high thugs were walking across my lawn - so I yelled, “Do you dipsticks even know what saami is?!” They said, “Screw saami - that’s the man wanting us to be sheep!” So I threw them both a beer and we fist bumped.

Love it!

 

[Lou270]

So how much factory 6.8w have you bought? 100 rounds, 500 rounds?

As for the rest, you have no idea what I shoot, like or prefer.

Form - I have seen your MO on various posts here and not playing your games. I am not one of your followers but I am also not one of your haters. What I or you do or dont do has little to do with this conversation. I will say the same to you on what I shoot, like, etc. If you want to have a debate/conversation on the topic I will continue to listen with open mind and always willing to learn but keep it on topic

Lou

 

[wind gypsy]

Unfortunately you aren’t in possession of all of the facts! The 7 PRC was designed to shoot 185 to 195 low drag bullets. That is the why the 7 PRC SAAMI chamber has a free bore of .233. That is why the 7 PRC case is 2.280“. That is why the 7 PRC must be a Long Action Cartridge. The math works out that the 175 and 180 factory ammo are jumping alooong ways in the 7 PRC….

The maximum SAAMI cartridge length for a long action is 3.34”. All long action factory ammunition cannot exceed 3.34”. That is why you won’t see any 7 PRC heavy for caliber, high BC bullets in factory ammunition. That is why you will not see any high BC bullets heavier than 180 gr in 7 PRC factory ammunition.

A standard long action tikka mag is limited to a cartridge length of 3.37”. You can get after market mags that will give 3.40”. To reliably feed in a Tikka T3x action, the maximum cartridge length possible is 3.47”. But to get that 3.46-47” you will need to either drop the barreled action into a chassis or get AICS bottom metal and carve out the mag well inlet on a factory T3x stock. Either way you look at it it is a $700+ modification and you still won’t be able to effectively load the .284 heavies in a T3x Action.

This is what Ryan Furman (Long Range Only) has to say about the 7 PRC:

”At SAAMI length, the 7mm PRC will fit inside the 3.4” magazine boxes of last century’s design in SAAMI form. With the larger bullets, it will exceed the 3.4” magazine, but will not need a Wyatt’s box.”
The math works out better with this load: “180 Berger Hybrid - 020 off the lands 3.433" COAL in a SAAMI chamber. This is a sub .5 mo load but not quite as accurate as the lower node with the 180
Hybrid and H1000”

7MM PRC Cartridge Guide - Long Range Only

DISCLAIMER: This is a guide. Everything listed within is for information purposes only. All loads should be worked up carefully. We have seen loads that require as much as two grains of charge weight adjustment from one powder lot to another. We have seen as much as five grains of powder...

www.longrangeonly.com

190 A-Tip

View attachment 673622

You've been beating this "Tikka isn't long enough for 7PRC" drum for a long time and you've been wrong the entire time.

 

[Formidilosus]

Form - I have seen your MO on various posts here and not playing your games. I am not one of your followers but I am also not one of your haters. What I or you do or dont do has little to do with this conversation. I will say the same to you on what I shoot, like, etc. If you want to have a debate/conversation on the topic I will continue to listen with open mind and always willing to learn but keep it on topic

Lou

The MO is that 6.8W owners aren’t buying ammo- that’s why it won’t be a widely available cartridge.

 

[Lou270]

Lou:

You've made a lot of good points over the years and I enjoy reading your take on things, and I'm not hating on a 6.8W, but there's just no way that a 6.8W can conclusively be considered higher performance than a 6.5 PRC. Any percieved difference in killing efficacy would be more related to ancillary factors such as bullet construction/performance, shot placement, impact velocities, etc, than disparate base performance.

Balderdash - I don’t disagree at all. I dont think there is a noticeable difference in anything you said on your list. I do like the option of higher sd/heavier 6.8 bullets for better chance of exits on close shots, particularly with the softer LR bullets as I shoot a lot of pigs at closer ranges and dont have to switch loads. Does not mean heavier bullet kill faster or lighter bullet does not penetrate enough but nothing always drops in its tracks or shot in purely open cover where you can watch em fall.

When I say there is a performance difference, (for hunting )I mean on paper. That is what gets sold in the market place not actual field results and that is why I say 6.8 is more than 6.5 and less than 7 prc. You have a high bc bullets - 6.5/140 @ 2950, .277/165 @ 2950, 7mm/180 @ 2950. Folks have an option to pick their recoil/performance level. Practically, The 6.5 prc covers a ton of ground just like the old 270 which shot similar weight bullets and is probably the best of the bunch for most hunters. However, just like with the 270, a lot of folks prefer heavier bullets for some big game hunting whether real or percieved. This is the spot the 6.8W is targeted not to be the next world beater 6.5 creedmoor or extreme ballistic champ like the long action 7prc / 300 prc.

Lou

 

[Lou270]

The MO is that 6.8W owners aren’t buying ammo- that’s why it won’t be a widely available cartridge.

Well, sort of and this is one area I wholeheartedly agree with you on Win vs Hornady. When the 165 ablr load and in particular the 175 tgk load is available sells quickly. The 162 copper load and 170 sp loads are most available but not sexy. Folks who like the monos are happy but still minority.

What I don’t know is this because Winchester is just dumb or is it because they can only get large enough lots of these bullets periodically from nosler / sierra. These bullets are definitely available in handloader market right now but not sure enough quantity for a big ammo run. This is definite advantage to hornady as they are not only providing eldx/cx bullets to their lines but selling them to ATK (Rem/Fed) as well Im guessing because they had hard time getting berger/nosler. Weatherby flat out stated they are dropping Nosler becuase of availabilty. Seems Nosler is catching/caught up but Sierra seems still behind

Lou

 

[bmart2622]

Maybe they dont spend money to produce a lot of 6.8W ammo because its not a big seller?

 

[Formidilosus]

Well, sort of and this is one area I wholeheartedly agree with you on Win vs Hornady. When the 165 ablr load and in particular the 175 tgk load is available sells quickly. The 162 copper load and 170 sp loads are most available but not sexy. Folks who like the monos are happy but still minority.

I’m trying to, and have been addressing the OP’s question and not trying to argue. The 7PRC didn’t finish off the 6.8W, the 6.8w never really got traction to begin with. It is in no man’s land- to much recoil for comp/shooting with sub par bullets, and pure older hunters don’t buy new rifles/cartriges and they don’t shoot enough.
It’s a well designed, and quite frankly a well balanced cartridge and caliber, but it’s stuck in a place with the smallest segment in the major markets- it’s too large for competition/fun shooting round, doesn’t have the projectiles available for true long range shooting, and hunters that want a .277 don’t buy many new rifles, and almost no ammo.
So the 6.8W is trying to work on the market that is tiny- hunters that don’t care about max LR bullet performance but do want a “magnum”, don’t care that factory ammo is relatively uncommon locally and expensive- the cheapest ammo made if almost $60 a box, the “good” ammo is almost $70; they reload, but don’t care that bullets optimized for the 6.8w are in short supply, and the for some reason want a .277. Of the type of person that wants all of that, how many buy new rifles in the latest chamberings?

Now flip that to why the 6.5 and 7PRC are, and will last- excellent widely available bullets that have very high BC’s and kill very well, excellent factory ammo that is readily available from multiple manufactures and is available for sub $40 box, with the parent company well known for supporting their creations; BC leading projectiles are everywhere, brass is readily available- everywhere you look you can see 6.5 and 7mm PRC supplies- and the 7PRC is one year old. Hornady shipped ammo out in stores before the rifles were available- that’s how you support a cartridge.



My personal feelings are that the 6.8W is a great magnum cartridge, .277 is largely an American thing which is cool. BUT, the support isn’t there for it. I am pragmatic before I am nostalgic and choosing between two cartridges that recoil virtually the same- one has better bullets, better support, better factory ammo, and a more dedicated parent company.

I hope 6.8W takes off, but the niche for magnum hunting cartridges has shrunk dramatically in the last 10 years, and is still shrinking. THAT is what the other manufacturers and older traditional hunters haven’t figured out. All the magnum hunting cartridges that don’t have a legit competition or military use will start disappearing as older people stop participating or die off. The days of boomers controlling the market with magnum hunting cartridges and high MV’s with parachute BC bullets are over.

 

[Ens Entium]

Maybe they dont spend money to produce a lot of 6.8W ammo because its not a big seller?

That's it right there. It's the same with the WSM that now only Winchester supports and even then is very difficult to find inventory. At this point the WSMs are basically wildcats for handloaders with lack of factory support now that Hornady and Federal stopped producing in quantity. I see the 6.8 Western going the same way.

 

[KenLee]

That's it right there. It's the same with the WSM that now only Winchester supports and even then is very difficult to find inventory. At this point the WSMs are basically wildcats for handloaders with lack of factory support now that Hornady and Federal stopped producing in quantity. I see the 6.8 Western going the same way.

Hornady and Barnes are spitting out 300wsm like crazy

 

[Mountainrancher]

I’m trying to, and have been addressing the OP’s question and not trying to argue. The 7PRC didn’t finish off the 6.8W, the 6.8w never really got traction to begin with. It is in no man’s land- to much recoil for comp/shooting with sub par bullets, and pure older hunters don’t buy new rifles/cartriges and they don’t shoot enough.
It’s a well designed, and quite frankly a well balanced cartridge and caliber, but it’s stuck in a place with the smallest segment in the major markets- it’s too large for competition/fun shooting round, doesn’t have the projectiles available for true long range shooting, and hunters that want a .277 don’t buy many new rifles, and almost no ammo.
So the 6.8W is trying to work on the market that is tiny- hunters that don’t care about max LR bullet performance but do want a “magnum”, don’t care that factory ammo is relatively uncommon locally and expensive- the cheapest ammo made if almost $60 a box, the “good” ammo is almost $70; they reload, but don’t care that bullets optimized for the 6.8w are in short supply, and the for some reason want a .277. Of the type of person that wants all of that, how many buy new rifles in the latest chamberings?

Now flip that to why the 6.5 and 7PRC are, and will last- excellent widely available bullets that have very high BC’s and kill very well, excellent factory ammo that is readily available from multiple manufactures and is available for sub $40 box, with the parent company well known for supporting their creations; BC leading projectiles are everywhere, brass is readily available- everywhere you look you can see 6.5 and 7mm PRC supplies- and the 7PRC is one year old. Hornady shipped ammo out in stores before the rifles were available- that’s how you support a cartridge.



My personal feelings are that the 6.8W is a great magnum cartridge, .277 is largely an American thing which is cool. BUT, the support isn’t there for it. I am pragmatic before I am nostalgic and choosing between two cartridges that recoil virtually the same- one has better bullets, better support, better factory ammo, and a more dedicated parent company.

I hope 6.8W takes off, but the niche for magnum hunting cartridges has shrunk dramatically in the last 10 years, and is still shrinking. THAT is what the other manufacturers and older traditional hunters haven’t figured out. All the magnum hunting cartridges that don’t have a legit competition or military use will start disappearing as older people stop participating or die off. The days of boomers controlling the market with magnum hunting cartridges and high MV’s with parachute BC bullets are over.

Might have to disagree with you on two things form.

In my area (northern Colorado southern Wyoming) I haven’t been inside a major outdoor store that didn’t have at least a couple boxes of 6.8 western. It’s usually the copper impact load but it is available. As far as 7prc it’s usually only the 180 eldm load and occasionally the eldx load. Price wise they are always within 10 dollars of each other. So at least as far as I can tell availability and price per round is almost identical.

As far as who the 6.8 was designed/marketed for, I really don’t think it’s trying for nostalgic 270 lovers. I think the bulk of the marketing I’ve seen is being pushed towards the new age social media type hunters that need that “all around” cartridge. It’s always felt like it’s trying to be that “slap a vortex viper on top and kill chit at a grand” easy button everyone wants. Which is very similar to what 7prc marketing has boiled down to. It’s never going to have cm/prc success however I don’t think it needs that to not be considered a failure.

 

[atmat]

It’s usually the copper impact load but it is available

But who wants to hunt with that?

 

[Mountainrancher]

But who wants to hunt with that?

Not me and many others on this sight but I think the masses don’t care one way or the other.

 

[atmat]

Not me and many others on this sight but I think the masses don’t care one way or the other.

That’s probably a fair point I’ll concede regarding hunting.

But hunters make up an incredibly small percentage of ammo sales. And recreational shooters aren’t wanting copper impact.

 

[Mountainrancher]

That’s probably a fair point I’ll concede regarding hunting.

But hunters make up an incredibly small percentage of ammo sales. And recreational shooters aren’t wanting copper impact.

No but to forms point recreational shooters aren’t wanting 6.8 western period.

 

[atmat]

No but to forms point recreational shooters aren’t wanting 6.8 western period.

I think we’re arguing the same thing then.